Asking God some questions

rugadd wrote: I think I am divine. I can not point a finger at anyone but me if I'm upset at the way things are going.

Are you upset?

Why or why not?

I'm not upset, I just think the omnipotent god most religious people believe in is lousy.

When I *think* and *read* about the suffering of others, I do feel sadness and pity for them.

It's usually a fleeting emotion and then I watch the sun rise...like I did this morning, and everything seems *right* again...if only for a little while.

Learn_To_Know wrote:

Proteus wrote: Isn't the traditional concept that God is everywhere and within everything?

If that's the case, then wouldn't (couldn't) you taking initiative be God working through you, thus answering both questions at once?

That's a great point and mirrors what I believe the concept of *God* is. I try to alleviate suffering, limit my causing it, helping others through it, etc.

But I do that, because I believe people are all we have to do it. I don't believe some other-worldly, omnipotent being is really out there that will solve these problems for us.

But let's face it, people are doing a poor job at eliminating these problems, and if God is truly working through us, he's failing just as miserably as we are (speaking collectively, not discounting the great work individuals and organizations are doing with the limited means they have).

It's like if I have a landfill to clean up and I need earth-movers, but I choose a small remote control car with a 2 inch shovel on the end of it. Why the hell am I using something so inferior to the problem at hand? Likewise with the famine and poverty and injustice, c'mon God, pick something a little better to do the job!

This goes back to the question, does God want to end the problems or not?

Doing a lousy job or not, it's our job. It's not its fault we're not doing it.

It's more like its using full sized equipment to do the work but they're only using two inches of the blade because they have no idea who/what they are and how much they're actually capable of doing. (Either that, or they're unsure, afraid, or lazy)

Either way, we underestimate ourselves when our real potential is much more than we could possibly imagine.

Which category do I fall under? Probably a little of all three. Mostly unsure.

Reliah wrote: Even if there is a personal god, he shouldn't interfere.
Just like children (since we are talking about a personal god we can say we are his children, no?) - if we were there every second cleaning up their messes and making sure they don't get hurt they will never learn or feel anything. We don't want bad things to happen to them, but as this is life we teach them how to handle it, hold our breath, sometimes panic a bit, and hope for the best. Could we protect them from most of it? Of course we could. Should we? No. I know people who try and have seen what happens to those children as adults.

I agree for the most part. You would jump in if your 2 year child grabbed a kitchen knife and tried to run with it, right? Or if they wandered too close to a pool?

There are things we want our children to learn by experiencing, and then there are other things we want them to learn by deductive reasoning.

Reliah wrote: The real question isn't if god should interfere or not - the real question is what the purpose of it all is. I think both Joseph Campbell and Alan Watts answered that question.. Which leads to the point Brenna was making: what can *I* do?

Good point.

Learn_To_Know wrote:

Brenna - well, its kind of tricky because I don't have a god. But other people might... is their god obligated to fix their mistakes? Or should they have to take responsibility for them and sort them out themselves?

I have to rearrange what I was thinking because I was expecting to answer you based on your belief in god (at least, judging by the image you posted). But since you don't have a god, this answer may not relate to you anymore. I guess it will be a theoretical discussion now.
Is god obligated to fix our mistakes? In the image, the issues in question are poverty, famine and injustice. Does god *want* to end poverty, famine and injustice? If god does, why do we still have these problems? If god doesn't, why are we asking god anything in the first place?

(Not sure where to take our discussion now, haha. so I'll comment on the other posts in the thread...)

I think thats what is so interesting about the image. I think that for those who believe there is a god it is a reminder that one cannot simply transfer personal responsibility to an "omnipotent" god. and for those who do not believe in a god, to be reminded that our own actions are the only ones that count.

Reliah wrote: After some thinking, I've decided that regardless of what kind of god there might be, there should be no interference. There isn't a reason we can't fix our own problems ourselves.. Or rather, there isn't a reason we can't help and love each other without the interference of a "higher power". We don't need it, we just think it owes us something if it exists for some reason. It doesn't.

I'm mostly speaking to the billions that believe in a god that does interfere. If he does as much as they claim he does, why are the big problems avoided so neatly by him?

But yes, we don't need god to do our own good deeds.

I suppose I didn't realize that there are people who think it should interfere. This changes the conversation, to me, quite a bit.
I cannot relate to that concept.
I'll need to come back to it after some thinking..

Learn_To_Know wrote: If he does as much as they claim he does, why are the big problems avoided so neatly by him?

Because hes busy running the entire universe? of which we are a very very small part? Maybe they arent big problems when youre looking at things on a grander scale...

Alexandre Orion wrote: When we ask God questions privately -- we're just talking to ourselves. It can be a good contemplation time.

When we ask God questions when talking to someone else -- we're still just talking to ourselves yet, it can be a nice conversation and possibly a better argument ...

When we ask God questions when talking to two other people -- we're again just talking to ourselves, but the universe starts to morph .....

Tao Te Ching 42 :

The Tao gives birth to One.
One gives birth to Two.
Two gives birth to Three.
Three gives birth to all things. All things have their backs to the female
and stand facing the male.
When male and female combine,
all things achieve harmony. Ordinary men hate solitude.
But the Master makes use of it,
embracing his aloneness, realizing
he is one with the whole universe.

As Ray Manzarek purportedly said to Jim Morrison when he heard the lyrics to "Moonlight Drive" "that's f****** awesome!"

In a really suspenseful and thrilling book that is a really wild ride to read.... why does the author put the characters through turmoil? Why doesn't he/she just write to avoid any of the death, suffering, confusion, and so on? What would the book be without making the characters struggle the way they do?

That certainly makes for good reading, true.

But are you saying god is using this world as his book and writing in all the suffering, war, poverty, etc. for his own entertainment?

Is it necessary to struggle with poverty in order to grow and refine? What about with famine? Because if it's necessary for us to experience those things in order for us to grow, then billions of us will never experience such growth.

My belief is that we can still grow and refine ourselves *without* poverty and famine. Those are the things I would eliminate if I were god; and the fact that *god* (if he/she/it exists) doesn't eradicate those problems tells me a lot more about god then the problems themselves...

(I feel the need to share, that these are just questions only No hostile intent whatsoever behind any of my posts. Sometimes the medium can distort the message. I think it would be awesome to talk in person with you about this stuff. )