Asking God some questions

Learn_To_Know wrote:

Brenna wrote:

Learn_To_Know wrote: If he does as much as they claim he does, why are the big problems avoided so neatly by him?

Because hes busy running the entire universe? of which we are a very very small part? Maybe they arent big problems when youre looking at things on a grander scale...

I don't know. My problems, truly, are inconsequential.

Famine for millions, poverty for more millions...if those are small to god, I don't know why people continue to call him god.

Maybe he/she needs a new name, like creator. God, for the most part to me, denotes benevolence. But I don't see that benevolence for those that can't help themselves. I see indifference from god.

But alas...

When I was little I used to wonder if the buffalo and zebra prayed to God for rain during the summer. If lions prayed for more buck when the droughts had killed off so many. If the rhino prayed to be saved from poachers. (yes, i was an odd child) God has not prevented the suffering of any other species on earth, why are we so arrogant to assume that he would prevent suffering on our behalf. Maybe suffering is just a part of how it all works. Is the indifference a sign that there is no "God" in its traditional incarnation, or maybe a sign that we are meant to sort it out ourselves?

What makes us so interesting as a species, is that we are able to prevent suffering... yet we don't.

Kohadre wrote:

Rorschach: You see, Doctor, God didn't kill that little girl. Fate didn't butcher her and destiny didn't feed her to those dogs. If God saw what any of us did that night he didn't seem to mind. From then on I knew... God doesn't make the world this way. We do.

Someone here posted this quote on the wall a short bit ago, but I thought it was appropriate for this topic.

Hence, Christmas in July truly exists Hahaha, glad you found my favourite and most thought-provoking quote from Watchmen to be a nice piece to add.

Another one (which questions and critiques the actions of all people and, in that sense, the actions of a collective gathering of "God")

Nite Owl: "What the hell happened to us? What happened to the American Dream?"

Comedian: "The American Dream? It came true! You're looking right at it..."

Not even the Watchmen who supposedly safeguard society and those who look out for others are free from some sort of power, yet I believe this force is that of everyone's personal choice brought together or into conflict by their personal notion of God. If viewed in this sense, I suppose God could be very much a personal expression of one's heart and mind while also a collective force if many personal expressions agree in one "God-like" sense as well. Does that make any kind of sense? Think of the Beatles song "Within you (your understanding of God) , Without you (the outside and collective notion). Cheers, and thanks for remembering my wall post, Kohadre May the Force (perhaps a Jedi's way of viewing the idea of God if you believe as such, or if you believe otherwise) be forever with you all

Brenna wrote:

Learn_To_Know wrote:

Brenna wrote:

Learn_To_Know wrote: If he does as much as they claim he does, why are the big problems avoided so neatly by him?

Because hes busy running the entire universe? of which we are a very very small part? Maybe they arent big problems when youre looking at things on a grander scale...

I don't know. My problems, truly, are inconsequential.

Famine for millions, poverty for more millions...if those are small to god, I don't know why people continue to call him god.

Maybe he/she needs a new name, like creator. God, for the most part to me, denotes benevolence. But I don't see that benevolence for those that can't help themselves. I see indifference from god.

But alas...

When I was little I used to wonder if the buffalo and zebra prayed to God for rain during the summer. If lions prayed for more buck when the droughts had killed off so many. If the rhino prayed to be saved from poachers. (yes, i was an odd child) God has not prevented the suffering of any other species on earth, why are we so arrogant to assume that he would prevent suffering on our behalf. Maybe suffering is just a part of how it all works. Is the indifference a sign that there is no "God" in its traditional incarnation, or maybe a sign that we are meant to sort it out ourselves?

What makes us so interesting as a species, is that we are able to prevent suffering... yet we don't.

Animals don't suffer...

We project that quality on them...

An animal lives in the now, it eats when hungry, sleeps when tired, etc, etc....

Suffering is the want of something...

Want of more money, free time, food...

You don't have it, and you want it....

Therefore, suffering exists...

In an individual's mind..

The only way you are going to prevent suffering, is to not want, instead simply BE.....

We are unique, because suffering doesn't exist, until we assign it to something...

Sorry if I derailed, just wanted to comment...

Jestor wrote:
Animals don't suffer...

We project that quality on them...

An animal lives in the now, it eats when hungry, sleeps when tired, etc, etc....

Suffering is the want of something...

Want of more money, free time, food...

You don't have it, and you want it....

Therefore, suffering exists...

In an individual's mind..

The only way you are going to prevent suffering, is to not want, instead simply BE.....

We are unique, because suffering doesn't exist, until we assign it to something...

Sorry if I derailed, just wanted to comment...

I would have to agree with most of what you've said. Animals do live in the now. They do not create mental anguish over things, but to say they dont suffer I cant agree with. Ive been inside one too many animal shelters to believe that suffering for them does not exist.

Although, i suppose in a way wanting to not be abused but not having it falls into the scope of what you've said, and if they dont think beyond the immediate suffering they cant "want" out of it. Does that then mean that suffering but not wanting to suffer causes more suffering? .... I feel like Ive just asked a really obvious dumb question somehow.

Brenna wrote: Although, i suppose in a way wanting to not be abused but not having it falls into the scope of what you've said, and if they dont think beyond the immediate suffering they cant "want" out of it. Does that then mean that suffering but not wanting to suffer causes more suffering? .... I feel like Ive just asked a really obvious dumb question somehow.

Actually, Brenna, your question is very fitting. Whereas Jestor is correct about suffering coming from the mind and the things we want, animaux do suffer. They do not recall a 'simpler time' to cling to, nor are they ambitious about what sort of 'private pasture' they might like. They do however feel fear and pain and they want that to stop. Wanting to live is instinctive, hence the fear of dying painfully (something only the living can do) is suffering. And that is done/felt in the moment présent ...

Ever watch a predator eat the prey?

They are not always dead, yet sometimes cease to struggle...

The present moment is sometimes unacceptable, unpleasant, or awful.

It is as it is. Observe how the mind labels it and how this labeling process, this continuous sitting in judgment, creates pain and unhappiness. By watching the mechanics of the mind, you step out of its resistance patterns, and you can then allow the present moment to be. This will give you a taste of the state of inner freedom from external conditions, the state of true inner peace. Then see what happens, and take action if necessary or possible. Accept - then act. Whatever the present moment contains, accept it as if you had chosen it. Always work with it, not against it. Make it your friend and ally, not your enemy. This will miraculously transform your whole life.

E. Tolle, The Power of Now

Damn, I am starting to feel like Maynoth, lol...

Just quoting a source...

But Tolle puts it do eloquently, I don't think I can say it better...

Im going to disagree with you Alexandre...

Animals don't want to live...

They either survive a life threatening situation, or they don't...

They don't worry about their kids, spouses or whatever....

They are in a situation, either they live, or die...

Does this make sense?

They don't sit back, if they survive, and check their bucket list...

They go about continuing to BE

Remove the barrier between pleaure and pain.

Proteus wrote:

Reliah wrote: It isn't gods job. That's really all there is to it. "It" gave us all we needed - each other.

From the day we were born we've relied on other human beings for absolutely everything. Without each other, we would not have survived to be having this conversation. We didn't know how to pray - to ask for help - to blame someone when we were hurt or got hungry. We just relied on others. Completely. As infants - we cried - as children we used the language we hardly understood to point, grunt, or somehow ask other people for what we wanted or needed. It seems the "smarter" we get - the more we "understand" the more we move away from knowing that simple fact - we need each other. We depend on each other. We have since the day we were born and we will until the day we die. There hasn't ever and will never be a time when we aren't somehow dependent upon another person - by choice or not.

We've forgotten it. We haven't stopped needing each other, we've just forgotten it. We don't want to believe it for whatever reason. Therein lies one of the biggest problems.

Our nature of relying on others the way we always have, plays a role in many people looking to that god in the same way. One of the aspects of Christian belief is that people are "gods children", essentially teaching followers that they cannot provide for themselves and that they need "the father" or else they will die (spiritually), and end up in "hell". It creates quite an insecurity in humanity's self-esteem.

I guess I just don't understand why someone would do that haha
I have a hang up in regards to this topic, apparently.
It seems we're agreeing in round-about ways.
I'm trying to understand the thought process, truly...
It doesn't make sense to me.
Interesting..

LOL ... you can disagree with me, Maître Jestor. I don't have to be right.



And please continue quoting Tolle -- it is a good source and it is good for us.

Part of it is that I've never been eaten perhaps ...

"Want(ing)" is maybe the wrong verb there. I don't know. There is the instinct for survival ; animals rarely run 'toward' their predators. They run, when they are caught they struggle and then, yes, there comes a moment when they stop struggling and let death come. True, they are not thinking of loved ones they're leaving behind. That would be really weird if they had 'bucket lists' ... (it's really weird that we do too).

Yet, I wasn't really thinking about animals in the wild either. I was remembering documentaries I've made the mistake of watching where they show how animals are treated and how they often die. As I said above, maybe we would better consider how these animals feel apart from any sort of "wanting" - that may be somewhat anthropomorphising. Even so, accepting that a moment present is 'just so' may liberate us from the discomfort of how we feel it 'should' or 'shouldn't' be, but it is not going to ease physical suffering.

True, the animal survives the life threatening situation or doesn't. That is true for us too. But in our case, we try and give that all "meaning" -- there is where the difference lies.

Why would it be God’s place to interfere with the works of the universe?

Over years of observation I have decided that people are beings of comfort. And if something happens to threaten that level of comfort they retaliate sometimes in an extreme nature. Watching people has given me a glimpse into the inner workings from my point of view only. But what it seems is that when people are scared, they seek comfort; when they are happy they seek to maintain that comfort. Not understanding and not being in touch with the universe as it truly is causes doubt and uncertainty that beings attempt to fill with an explanation that will have a calming effect on them. Many turn to religion. And for each person their interpretation of that religion will vary and change over time to suit their current needs.

And we can see this if we look through the evolution of some of today’s more prominent religions and how they have changed since the beginnings of their recorded histories. And through this evolution we see how the interpretations have influenced their respective societies. Which brings us to where we currently are…

As man has decided he should be the master of his environment, it seems only right that the one that created him should be master over him. And he looks to that being for resolve, intervention and assurance. When there is no more that will happen if the insects living on a tree prayed to that tree to protect them from the oncoming storm or bird attack.

We all exist in a delicate balance that is infinitely complex in its simplicity. What each of us chooses to believe or question will affect how we interpret any given chain of events. How we are effected by that interpretation will either reinforce or bring into question are beliefs. What I have failed to grasp is how any one person can judge another for believing something to be true.

On a different part of the discussion…
Animals are capable of suffering. They do live in the now. And it is possible for any living thing to experience an amazing array of emotion right now. I have watched as dogs mourned the loss of companions, and continue to show the hurt of that part of their lives being gone for weeks after the event. I have seen the trauma brought by ill circumstances haunt animals and torment them for years after they were in a “safe” place. I have seen plants, even when in all the right grow conditions, simply give up after an event. Life knows no limits that we put on it. Our understanding and what we can “prove” does not limit the universe in how it deals with life and all its creations.

I have no problem with how others perceive reality through their eyes or how they choose to understand it through the wisdom of others. I think that studying is a good starting point for answering the really interesting questions! But it is just that… a starting point.