The mentality of "fighting" for peace

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19 Jun 2013 15:36 - 19 Jun 2013 15:39 #109910 by
@ rickie:

Right? I think the US department of defense needs to revert to its civil war era designation: the war department. Wehavenet been defending much of anything in this country for a long, long time.
Last edit: 19 Jun 2013 15:39 by .

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19 Jun 2013 15:47 - 19 Jun 2013 16:13 #109913 by Wescli Wardest

Kohadre wrote: Good point, as morality is subjective and not universal, who is to decide what is moral, and what by what right or privilege are they to do so.


That is a good question. And when I see/hear it I always suggest that people start looking for the answer with an open, unbiased mind. And the first place to begin the search is…

Honor: A History ” James Bowman (Author)

Attachment Honor-a-history-of.jpg not found



PS: My copy has notes and scribbles all throughout it. Like most books, there are a few opnions vioced in it, but overall it is a look at honor and what helps to define honor, morality.

Monastic Order of Knights
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20 Jun 2013 00:55 - 20 Jun 2013 00:58 #109937 by Adder

morality is subjective and not universal, who is to decide what is moral, and what by what right or privilege are they to do so.


I feel this is used as an excuse way too much. For me good and bad are not baseless subjective assessments - we aren't philosophical idea's posting on forums, we are biological systems which seem to share a concept of pleasure and pain (in various different system modalitites).

I think that there is the primary baseline in the human (living?) experience which exists as probably the root duality. If anyone has ever experienced outright bliss then you'll know everything is good, even if its bad, because everything is pleasure.... even pain. Pain exists because it's a foundation of our body to determine healthy behavior in an external environment. Healthy means to promote longer life (not pleasure).

These then can be externalized to represent the system and expressed in terms/amounts of 1. creating pain in another, and 2. limiting ones freedom's to exist as an individual biological system.

Note that does not mean pain is always bad, because sometimes it is required to increase health which seems to indicate point 2 takes priority over point 1.

Perspective is important, but so is awareness and promotion of those basic elements which to me constitute what the United Nation's tries to define as human rights.

Then the next level up from the individual perspective is personal relationships, local relationships and non-local relationships. It is in these relationships that morals, ethics and law's tend to emerge as necessary because people operate as individuals and a system to allow some concept of balance between individual basic imperatives needs to be in place to stop conflict. The complexity becomes staggering as the number of participants increases, and so we get a trillion shades of white as just many reasons for them to be called a trillion shades of black!!!

For me that's a foundation for assessing concepts like morality to link back and promote those individual parameters of subjective good and bad. The difficulty arises in the complexity of the factors at play in a decision.

I do not think those factors are open to individual interpretation as much as people like to think - as people are not able to engage in the complexity very much. They are only acting on the limited set of decisions before them. This to me says there is room in all peoples decisions to act morally, to know good from bad. If you cannot tell the difference then find out more information. Often times the best course of action is not judgmental but diplomatic, because de-escalting a cycles of judgment allows room for knowledge to be better gathered, contextualized and integrated into decision making.

I'd say there is no good reason to be bad 'at the same level'. People often use different levels of complexity to find reason's to negatively assess a more personal level, and thus create a sense of justification. To top it all off, this assumes both mental rationality and no duty of authority, such as determining concepts like justice - that is another layer of complexity on top of complexity!!!

For me this is where focus, knowledge and wisdom come into play. Focusing on comparable levels of complexity in causality, having knowledge to understand your own reality in more accurate terms with a functioning and engaged empathy, and the wisdom to determine the most accurate 'best' action. To me this is a big part of being a Jedi. Not perhaps about being right or the best, but trying to promote it within oneself and others.

Fighting for peace is about stopping (in the least harmful way possible) people who are trying to force that above mentioned concept of 'dark'.

Firstly 'fighting' is the application of an authority granted by some community so we are talking about systems of judgement which should be structured to be moral ( Laws of War etc). When it gets to that point of directly impacting the root duality of pleasure/pain and freedom/disease in terms of fighting someone, such as assassination then it really is a finite point which whilst ideally very removed (LOTS of other options attempted before this point) then it starts to reach a point where they are either being executed for something they did (condition A ) or assassinated for something they might do (condition B ). I think condition A is unnecessary, an ineffective punishment and ignores the potential for new information to change the assessment; and condition B to be, at best, a quantitative decision on the likeleehood of an individual to undertake a particular course of action.

In reality this assessment is almost impossible!? In reality I'd guess condition B is inappropriate and a failure to let the situation get to the point (where the target was in a position to take that course of action.....), so at that point it might become the duty of that person to assume the failure of the system promotes the decision making to themselves, and therefore they would have to take the shot given the authority granted by the people under threat by that person and the fact they are there pointing some weapon at what must therefore be a likely threat - but that is right at the tip of the spear in a worst case scenario and most all others would revert back to de-escalation of violence, finding out information.. basically calming and controlling the situation by removing a capacity for harm. I've written too much to make sense anymore - anyone who got this far needs a few of them cookie's!!!

Introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist.
Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 20 Jun 2013 00:58 by Adder.

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20 Jun 2013 04:07 #109950 by

Raikoutenshi wrote: Death is only okay when it is by natural means.


Sorry, but this just struck me as funny (as in interesting). Aren't violence and murder natural? Animals kill to eat, to claim territory, and for the sport of it. People kill for sport, resources, territory, etc. It seems to be in our nature and the nature of our world.

However, I agree there are other ways to deal with situations besides death. It seems the older I get the more open minded I become about these situations. While killing a threat might be the quick and easy solution, it might not be the best.

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20 Jun 2013 06:18 - 20 Jun 2013 06:19 #109956 by
An intersting question Kohadre,
While it's easy to say that it's a moral dilemma I really have to agree with Adder that it is a biological issue too not just a moral one. We are a complex collection of systems of which our consciousness is only one part, our animal instincts are as much a factor as our belief systems and need to be considered.
Personally I see the duality of moral dilemma's like this as a choice presented to each of us as individuals. The "black and white" of "good and evil" just don't exist in nature, the world and all it's possibilities are formless or "grey" the black and white is our minds creating context and comparison for us to gather information with and this scale is affected by biases of our physical, psychological and spiritual needs at the time. For example its easy for me to say "I will not kill anyone ever" while sittting in front of my computer but if I was in the middle of a warzone with all the chaos it entails, and people were shooting at or posing some other immediate danger to me I would quickly be reassessing the idea of not killing.
Life ending life occurs all through nature like Wendaline stated. Animals kill for food, territory, sport and even out of boredom. Plants kill each other off as well for once again food and territory usually using food as their weapon to gain territory for themselves and their offspring. We are a part of nature and trying to remove ourselves from it is counter-productive, letting just our biological impulses or just our personal philosophies dictate our choices we aren't using all our available information and options. We aren’t really being true to ourselves by allowing only one element of ourselves make the decision.
It's true conflict helps us grow by challenging our ideas about ourselves, others and the world but like Adder already said it's our responsibility to seek the best available solution and ending a life or lives is too final a solution to be "The Best" one, however sometimes you have to work with what’s available.
For myself I believe peace is more an individual concept and thought pattern like the idea of freedom, but in the broader social sense you’re talking about peace to me is worthy of protection and I would fight for it and possibly kill for it but I draw my line at pre-emptively violent or aggressive actions as they limit my options in seeking that elusive "best" solution.
Such an interesting discussion so far, glad you started it Kohadre I can’t wait to see how this progresses.
P.S sorry if I misunderstood or misinterpreted some of the points you made Adder but hey I read the whole piece and tried my best, sooooo about those cookies?

P.P.S first forum post for me Woot! jumping in the deep end
Last edit: 20 Jun 2013 06:19 by . Reason: Technologically impaired

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20 Jun 2013 07:33 - 20 Jun 2013 07:36 #109963 by Whyte Horse

Kohadre wrote: I was just curious what people thought of the mentality of "fighting" for peace. By this I mean singling out the action of engaging in violent activities in order to maintain, or even obtain a state of peace within a community or within the world.

While I do not believe that wars are beneficial in any shape in leading to the outcome of peace, I feel that conflicts on an individual scale can at times, and in special circumstances, lead to unique applications of peace. By example, if the assassination of one individual will lead to the prevention of both war and loss of life, is it not a just action to end that person's life assuming all other avenues of diplomacy and negotiation have been exhausted?

What would any of you do for peace? Would you fight if it was absolutely necessary, and you had exhausted all other diplomatic options. Would you take one individuals life if it meant saving the lives of countless others?

When is violence necessary for peace to be maintained/obtained, or is it ever necessary/justified to begin with? Is a Jedi permitted, or even obligated by oath in certain circumstances to fight for the attainment or maintenance of the state of peace?

This mentality is misguided. It stems from a propaganda piece that dates back to the crusades. Here's some more propaganda:


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Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts.
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Last edit: 20 Jun 2013 07:36 by Whyte Horse.

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20 Jun 2013 15:06 #109984 by Kohadre

Whyte Horse wrote:

Kohadre wrote: I was just curious what people thought of the mentality of "fighting" for peace. By this I mean singling out the action of engaging in violent activities in order to maintain, or even obtain a state of peace within a community or within the world.

While I do not believe that wars are beneficial in any shape in leading to the outcome of peace, I feel that conflicts on an individual scale can at times, and in special circumstances, lead to unique applications of peace. By example, if the assassination of one individual will lead to the prevention of both war and loss of life, is it not a just action to end that person's life assuming all other avenues of diplomacy and negotiation have been exhausted?

What would any of you do for peace? Would you fight if it was absolutely necessary, and you had exhausted all other diplomatic options. Would you take one individuals life if it meant saving the lives of countless others?

When is violence necessary for peace to be maintained/obtained, or is it ever necessary/justified to begin with? Is a Jedi permitted, or even obligated by oath in certain circumstances to fight for the attainment or maintenance of the state of peace?


This mentality is misguided. It stems from a propaganda piece that dates back to the crusades. Here's some more propaganda:


I think you missed the essence of what I was asking. I do NOT feel that war is beneficial in any form in either resolving conflict OR attaining/maintaining peace. I was talking about conflicts on an individual, one on one basis that either have or can have global implications in their outcome.

So long and thanks for all the fish

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21 Jun 2013 03:00 #110044 by

Wendaline wrote:

Raikoutenshi wrote: Death is only okay when it is by natural means.


Sorry, but this just struck me as funny (as in interesting). Aren't violence and murder natural? Animals kill to eat, to claim territory, and for the sport of it. People kill for sport, resources, territory, etc. It seems to be in our nature and the nature of our world.

However, I agree there are other ways to deal with situations besides death. It seems the older I get the more open minded I become about these situations. While killing a threat might be the quick and easy solution, it might not be the best.


While killing is natural, human's seldom do it for the same reason animals do. I have yet to see an animal kill another animal without eating it, except in cases of self defense. Animals fight over territory also, that is true, and I've seen it between humans, but when the result of this interaction is the death of one individual involved the rest of society shuns the murderer. This is in human society and animal society.

I was mostly just using the phrase natural means like the police use natural cause of death though. :laugh:

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21 Jun 2013 07:12 #110074 by Whyte Horse

Kohadre wrote:

Whyte Horse wrote:

Kohadre wrote: I was just curious what people thought of the mentality of "fighting" for peace. By this I mean singling out the action of engaging in violent activities in order to maintain, or even obtain a state of peace within a community or within the world.

While I do not believe that wars are beneficial in any shape in leading to the outcome of peace, I feel that conflicts on an individual scale can at times, and in special circumstances, lead to unique applications of peace. By example, if the assassination of one individual will lead to the prevention of both war and loss of life, is it not a just action to end that person's life assuming all other avenues of diplomacy and negotiation have been exhausted?

What would any of you do for peace? Would you fight if it was absolutely necessary, and you had exhausted all other diplomatic options. Would you take one individuals life if it meant saving the lives of countless others?

When is violence necessary for peace to be maintained/obtained, or is it ever necessary/justified to begin with? Is a Jedi permitted, or even obligated by oath in certain circumstances to fight for the attainment or maintenance of the state of peace?


This mentality is misguided. It stems from a propaganda piece that dates back to the crusades. Here's some more propaganda:


I think you missed the essence of what I was asking. I do NOT feel that war is beneficial in any form in either resolving conflict OR attaining/maintaining peace. I was talking about conflicts on an individual, one on one basis that either have or can have global implications in their outcome.

well it's kind of strange that a conflict between two people can impact the globe. It's usually nationalism that is responsible for conflicts, and even then there is usually a bank behind the nationalism. That's why I think this whole line of thought is misguided.

If you want to break it down, think about human rights. You have a right to kill someone who's trying to kill you. You have a right to use force to prevent harm to yourself and others. something like that

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21 Jun 2013 15:45 #110115 by rugadd
Just because we can think about it, doesn't mean an instinct isn't urging the action.

rugadd

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