Masculinity is Killing Men

i'm just sad i messed up my quote tags. lol

steamboat28 wrote: i'm just sad i messed up my quote tags. lol

Had a look, did an edit, think I fixed it for you, let me know if I fubar'd it.

To the topic, things like this sometimes help to have some working definitions outlined and I guess the first one would be what could we use (for discussions sake) as what we mean by 'masculinity'. I guess we could then split it into types to discuss different natures of influence to understand how they impact on individual physical and mental health but also social interaction. The nature seems to be behaviour, and example of influences to behaviour (masculinity types) could be cultural or physical... say c-masculinity and p-masculinity.

With those two types you could list some guesses at what might be unique behaviours and from there you could have a good basis to explore 'health' impacts, avoidance strategies or modifications (hopefully improvements!)! Observations from those tables might show trends which can be explained by other factors more easily when understood in this way. Also, I tend to view cultural behaviours as generally derived from physical to some extent, so it could also be interesting to create a entity-relationship diagram between those two types and any other linked factors.

But the fact of the matter is that this discussion never had a hope of going anywhere really interesting, at least not when we started wandering into random discussions about (what sounds to me like) a dystopian scifi comic pandering to a "men's rights activist" dream of the future.

The makers of armitage III are men's right's activists? You certainly keep yourself informed.

I don't recall English being your native language, but for reference, gender and biological sex != species. There isn't a "male/female" species. There's a male/female of the species. This is important because the major point in the definition of a species is that they be genetically similar enough to interbreed or exchange genetic information.

1.It's latin
2. I don't recall saying anything other than "WHEN men and women stop reproducing sexually THEN they will be different species. My only assumption here is about the future of human reproduction. Not about the meaning of a latin word, not that I'd ever claim your understanding of it to be affected by the fact you're not a native speaker, because that'd be rude.

The fact that two things are not equal does not automatically necessitate one being superior. Men and women are not equal (in a broad generic sense) in ability. Men perform some tasks better than women on average, and vice versa. This does not, however, mean that one is superior to the other.

Hmm, yes, that's exactly what it means. If my cooking skill is greater than yours, then my cooking is superior to yours. If we are different species, and a specie's success on earth is linked to its cooking ability, then I would become the dominant specie. You're part of the dominant specie now (everyone on totjo is), I'd really like to know why you guys are so butt-hurt over it.
Ddo you guys have a weird inferiority complex thing going on? Or maybe it's superiority?I don't know why you feel modern humans are exempt from the same rules that have ruled all life on earth since life began. Oh or are you one of them whatsit? Creation science something believer?

Synthetic organs (and children) have literally zero impact when it comes to fighting our primordial impulses

You guys seem to give these primordial impulses a lot of attention. Yet:
-Large amounts of men, and young ones too, are having vasectomies
-Large amounts of men have sex exclusively for the purpose of entertainment, and use technology or common sense to prevent insemination
-Men who actually want to reproduce, and use their primal instincts, etc, are only half as good at it as men were 100 years ago.
-Men dont really want relationships with women as much as they once did, and generally speaking are better off being gay. (men are increasingly likely to be gay)
-Large amounts of women use birth control techniques until they are unfit to carry children
-Large amounts of women have sex exclusively for the purpose of entertainment, and use technology and common sense to prevent insemination.
-Women who actually want to reproduce, and use their primal instincts, etc, are not nearly as good at it as women were 100 years ago, heck human females are probably the worst at giving birth. The babies just don't fit (they don't), pollution, poor health, make the human female in its current state, a very inefficient mother.
-Women don't really want relationships with men as much as they once did, and generally speaking are better off being lesbian (women are increasingly likely to be lesbian)
-SEX TOYS. Have you seen what's availabe now? No flesh can compete with that. Heck, if an arm-shaped pillow can do the trick in japan, how do you think a robotic sex doll is going to fail? Lol I literally just typed on google "realistic sex doll", clicked on the first link, and discovered they're even more advanced than I previously thought.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ukok0oeIFoQ

So, overall, I really feel that the whole "primal instincts will sort us out" premise is overused. As we are now, we require technology to continue to be a successful specie, and the direction we've taken suggests we will require more of it in the future, or face extinction. Is that what bugs you? Human extinction? You find it rude?

In case nobody else is willing to tell you, ren, so far in this thread you're the only one being inappropriate and rude.

Please supply evidence as to where I committed the offence and I will work toward correcting it.

I could just copy what you wrote. Would that make you happy?
Here you go.
The modern notion of masculinity can be highly toxic
men are responsible for the corruption of the masculine ideal
Competition has always been seen as a masculine ideal. (even by myself. Someone edited my earlier comments and that's why it looked like i was the only person in history who did not see competition as a masculine ideal. This is not the case. Everyone has always seen competition as a masculine ideal.)

Now that my statements don't oppose yours are they less rude?

ren wrote: Someone edited my earlier comments and that's why it looked like i was the only person in history who did not see competition as a masculine ideal...

I'm not aware of this.... if you think something untoward has happened feel free to PM concerns :side:

It makes me feel like a Mod

YOu known sir discovery masculinity through a killing aspect of a certain behavior , form a certain point if view. masculinity I think doesn't really kill a mind but a assert a judgment right a ways after your studies it is more evident that men are well studies and women too . After reading the hole article i think most of the manly hood are understood but in a way put down by a certain point of wiew. Finding how to be a men is often ockward .

Finding out trough memory is often good but derogating for too criticism . A men is also more attach too women when they are alright for there personality . The other around doesn't' work when you encounter alien's. for an other point if view . But I don't think masculinity is the wrong way too go and all the way too build around killing a mind thought potting out too a killing mode . These reference is good but very subjective thought out the universe .

Finally who want's to be a men and kill in advance not me. And that is direct mode too have masculinity because there is femininity . :lol:

When the truth is finally spoken, how many will listen?

Is not masculinity to a man exactly what femininity is to a woman? Why argue over such a point, because I can certainly see some of this degenerating into the realms of argument, and why cannot agreement be found here?

Any who wish to insult the male half of society does so from their own tainted experience of such, and the same for any who wish to do likewise for the female society. This must be looked at from an untainted view, one that puts aside personal experience, so as to avoid insult to others. Masculinity is simply the expressions of one's self from a man, and like all else this depends on the person itself rather than the world's male population as a whole.

If men were to come and make derogatory comments on a post about femininity we would be abused and likely kicked off this site because, as has been pointed out, men are judged too readily upon standards of the monsters that have perpetuated this feeling towards the male throughout history. We are not all such monsters, and to judge us so only shows the true nature of those that judge. The same argument can be made for femininity too, though put slightly different the essence would be the same.

The truth is that masculinity is dependant upon the person, such as femininity is expressed differently by each woman. We are often misjudged, though not always, and this must stop for society as a whole; What right does man have to judge woman, or woman man? We are all human beings, let us focus on humanity instead of on such trivial things as masculinity and femininity. If one thing can be achieved through this thread, let it be the agreement that we must leave such petty differences aside if we intend to go on as a community who accepts all and judges none, least of all upon their sexuality.

May the Force be with you always.

i tried to read this article again and i just couldnt do it

im sorry
its totally out of touch with reality

"the dangerous process of turning boys in to men" ??
thats not accurate

the process of becoming a man
i can only imagine
is much more streamlined and much less dangerous when there are mature men involved to guide it

ive had to figure it out fairlywell on my own and its nearly killed me

but it is THE DEFINITIVE JOURNEY of nearly every males life, if he learns to walk that journey deliberately

the article may touch on legit ideas but its presentation is rubbish

its not about being a violent person - its about being strong enough physically and mentally to take responsibility for the safety of ones loved ones in the reality of a world where violence exists

no one needs to be superman, but masculinity requires THE PURSUIT of physical prowess and social and familial accountability

these are somewhat psychological expressions of biological attributes

from a purely evolutionary standpoint it is a pretty compelling argument that men do have specific roles that we are physiologically adaped/evolved to fill

babies need to be taken care of - women have babies and are biologically equipped for this task
it is demanding and women need to be have a basically secure living situation to do it

so if youre not a baby or a woman, you play the part of the protector and provider

this is not misogyny, its biology

a man puts himself in a position to be a giver

the vast majority of men WANT to be masculine, and the vast maority of women WANT to be with a masculine man

compassion is a masculine virtue in the sense that it often comes as a natural result of an empowered man

the bitter, often, are bitter because of personal weakness or feelings of current or past helplessness - the man without compassion is dangerous to anyone around him, especially if he does develop some strength or influence

the man who is strong and level headed and knows his own strength will usually also be compassionate because he is not resentful or insecure

mostly, to be without pretense, to be honest, to be responsible for ones own life and direction, to be strong; especially to be strong enough to lead when necessary and secure enough to follow when appropriate, and with all of this, to realize ones worth without feeling entitled or superior

these are the ideals for a man to pursue

are they not also good for women?
sure, for everybody

but i cant say what women have to do to become women

but these are the things i have seen that men have to do to become good men

again, its about pursuing and working for them

its not something to judge ourselves for not living up to; to say "im not manly because i dont live up to _ ideal"
rather to say "i AM manly because i am PURSUING _ ideal"

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im not trying to preach at the choir or come off like a know it all

i understand most here already understand these things and also i may be missing a lot

but i also see that these qualities havent yet been overtly stated in the thread and i think its important in a conversation on this topic to go ahead and call it out -what IS masculinity?
the things ive mentioned make for a good starting point

i expect others may have ideas to add as well

I think this book sums it up well. As a side note, I am Pagan/Jedi so the biblical verses and references are not a sign of my faith but I believe the author does well with his explanation. Some may agree, many others probably will not.

Wild at Heart by John Eldridge.