Knights of Awakening: Jedi Safe Spaces (Charles McBride)

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7 years 9 months ago #249196 by Rex

Leah Starspectre wrote: And no, race doesn't *automatically* define one's culture. But for many, it does. Why do you think so many immigrants tend to live together in the same neighbourhoods? Because it gives them comfort to be close to those of the same culture (and, depending on the culture, race) as they themselves are part of.

Acknowledging difference in race/culture only means racism if we choose to be divisive rather than inclusive.


Speaking broadly, there are genetic differences between races, but again Racism is just attributing negative aspects (that often are cultural) to anyone who phenotypically looks like a given target group. The two are a little related, so sometimes there is cognitive dissonance between them (think the black blind white supremacist david chapelle sketch).
To go back to the OP, the concept of a Safe Space hasn't been agreed upon, so a lot of the back and forth just is arguing from your definition against theirs.

Knights Secretary's Secretary
Apprentices: Vandrar
TM: Carlos Martinez
"A serious and good philosophical work could be written consisting entirely of jokes" - Wittgenstein

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7 years 9 months ago #249203 by
I find that it leads me to a place of darkness to read all of the replies to this and see that some of the opinions and viewpoints are so strong in belief from the individual posters that we actually have Jedi and aspiring Jedi that will not or can not seem to accept points from both sides of the arguement. My belief and understanding is that Jedi are supposed to be open-minded. Please try to keep this in mind as this is an interesting and great debate. As well as an excellent read.
Now, as for the video, I have my opinions on this, some things said by Charles I agreed with. Some I did not. I do not wish to offend or upset anyone but I do disagree with anyone condemning or agreeing without at least finishing listening. I for one do not believe in making ill-informed decisions or judgements. And I do not believe you can make an informed judgement without all of the information. But again, that is just my opinion and my way of looking at things. Everyone else is entitled to their own as well.

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7 years 9 months ago #249221 by Leah Starspectre

TheDude wrote:

ren wrote: In doing so, you are rejecting the notion that people are different from you.

I actually find science to be a bit racist when it comes to humans. Biologists do not seem to have a problem calling marginally different animals different species, but humans? No we're all the same. Except we're not, and ignoring that fact is harmful to our health. As "race" isn't formally defined and corresponds to categorisations below sub-species, it makes absolutely no sense to avoid it or redefine it for humans.


I also find the humanocentrism in science (and most philosophy, for that matter) unbecoming. But I wouldn't consider Advaita Vedanta folks over in India to be racists, and they reject the notion that anything is different from anything else, which would necessarily include people. Actually, I find the idea of substance monism to be not only in line with the Force, but also an extremely viable logical conclusion (through Spinoza’s ontological argument for the existence of substance). I don't see how rejecting the idea that there is anything to discriminate against is a discriminatory idea, I think it's the exact opposite.


Is a absolutely a viable logical conclusion, but the human mind and human culture is not logical. It's messy, contradictory and full of inconsistency. Philosophy and logic often exist within a kind of intellectual vacuum, which is fine to theorize about, but entirely impractical in reality.

You can rarely "logic away" emotion, which is what this "safe space" debate is based on. There are groups of people who do not feel safe in their social context, whether or not they individually are in immediate danger. The point is that they feel they are not safe. The point of "safe spaces" is to allow nonjudgemental discourse in which their concerns can be heard and hopefully resolved. So rather than argue if their concerns are justified, why not simply listen and try to help them?

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7 years 8 months ago - 7 years 8 months ago #249330 by OB1Shinobi
http://reason.com/blog/2016/06/02/this-claremont-safe-space-for-women-of-c

"This Claremont Safe Space for Women of Color Is Actually Pretty Hateful and Racist.
Students form identity-based group in order to bash people they don't like."

Warning: Spoiler!


that article links to this article

http://www.mediaite.com/online/mizzou-protesters-literally-segregate-themselves-based-on-race/

You can’t make this stuff up, folks; according to several tweets from people active in the University of Missouri racial equality protests, the protesters at one point segregated themselves by race.

At one point, protesters reported, “white allies” were “asked to leave.”


and this article

http://claremontindependent.com/3473-2/

"SAFE SPACE SHUT DOWN AFTER ANTI-WHITE, ANTI-MALE STATEMENTS LEAKED"

Warning: Spoiler!


i think its obviously a matter of context, yes there should be times and places where people agree to be good to each other

if i own a company or am in a position of authority in general, i want the environment to be "safe" from harassment, yes absolutely, but my aim would not be to impose some totalitarian regime of censorship over everyone, it would be to encourage genuine camaraderie, which doesnt happen as a result of censorship or coddling, but of openness to each others experiences and input

if you want to rent a hotel room and only invite your friends then by all means, go ahead, but if you start demanding that the rest f society become "safe space" where you are not subjected to any ideas or words that might offend you, thats when i have a problem

public space is not safe, the realm of ideas is not safe, it cant be, because the world isnt safe or gentle and we have to be be able to discuss things honestly

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/opinion/sunday/judith-shulevitz-hiding-from-scary-ideas.html?_r=0

"In College and Hiding From Scary Ideas"
Judith Shulevitz MARCH 21, 2015
Warning: Spoiler!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdlkU21LhXk

People are complicated.
Last edit: 7 years 8 months ago by OB1Shinobi.

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7 years 8 months ago - 7 years 8 months ago #249333 by
I know this is going to sound as though I'm just being a contrarian or picking a fight for the sake of it, but most of what you posted doesn't surprise me nor is it racist.

OB1Shinobi wrote: [Jamie's note: from the article in the first spoiler] Are non-inclusive safe spaces—ones designed for members of a specific minority—bastions of toleration? Not at the Claremont Colleges.


There is a rub between moderate liberals, left liberals, and leftists about what the goal should be: tolerance, diversity, cultural competence, etc. Each has a historical place within the development of socially progressive thought and each has a connotation in today's context. Tolerance is a farce.

Furthermore, there's a paradox in racial justice: white people stuck together often times tend towards racial prejudice. People of color in their own cultural or ethnic groups often times become more capable and confident in who they are and able to help others (even white people) develop understanding and empathy. Of course, having these people of color-specific circles can be difficult because people on the outside looking in don't understand the benefit. For more on this, I'd suggest Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria: And Other Conversations About Race by Dr. Beverly Daniel Tatum .

OB1Shinobi wrote: At one point, protesters reported, “white allies” were “asked to leave.”


This would make sense if you gave it a good long think, maybe. I'll help by way of metaphor: If I've had multiple traumatic car accidents, would it be unreasonable to ask that I not be forced to socialize with new friends in a parked car?

OB1Shinobi wrote: [Jamie's note: from the article in the second spoiler] In response to her adoptive white father making jokes at her expense, Sarah Weiyun Otterstrom (SC ‘17) posted “I just need to get this out. I hate having white parents so much.” Another student responded by instructing Otterstrom to tell her father that “his pale ass is worthless and the sun doesn’t even like him. Talk about his receding hairline, the fact that he probably looks 20 years older than he actually is, and that he probably has a small penis.”


I'm laughing my ass off. Where's the bad part? For more on this, I'd suggest: “The Uses of Anger: Women Responding to Racism” by Audre Lorde .

I know that people love a good story that reminds us how weak and pathetic liberals are, how fragile millenials are, and how social justice is nothing more than a ploy to oppress white cis straight men, but this stuff is really like two people talking to each other in the cleanest city in the world and one saying, "Can I have a stick of gum?" and the media reports, "GUM IN THE STREETS OF THE CLEANEST CITY IN THE WORLD!"

It's ill-informed fear mongering.
Last edit: 7 years 8 months ago by .

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7 years 8 months ago - 7 years 8 months ago #249339 by

Jamie Stick wrote: Furthermore, there's a paradox in racial justice: white people stuck together often times tend towards racial prejudice. People of color in their own cultural or ethnic groups often times become more capable and confident in who they are and able to help others (even white people) develop understanding and empathy. Of course, having these people of color-specific circles can be difficult because people on the outside looking in don't understand the benefit.


Omg. I can't believe that I actually feel that I have to respond to this. I am open to most ideas. I always am and for the most part I almost always have been. I lead a life in search of knowledge. But I am absolutely stunned that anyone who claims any open-mindedness at all, or claims to search for truth of any kind could ever make such a bold and opinionated statement worded as "fact". Everyone is allowed their own opinion. I truly believe that. But any remotely educated person, in my opinion, should know the difference between fact and opinion and that was stated as fact. And offering something to read to justify an opinionated statement as fact seems no different to me than someone coming on here stating something else just as opinionated from the other end of the spectrum and saying you should read Mein Kampf and that makes it fact.
Now I do not agree with either side of the spectrum. I believe we are all human and that is fact. Skin color means nothing to me. That does not however mean that I disregard anyone's cultural heritage. But I am not going to know a black person's cultural heritage any better than I will know a white person's cultural heritage or and Asian person's or a Latin person's and anyone else's and neither will anyone else unless there is some other distinguishing feature other than skin color. The only way I would know an Italian from any other white person is by getting to know them. That goes for Black, Latin, Asian, green, purple, and neon orange as well. All of our heritages are different and we will never know about them until we stop all of this and somehow(and I really wish I knew how) pull our heads out of our asses as a species and realize that while we have histories that are different....WE ARE ALL HUMAN.
I apologize, I should not have capitalized that but that is what came out so I won't change it now. I hope I haven't upset anyone with this but if I have I also apologize for that.
Last edit: 7 years 8 months ago by Adder.

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7 years 8 months ago #249341 by Leah Starspectre
Yes, we're all human, but unfortunately, there are still too many people who don't behave like this is so. And THAT's why these discussions are needed.

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7 years 8 months ago - 7 years 8 months ago #249344 by

Lancer wrote: But any remotely educated person, in my opinion, should know the difference between fact and opinion and that was stated as fact. And offering something to read to justify an opinionated statement as fact seems no different to me than someone coming on here stating something else just as opinionated from the other end of the spectrum and saying you should read Mein Kampf and that makes it fact.


1. I realize that the backlash on this idea would be strong so that's why I provided a solid resource that talks about this.
2. I didn't just pull this out my behind. This is a fairly well researched phenomena.

EDIT: Let's not fall into the Godwin's Law trap, shall we?

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7 years 8 months ago #249346 by TheDude

Jamie Stick wrote:

Lancer wrote: But any remotely educated person, in my opinion, should know the difference between fact and opinion and that was stated as fact. And offering something to read to justify an opinionated statement as fact seems no different to me than someone coming on here stating something else just as opinionated from the other end of the spectrum and saying you should read Mein Kampf and that makes it fact.


1. I realize that the backlash on this idea would be strong so that's why I provided a solid resource that talks about this.
2. I didn't just pull this out my behind. This is a fairly well researched phenomena.


To be fair, Audrey is hardly an unbiased source of information. I'm not sure about Tatum, quick Google search resulted in saying that she's a clinical psychologist, and psychology has a long history of extremely biased practitioners. I would know, I've studied it formally and extensively. Not to mention current trends in the APA which tend to favor public opinion over scientific research.

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7 years 8 months ago #249347 by Adder

Jamie Stick wrote: Furthermore, there's a paradox in racial justice: white people stuck together often times tend towards racial prejudice. People of color in their own cultural or ethnic groups often times become more capable and confident in who they are and able to help others (even white people) develop understanding and empathy. Of course, having these people of color-specific circles can be difficult because people on the outside looking in don't understand the benefit.


Yea the paradox is interesting. I reckon its local majority or power, not race. Sure in the US generally speaking those racial terms might be accurate, but the use of racial terms seems to extend the scope of the participants well beyond the nature of their participation and the results evident in that paradox. I say that because I tend to stick to the definition of race as being around physical characteristics so use of race language then to me directly implies some biological foundation - which in this case I think would be inaccurate and not even intended?

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