What a Shaman sees in a mental Hospital.

Arkayik wrote: I do agree with your assessment of the shaman-types having to find a niche to survive, "brains over brawn". I don't agree that they were dead-weight or defectives. They survived precisely because they made a contribution. You can't propose survival of the fittest and then also imply they broke the rule.

I never said they broke the rule. I said they found a loophole. A reality many people are unwilling to confront is that the level of survival we only see in zombie films is the level of survival our ancestors fought through constantly, and there is no room whatsoever for a feeding a mouth that won't eventually pull its own weight. None. Division of labor in most early animist tribal societies is pretty typical, from what I've seen:

• Men hunt because they are typically stronger, faster, and have greater stamina, but little patience for minutiae. The hunt may take them far from home, be against a large animal, may require lots of maneuvering and motion, and it is not something the weak can do. They also tended toward gathering resources (rather than food) because of these same reasons.
• Women typically gather because of a variety of reasons closely knit to motherhood. Gathering is less stressful, but requires much more attention to detail, and while not always physically less strenuous, it kept them closer to home. In this way, while the men were hunting, the women could feed and raise children while still providing food and a layer of defense at home.
• Children were expected one day to fulfil an appropriate role in society that would ensure the survival of the group, so their feeding and care was considered an investment in the future. Furthermore, they helped in the division of labor by doing menial tasks that freed up the men and women of the tribe for other important things. Kind of like when Susie and Billy cut up veggies in the kitchen while Dad is grilling steak and Mom is working out the bills.
• The elderly were revered (though not especially long-lived) because they had knowledge that could be passed on. So long as they held this knowledge and were in good health, they were just as much a priority as anyone else contributing.

Now, the problem comes in when we see people who are physiologically or psychologically atypical. A gatherer with no sense of taste won't be good for the tribe because typical plant toxins taste bitter. A hunter with no sight would pose more than a few problems bringing down big game, and his lame brother couldn't join the hunt either. These people were not fit for the lifestyle they had to live to continue their survival.

This sounds incredibly harsh to our modern ears, because we have gone out of our way technologically and medically to create a world where these disabilities do not provide a hindrance to our fellow men and women. We've done this for many reasons, but we have been able to do this because we live in a society where our survival is no longer threatened by environmental concerns on a daily basis. This, and an economy of surplus, have allowed us to make sure that everyone can have a full, meaningful, productive life nowadays. And in any culture like the one in which we currently live, there is no reason to write off anyone for such a thing. However, the moment the survival of the group (or even, as in the case with early man, the species) rests upon the daily survival grind like in a post-apoc Hollywood blockbuster, these values of equality get called into question.

If physical disabilities were disruptive to primitive peoples at the dawn of civilization, imagine how horrific mental illnesses must've seemed? Chudnuk might suddenly choke on the last hunt of the winter because he had a traumatic experience the year before. Merak might have an episode where she destroys the storehouse and stomps all the berries, having no idea what or why she's doing it. Burk, otherwise the tribe's best hunter, might wander off into the snow one winter with no clothes or weapons, choosing to die in the cold rather than continue his existence. These people did not--could not--have the understanding of psychology that we do now, and these kinds of behaviors must have seemed terrifying to them.

So, what I'm actually saying, for those keeping score, is that either the spirits or the shaman (in some cases, both), used the system to their advantage. They carved out this spiritual niche for the mentally ill and physically disabled, so that they would have something to contribute to society despite not being able to help in other ways. It was explained away as the spirits' choosing (no matter what the reality may have been), and these priests and priestesses survived off the generosity (a disguised payment for debt) of others because the spirits demanded sacrifices of wine and food.

It worked out for everyone. But that doesn't mean it works exactly the same now.

It should also be pointed out that there are many, and I mean many, shamanic practices dealing with the ingestion of hallucinatory drugs. Ayahuasca, Huachuma, Peyote, Psyilocibin mushrooms,Iboga, etc,etc.

These were in fact integral to these rituals, and rites of passage.

Now, keep in mind what kind of states these produce, and some may have first hand knowledge.

You would be right fit for what is considered a mental hospital in those states, but that state, is not constant.

So a Shaman, and the like would perhaps see these people as spiritual, but no shaman, or shamanic practice would advocate for one being stuck that way.

On another note though, there has been studies with positive results on how Ayahuasca and the like have helped cure mental illness, PTSD, and the like.

So then, how does that research which can in fact help the mentally ill, rather than enable them with the same type of practices fit into this?

steamboat28 wrote: It worked out for everyone. But that doesn't mean it works exactly the same now.

Yea I agree with your explanation, its how I imagined it also, but a solid and entirely complete logical explanation does not exclude that something unknown might not be going on instead. I think its much safer to err on the side of caution and go with that logical explanation as a baseline, but I also think its important to explore these other (I was going to say non-traditional :pinch: ) types of unusual avenues.... its how most great science is found, by accident. Even if its entertaining drug induced delusion to rewire the persons brain to work more 'normally', and other practices which are outside our scientific capacity to measure - there is always statistics to fall back on (trial and error!) I guess
:dry:

I have long thought that certain mental disorders could be the result of some psychic phenomena. It should not be taken lightly that the doctor took the one patient back to Africa and he got better. I would like to see more research into something like this.

It is obvious that we need to find a better way to deal with our mentally ill people. There has to be a better way. This shaman may have the key. Like I said though, more research is needed.

Goken wrote: It is obvious that we need to find a better way to deal with our mentally ill people. There has to be a better way. This shaman may have the key. Like I said though, more research is needed.

That "better way" you're looking for is the destigmatization of mental illness. As long as mentally ill people are more comfortable and safe saying they're possessed than actually seeking help, we won't solve anything.

steamboat28 wrote:

Goken wrote: It is obvious that we need to find a better way to deal with our mentally ill people. There has to be a better way. This shaman may have the key. Like I said though, more research is needed.

That "better way" you're looking for is the destigmatization of mental illness. As long as mentally ill people are more comfortable and safe saying they're possessed than actually seeking help, we won't solve anything.

But if treating them as if they're possessed helps them as it did the one patient in the carticle then it is solving the problem. That's why I suggested more research in this area. You may disagree with the idea of it being a spiritual problem, but whatever they did to him worked. We should find out why and explore that more.

Goken wrote: But if treating them as if they're possessed helps them as it did the one patient in the carticle then it is solving the problem. That's why I suggested more research in this area. You may disagree with the idea of it being a spiritual problem, but whatever they did to him worked. We should find out why and explore that more.

We don't have enough information about that person to decide if treating them that way "helped." We have no hard data to say what kind of help it was, we have no proof that they weren't given some narcotic or psychadelic preparation, we have no idea exactly what the effects of this were. None. So to say that just because it helped one person it's something we should invest in is like me telling you "Well, one time I hit my funny bone and then i drank lemon juice and it stopped hurting, so acidic beverages are how to fix nerve damage."

Not to mention that our understanding of mental illnesses and the mind body link is still underdeveloped AND horribly biased. Its rapidly becoming clear (or rather, accepted) that problems with your digestion and diet or nutritional deficiencies can create the same symptoms as certain mental illnesses. Mental illness is also recklessly assigned to normal emotional reactions that are now treated as abnormal and medicated in a way that can actually cause the very imbalance believed to be behind some available diagnosis, rather than treated as part of the human experience and learned from in order to develop emotional maturity.

I don’t believe it’s possible to make a sweeping statement like “mentally ill people are just healers waiting to be born”. Maybe some are, perhaps that is part of their path. Maybe some are just mentally unstable.

But I would have to agree with Arkayik. Our current paradigm in not working.

steamboat28 wrote: I never said they broke the rule. I said they found a loophole.

Sorry, I could have phrased that better, apologies for putting "words in your mouth." Thank you for taking the high road...

• Men hunt because they are typically stronger, faster, and have greater stamina....
• Women typically... Gathering is less stressful,

I get your drift, but I don't find accord with the stereotypes as stated. However, it's not germane, lets leave that to avoid a derail...

steamboat28 wrote: So, what I'm actually saying, for those keeping score,
It worked out for everyone. But that doesn't mean it works exactly the same now.

Less score, more talk...

I think you're on-track with the importance of de-stigmatisation. I wonder sometimes if mental un-health isn't so ubiquitous that we can't see the forest for all the trees...

I think there's lots of wisdom out there which might have applicability to helping with our mental health. From shamanic traditions to the journey-herbs. However, we have to be aware, while we as humans are still the same physiologically, our steel jungles are different from the rainforest. Such, practices would need to reflect that reality...

Part of the solution would be a move away from the puritanical and neurotic control governments want to have over substances which people ingest. At some point my kids have to grow up and make their own decisions, good and bad... No one in a nanny-state ever gets to "grow up"....

Anyhow, back to the OP... How you would go about safely and responsibly integrating these wisdom traditions into current practice is beyond me...

Sorry about the mess - had too much to say.

surviving of the fittest

There's a theory that the level of stress in the society is constant whether it is going through "war" or "peace". When at "war", stress is simple and heavy, when at "peace" - it is light and complexed. So, there's a trade-of between heaviness and complexity. Either you have a hard life or - a depressed one, either inner stress - or outer. Moving up Maslow's Pyramid is moving from heavy to complex.

background

I have overcome 10 years of endogenous depression. I agree that sometimes it is spiritual and sometimes not. But that's too obscure.

Every shrink would speak of relapses and how you can't be guaranteed to be 100% healthy. But I made it my purpose from the beginning of that Odyssey. And I know for sure what was depression in my case, what I did to assimilate it and why it will not return - as sure as that I'll wake up tomorrow.

layered structure of human defenses

For now I know these ways of treating dp, them I also call layers of defense:
1) physical - exercises/labor/sport/cold_water
2) chemical - meds (various types of antidepressants, neuroleptics etc.)
3) psychological - talking (psychodrama, psychoanalysis, hypnosis, habit-oriented, insight-oriented etc.)
4) spiritual - rituals (meditation, confession, going to church/temple, reading sacred sources)

And there are combinations - some have own names (like yoga=spiritual+physical), others are developed privately by therapists and patients.

rational and irrational in dp

This separation in layers is just slicing of a problem, not the whole. Dp is a living system. It may play different roles in each layer. And roles may shift in time. It is like a separate virus rather than a "demon" or a "disease".

Like in maths, there are a rational and irrational parts of dp. Rational is easily systematized. Irrational always eludes any system.

After all the years I came not to a system but to a feeling of emotional viruses in me. And after I trusted this feeling, it led me to vision and understanding. I'd like to share it.

my vision

Depression is not a thing - that's why it is hard to get it. It is the abscence of thing. It is not something in you, but rather the space in your inner world that you didn't fill with soul. It is a gap. A hole. It is the integral sum of all that you fear, all your losses, all your defeats - all that makes your soul shrink - in one piece. This piece is hijacking your instincts and emotions and mind - and becomes very much living. A virus made of "anti-soul matter".

A great metaphor for depression is The Shadow from Ursula Le Guin's fantasy "Wizard of Earthsea". It's no stupid fantasy, it has all the power of Taoism behind it - she even wrote her own commented version of Tao Te Chin. [SPOILER!] Fictional Shadow was born out of flaws and faults of a young man. It hided and grew stronger until it became a separate creature, feeding on the young man and those he came close to. The only way to overcome it was to, first, stop running and face it and, second, find it's true name. Finding it's name was understanding who you are. Naming all of your faults and flaws separately and then compiling a single name for them. Your true name.

My vision is that when you have depression, your spiritual body - through all the above mentioned layers - is infected. If dp is strong, then it's corrupted almost to the core of your soul. And from the core you have to rebuild yourself. Sometimes it is better to "die" - let your outer and inner life be destroyed almost totally (however horrible it may sound) - and then be "reborn" - build it all from the core, which can not be destroyed.

* You'll have to grow new spine - face deepest fears and overcome the most serious traumas.
* You'll have to grow new muscles - work and train willpower, fall and rise, 1000 times.
* You'll have to grow new nervous system - learn to feel again, to have sympathy to people, to like, to love.
* You'll have to grow new skin - face external world in all it's steel again and get used to outer stress.

This is pretty much all the spiritual stuff about depression. Everything else is auxiliary: meds and psychotherapy and sport - all are crunches or exercises to get through life and carve out some space for your spirit to grow anew. There are enough real life obstacles to make this journey long.

IMO, every endogenous depression is existential . Existence is spiritual at it's core, at human soul's core.

Moving up the Maslow's Pyramid we are facing not animals or each other as enemies. We are facing ourselves.

fin

I would like to help depressed people. I considered becoming a shrink, but every depression might be as deep as it's host. Knowing dp's general nature is not enough. To help someone you should really 100% know him and coach him. That's a lot of work and not everyone is persistent enough to go to the very end of this thing, it's easy to get comfortable somewhere on half-way. With half life. I have no education other than my experience, reasoning and some material that helped me on that road. Based on this, I decided that I will not change profession. But then - I don't know how and where can I help people with dp.

A Jedi Quest, heh. )

May the Force be with You, Always.