Duty sword advice

Hello all,

I am in need of a less-lethal impact weapon for my job. Everybody talks about telescopic batons, but it is very easy to harm an unintended target when deploying one in an actual situation, when you don't have the time to ask everybody to get out of the way as to not get hit accidentally. Plus they are just shoddily built weapons unless you pay more than one is worth.

For the past few years, the LAPD has used synthetic bokken as a baton. I think this is a better idea because of the increased reach and that I can use it two-handed, and defensively (to block strikes from weapons).

Any martial artists here to recommend a solid bokken? Price is not an issue for me if it is worth it.

If working security in large crowds, I can see how collapsible batons could be troublesome. If you want to stick with the clubbing weapon, I'd recommend a classic solid 24" baton to wear on your hip with training in Escrima emphasis on grappling and entrapments. This allows to maintain close quarters without bystander injuries.

Well to give advice one must know what you require. What are the rules of your work place? What training do you have with less lethal items? What are the requirements of your body type and environment? We could list items all day but for it to be effective we must know more about your needs/training/ and situations in which you may need it.

I would suggest training with sticks of various sizes.
6', 4', 2', 1', are generally the sizes you should know how to use.
Once you're good with sticks, you can feel free to pick a weapon based on your preferred stick size. I personally prefer the 5' staff, though that's uncommon.

EDIT:
Stick fighting can be extremely lethal as well, so whatever you're planning on doing, be careful. A clear hit to the wrong place at the wrong time can kill someone. I would suggest sticking with a baton. Stun batons are also interesting, but be aware of pacemakers.

MadHatter wrote: Well to give advice one must know what you require. What are the rules of your work place? What training do you have with less lethal items? What are the requirements of your body type and environment? We could list items all day but for it to be effective we must know more about your needs/training/ and situations in which you may need it.

I guess I can talk about my work, as long as I'm not specific.

I'm part of a rapid response team at a large indoor shopping center, one of the biggest in America. The post-9/11 terrorist paranoia, as well as the very real threat of mass shootings and escalating crime brought our arrangement into existence. I assure you, every large mall has a small specialist force. Our mall only has three, in addition to a (for the size of the mall) small group of armed security with only handguns and pepper spray.

We get to choose and customize our duty setup, within broad limits, so I want to use a bokken for the sort of situations where pepper spray has ceased to be effective, but guns would be overkill (pun intended). These sort of incidents happen regularly, with almost every big Air Jordan release, and I am getting sick of it.

As for my weapons skills, I have a competent, intermediate, working knowledge of escrima. I also am highly advanced in ninjutsu, but I don't think it falls under the traditional category of martial arts.

Thank you all for your responses. I hope somebody can recommend a durable bokken.

TheDude wrote: I would suggest training with sticks of various sizes.
6', 4', 2', 1', are generally the sizes you should know how to use.
Once you're good with sticks, you can feel free to pick a weapon based on your preferred stick size. I personally prefer the 5' staff, though that's uncommon.

EDIT:
Stick fighting can be extremely lethal as well, so whatever you're planning on doing, be careful. A clear hit to the wrong place at the wrong time can kill someone. I would suggest sticking with a baton. Stun batons are also interesting, but be aware of pacemakers.

A staff would be impractical. As for shorter escrima sticks, they could be an option. I doubt a rattan stick or a bokken would be any more potentially lethal than one of those telescopic police/flea market batons. I am very ambivalent about them.

As for electroshock weapons- you have only two choices. Overpriced stuff that works, or flea market Chinese crap that breaks not long after you buy it. I do have a Taser on my belt, but ONLY so that, when I have to use my 10mm, I can say that the situation called for it, rather than being guilty of neglect by not having other potential options.

There are a few reasons why I wouldn't suggest using a bokken. First, because the applied force will be more damaging with a larger weapon (I know from experience) if you have to use it, which makes it far more likely that you would seriously injure someone with a bokken rather than a baton. In addition, I believe that the shorter baton is better for defense, as the shorter length inevitably gives you more wrist-based control over the weapon. This will allow you to parry and respond with greater efficacy than with a bokken. A smaller point, but an important one, is that it's simply easier to carry a baton than a bokken.

But if you are strictly interested in the bokken, there are a few pointers I can give you. You'll be looking for something in bamboo, since it's a reasonably hard wood while still being flexible, allowing you to have less of a shock upon contact. I'd also suggest using a stick of about 3.5 feet. While not strictly a bokken, the shinai used in Kendo is a good applicant. This is a fairly well reviewed shinai.

Usually I wouldn't advocate anyone going out and buying weapons, but if you're going to get a wooden sword, make sure it's a good, flexible wood like bamboo.

TheDude wrote: There are a few reasons why I wouldn't suggest using a bokken. First, because the applied force will be more damaging with a larger weapon (I know from experience) if you have to use it, which makes it far more likely that you would seriously injure someone with a bokken rather than a baton. In addition, I believe that the shorter baton is better for defense, as the shorter length inevitably gives you more wrist-based control over the weapon. This will allow you to parry and respond with greater efficacy than with a bokken. A smaller point, but an important one, is that it's simply easier to carry a baton than a bokken.

But if you are strictly interested in the bokken, there are a few pointers I can give you. You'll be looking for something in bamboo, since it's a reasonably hard wood while still being flexible, allowing you to have less of a shock upon contact. I'd also suggest using a stick of about 3.5 feet. While not strictly a bokken, the shinai used in Kendo is a good applicant. This is a fairly well reviewed shinai.

Usually I wouldn't advocate anyone going out and buying weapons, but if you're going to get a wooden sword, make sure it's a good, flexible wood like bamboo.

I should have mentioned that the bokken is mainly used by the LAPD mounted police, not as part of a normal officer's duty setup. I myself wouldn't carry it all the time, only when needed. Me and the other two guys on the rapid response squad don't just walk around in the open. When we do, we are in plainclothes. We use maintenance hallways to get around, and we can therefore appear out of nowhere when a situation happens.

Maybe you don't like weapons, but this is my job. I am also a bit biased, because as a practitioner of escrima and ninjutsu, I use my martial arts knowledge as a tool, not as part of a competitive sport.

I would just use my tactical pen (which is just something I own and use as a pen, not part of my duty setup), but range is an issue. If I get in close and get bit by some Footlocker customer, I could get HIV or something. I have used it, though, on a deranged man in the bathroom who urinated on me when I was trying to eject him from the mall.

Well, from my experience with both bokken and shinai, the shinai is a much better weapon. It's easier to handle and hurts just as bad when you get hit with it. The more flexible nature of the shinai means that less stress is put on your joints, which means you'll be able to use it longer and hit harder with it. You whack someone with a bokken, the bokken can easily break or you can lose grip, but more importantly it's much harder to deliver the same amount of damage and recoil for a second attack. You whack someone with a shinai, you can pull back immediately and whack again with little to no problems. In addition, they're about the same length, and the shinai generally has a better grip, meaning that you'll have more control and be able to do more with it.

I would at least suggest trying both of them.

could always go with a pr24 baton, the one with a side handle like police used to carry (like tonfa)...the side handle allows you to spin the baton in close quarters generating more impact force when needed and offers a leverage point for arm traps, and choke holds....plus with its size you can apply escrima/arnis techniques as well....

If you get to perform your security duties in plainclothes, I would take the more ninjutsu approach and work your weapon into a disguise. I remember this one documentary where ninjas acting as the emperor security guards disguise themselves as groundskeepers, Vagrants and janitors. If the point is to hide in plain sight then I would dress as a different position of the staff, for example if the point is to hide in plain sight then I would dress as a different position of the staff, for example: if I'm a janitor I would carry a push broom with an easily detachable staff at least by foot-long or dressed as a random customer, Feign A lamp or some back trouble and carry a cane.

True, presence is an important deterrent to crime and patrolling in uniform with an obvious weapon as a bokken or a baton and this its self prevents crime. I guess the question to ask would be "what kind of security do you need?" Is the presence respected and in turn crime prevented or are there more situations where security guards are easily overwhelmed and unsuspecting back up is required for Public Safety.

they arent bokkens specifically, but

these work



a newer interpretation is this, which i think is a good idea conceptually, but i have never held one in my hands so my review is limited



http://www.rrbsystems.com/rapid-rotation-baton

also



http://www.coldsteel.com/Product/92PBH/INDIAN_WAR_CLUB.aspx

that peg/spike is removable

and last
ive always seen these called "gun stock war clubs" - because they were originally made from the stocks of rifles - you strike with either side, ive seen designs where the more powerful bludgeon is the unspiked side, but anyway the spike is obviously not an option where you work


http://www.coldsteel.com/Product/92PGS/GUNSTOCK_WAR_CLUB.aspx

i dont know if the cold steel model allows for you to remove the spike on the gun stock club or not, but that point brings me to my next suggestion, which is:

jedi build their own!

maybe you need something quickly, and if so then more than recommending a particular product i would just refer you to cold steel in general, they make high quality weaponry and their pricing is fair for everyone

but ultimately i would say that even if you dont have the tools to do it, and even if you dont consider yourself much of a craftsman, a war club or bokken or bludgeon is not, in the grand scheme of things, a complicated project (not to say it is EASY - its not)

imo, what you make for yourself will be more powerful for you, if you take the time and make the effort to do it well

lastly, lethality with bludgeon weapons imo is a matter of target selection, not weapon potential

if the weapon does not have the potential to be lethal then it is not, imo, an effective bludgeon weapon, because the force needed to crack someones leg or knee or elbow is not so far from the force needed to crack a skull

if it cant do one then it cant be counted on to do the other

---

edit

for further inspiration:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_(weapon)

It depends on your need really. A bokken would likely get in the way of most activities other than the conflict itself and might be harder to use in small spaces or in a large crowed. Then you're right back to your issue with the baton. If I were to carry one though I wouldn't use an actual bokken but more likely a simple round stick of about the same length. Then I'm not limited by it's shape.

A good bokken is designed to be shaped and balanced more like a sword and thus is harder to use as anything else. Something the size and shape of a solid broom handle would be good because then I could use it however I needed with ease.

For a while in Japan, after 1600, there were people similar to police called doshin (I think, I'm kind of blanking right now) that carried a Jo which was essentially just a 4 foot stick (they also carried a weapon that looked like a blunt Sai with only one prong called a jite). They used that as they were not high enough rank to be allowed a sword and their main duty was to keep bored, drunk Samurai from getting out of control without killing them. The Jo allowed a good non-lethal way to handle a drunk swordsman.

Personally, I still like the baton. It becomes small so as to not be in the way when not using it and then becomes larger to be used. But if you are truly that concerned with hurting an innocent while deploying it then I also recommend a more standard escrima stick. I like 24" but you can go with a size that works for you.

Ryujin's idea of the tonfa like baton would also work. The side handle adds a lot of options for hooking and trapping.

OB1Shinobi wrote: these work

those are what i was talking about....pr24 police batons....very effective....they can strike, thrust, block,shield, trap...

yeah, you were right
imo its just about the best design out there for a defense oriented bludgeon weapon, for the reasons you listed

EDIT
and with legal implications to consider its probably the best option in this situation

Thanks guys. I think I will go with the tonfa-type baton.

Honestly I wish I could just throw a couple (non-lethal) stinger grenades into the crowd, but there are often little kids in the Air Jordan stampede as well. Honestly, I wish the Foot Locker would just close. It's a huge liability to the mall. We already have enough planned terror to deal with, we don't need spontaneous feral behavior induced by athletic shoes.

I'd recommend you get a body camera and take lessons on how to disarm someone. This whole fictional terrorism threat is creating mass delusion and paranoia. Don't add to the police state by becoming a corporate security tyrant. I haven't stepped foot in a mall for over a decade but you're more likely to encounter a teenage gangster wannabe with a knife than a terrorist.

Whyte Horse wrote: I'd recommend you get a body camera and take lessons on how to disarm someone. This whole fictional terrorism threat is creating mass delusion and paranoia. Don't add to the police state by becoming a corporate security tyrant. I haven't stepped foot in a mall for over a decade but you're more likely to encounter a teenage gangster wannabe with a knife than a terrorist.

By "terror," we mean organized gang activity, though we don't rule out having to deal with Jihadists. We once had a suspicious group of Chechens that we dealt with without causing any alarm.

Also, the kids of today are not the kids of yesterday. Kids don't carry chromed .25 auto pistols and flea market switchblades anymore. I've confiscated several sawed-down semi-auto shotguns hidden inside backpacks, a full-auto Ruger 10/22, an endless list of high-capacity semi-auto pistols, a couple Desert Eagles, and even a sawed-down .50 Barrett. Not to mention all the weirdo left-wing kids who do half-assed terrorist acts to be cool.

Terrorism is hyped up in the media, but not fictional in the least. I am not contributing to the "police state" in any way. The mall is a private business, and the owners have the right to use whatever security measures they want, just as a US citizen has the right to own a weapon to defend their home or business.