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Knights of Awakening: Jedi Safe Spaces (Charles McBride)
Leah Starspectre wrote: And no, race doesn't *automatically* define one's culture. But for many, it does. Why do you think so many immigrants tend to live together in the same neighbourhoods? Because it gives them comfort to be close to those of the same culture (and, depending on the culture, race) as they themselves are part of.
Acknowledging difference in race/culture only means racism if we choose to be divisive rather than inclusive.
Speaking broadly, there are genetic differences between races, but again Racism is just attributing negative aspects (that often are cultural) to anyone who phenotypically looks like a given target group. The two are a little related, so sometimes there is cognitive dissonance between them (think the black blind white supremacist david chapelle sketch).
To go back to the OP, the concept of a Safe Space hasn't been agreed upon, so a lot of the back and forth just is arguing from your definition against theirs.
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Now, as for the video, I have my opinions on this, some things said by Charles I agreed with. Some I did not. I do not wish to offend or upset anyone but I do disagree with anyone condemning or agreeing without at least finishing listening. I for one do not believe in making ill-informed decisions or judgements. And I do not believe you can make an informed judgement without all of the information. But again, that is just my opinion and my way of looking at things. Everyone else is entitled to their own as well.
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- Leah Starspectre
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TheDude wrote:
ren wrote: In doing so, you are rejecting the notion that people are different from you.
I actually find science to be a bit racist when it comes to humans. Biologists do not seem to have a problem calling marginally different animals different species, but humans? No we're all the same. Except we're not, and ignoring that fact is harmful to our health. As "race" isn't formally defined and corresponds to categorisations below sub-species, it makes absolutely no sense to avoid it or redefine it for humans.
I also find the humanocentrism in science (and most philosophy, for that matter) unbecoming. But I wouldn't consider Advaita Vedanta folks over in India to be racists, and they reject the notion that anything is different from anything else, which would necessarily include people. Actually, I find the idea of substance monism to be not only in line with the Force, but also an extremely viable logical conclusion (through Spinoza’s ontological argument for the existence of substance). I don't see how rejecting the idea that there is anything to discriminate against is a discriminatory idea, I think it's the exact opposite.
Is a absolutely a viable logical conclusion, but the human mind and human culture is not logical. It's messy, contradictory and full of inconsistency. Philosophy and logic often exist within a kind of intellectual vacuum, which is fine to theorize about, but entirely impractical in reality.
You can rarely "logic away" emotion, which is what this "safe space" debate is based on. There are groups of people who do not feel safe in their social context, whether or not they individually are in immediate danger. The point is that they feel they are not safe. The point of "safe spaces" is to allow nonjudgemental discourse in which their concerns can be heard and hopefully resolved. So rather than argue if their concerns are justified, why not simply listen and try to help them?
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- OB1Shinobi
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"This Claremont Safe Space for Women of Color Is Actually Pretty Hateful and Racist.
Students form identity-based group in order to bash people they don't like."
Are non-inclusive safe spaces—ones designed for members of a specific minority—bastions of toleration? Not at the Claremont Colleges.
One of the more curious demands made by activists students in the past few months has been the repeated call for segregated safe spaces: places where black students, Latino students, female students, etc., could go to feel comfortable and protected. Such spaces are often closed to people who don't belong to the group, even if those people are supportive. At the University of Missouri, for instance, students of color formed a blacks-only healing space, and asked white allies to leave. If the space were to be invaded by members of an out-group, it would become unsafe—that's the thinking.
The Claremont Independent, a conservative student newspaper of the Claremont Colleges, recently obtained screenshots from a virtual safe space: 5C Women of Color, a Facebook group for black female students at the colleges. The group was private. It no longer exists—the women shut it down after they discovered that the Independent was planning to run an article about it.
I don't really want to shame these young women, who probably never expected that their conversations would become fully public. And I'm sure context would mitigate the offensiveness of some of their remarks.
But the reality is undeniable: this so-called safe space is just really racist. One woman, an Asian student, referred to Asian men as "nerdy ones who can just hide in their tech caves" and "they get all angry when it comes to how Asian men are asexualized/emasculated." Another female student, who works for the Asian American Resource Center and sits on the mental health committee, commented, "F*ck your masculinity whiny Asian cis bros this is why I only hang out with femmes."
This person agreed to an interview with the Independent, so I will quote her by name:
"As a feminine gay Asian woman," Kristine Lee told the Independent, "I'm not interested in surrounding myself with the kind of possessive, toxic masculinity exhibited by the type of Asian American men we were discussing in the post."
Other students talked about their unwillingness to enroll in classes that would be "dominated by white men." Another student didn't want to take a class that was taught by a conservative professor of color.
One student, who had been adopted, complained about her white parents. Another responded by making fun of white people's paleness and receding hairlines.
It was okay to make fun of white people because they were responsible for colonialism, said another.
Again, these students are entitled to their feelings. They may have had really bad experiences with white and Asian men—and conservative black professors—that validate their feelings. But they are clearly demeaning entire categories of people based on specific negative interactions. Is this not a kind of racism?
One of the purposes of a college education is to undermine racist and collectivist thinking by exposing students to the uniqueness and intrinsic worth of all people, regardless of skin color, gender, sexuality, ability status, etc. Imagine a student from a socially conservative background meeting an out-gay person for the first time and developing a new attitude about gay rights, or a militant atheist learning to empathize with devout followers of Christianity or Islam, or a Midwesterner developing an appreciation for Chinese culture after taking a class about it. This is the public good that college is supposed to facilitate.
But if students break off into groups based on immutable identity—and constantly reaffirm their prejudices about members of other identity-based groups—they aren't just missing the point of college: they are actively working against it.
Students, of course, have free speech and assembly rights, and should be allowed to sort themselves into whatever groups they want (even at Harvard). It should go without saying, but I don't think Claremont should take any action against these students or discourage their activities. But the next time students demand a formal race-based safe space—they have already done so at Western Washington University, the University of Arizona, and other places—the public should keep in mind that there are good reasons to rebuff them.
that article links to this article
http://www.mediaite.com/online/mizzou-protesters-literally-segregate-themselves-based-on-race/
You can’t make this stuff up, folks; according to several tweets from people active in the University of Missouri racial equality protests, the protesters at one point segregated themselves by race.
At one point, protesters reported, “white allies” were “asked to leave.”
and this article
http://claremontindependent.com/3473-2/
"SAFE SPACE SHUT DOWN AFTER ANTI-WHITE, ANTI-MALE STATEMENTS LEAKED"
Recently, the Independent obtained screenshots from the “5C Women of Color” Facebook group. According to its description, the group—accessible only to its 1,100 approved members—is “for 5C students and alumnae who identify as women of color to reach out and serve as resources/support for one another.” Many of the page’s most popular posts mock those who do not identify as women of color.
In response to her adoptive white father making jokes at her expense, Sarah Weiyun Otterstrom (SC ‘17) posted “I just need to get this out. I hate having white parents so much.” Another student responded by instructing Otterstrom to tell her father that “his pale ass is worthless and the sun doesn’t even like him. Talk about his receding hairline, the fact that he probably looks 20 years older than he actually is, and that he probably has a small penis.”
Additionally, Namrata Mohan (SC ‘16) stated that her family “ha
Rachel Song (PO ‘18), who posted in the group for advice on classes, stated that she was concerned about taking “PSYC141: Leading Entrepreneurial Ventures” because she is “afraid [it] is going to be a class full of white, male business bros.” Lanna Sanchez (PO ‘19) noted that she is “kinda scared to take a politics course in general since this space is typically dominated by white men.” Sanchez added that a class taught by a “conservative POC [person of color] professor” also “raised a red flag.”
Catherine Chiang (SC ‘16)—who was elected by her peers to be the senior class speaker at Scripps College’s commencement ceremony this year and who is an acting intern at the Scripps Communities of Resources and Empowerment program—stated, “asian boys r a social issue,” to which other students responded “esp [especially] the nerdy ones who can just hide in their tech caves” and “they get all angry when it comes to how Asian men are asexualized/emasculated.” Kristine Lee (PO ‘17), a staff member of the Pomona College Asian American Resource Center who sits on the “Production” and “Mental Health” committees there added, “F*ck your masculinity whiny Asian cis bros this is why I only hang out with femmes.”
“As a feminine gay Asian woman,” Kristine Lee told the Independent, “I’m not interested in surrounding myself with the kind of possessive, toxic masculinity exhibited by the type of Asian American men we were discussing in the post.” In response to these discussions, Ji In “Kit” Lee (PO ‘17), another Pomona College Asian American Resource Center staff member, wrote “mehehehe I love this group.”
Not all students of color agree with the page’s sentiments. Carlos Perrett (PZ ’18), who spoke with the Independent, expressed his disapproval of the statements made on the 5C Women of Color page. “Facebook groups like the 5C Women of Color not only lack inclusion, but also fail to meet their purposes of creating a space of support. Instead these groups have become the perfect outlet for shaming, hostility, and discrimination.” Earlier this year, Claremont saw similar safe spaces intended to be “pro-POC, pro-black, and anti-white supremacist” established with clauses stating that “[w]hile you may want to invite a white friend or ally, to make this a safe and comfortable space for other POC, we ask that you do not.”
After the Independent reached out to members of the 5C Women of Color group for additional comment, the page was shut down. “We found out that screen shots of our interactions were taken by people who work for the Claremont Independent, and they’re geared to write an article,” wrote Kit Lee (PO ’17). “In order to preserve the confidentiality of past conversations and healthy discussions that have occurred in this group,” she continued, “we will shut down the group … to prevent whoever is the mole from leaking more screenshots to the CI.”
i think its obviously a matter of context, yes there should be times and places where people agree to be good to each other
if i own a company or am in a position of authority in general, i want the environment to be "safe" from harassment, yes absolutely, but my aim would not be to impose some totalitarian regime of censorship over everyone, it would be to encourage genuine camaraderie, which doesnt happen as a result of censorship or coddling, but of openness to each others experiences and input
if you want to rent a hotel room and only invite your friends then by all means, go ahead, but if you start demanding that the rest f society become "safe space" where you are not subjected to any ideas or words that might offend you, thats when i have a problem
public space is not safe, the realm of ideas is not safe, it cant be, because the world isnt safe or gentle and we have to be be able to discuss things honestly
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/opinion/sunday/judith-shulevitz-hiding-from-scary-ideas.html?_r=0
"In College and Hiding From Scary Ideas"
Judith Shulevitz MARCH 21, 2015
KATHERINE BYRON, a senior at Brown University and a member of its Sexual Assault Task Force, considers it her duty to make Brown a safe place for rape victims, free from anything that might prompt memories of trauma.
So when she heard last fall that a student group had organized a debate about campus sexual assault between Jessica Valenti, the founder of feministing.com, and Wendy McElroy, a libertarian, and that Ms. McElroy was likely to criticize the term “rape culture,” Ms. Byron was alarmed. “Bringing in a speaker like that could serve to invalidate people’s experiences,” she told me. It could be “damaging.”
Ms. Byron and some fellow task force members secured a meeting with administrators. Not long after, Brown’s president, Christina H. Paxson, announced that the university would hold a simultaneous, competing talk to provide “research and facts” about “the role of culture in sexual assault.” Meanwhile, student volunteers put up posters advertising that a “safe space” would be available for anyone who found the debate too upsetting.
The safe space, Ms. Byron explained, was intended to give people who might find comments “troubling” or “triggering,” a place to recuperate. The room was equipped with cookies, coloring books, bubbles, Play-Doh, calming music, pillows, blankets and a video of frolicking puppies, as well as students and staff members trained to deal with trauma. Emma Hall, a junior, rape survivor and “sexual assault peer educator” who helped set up the room and worked in it during the debate, estimates that a couple of dozen people used it. At one point she went to the lecture hall — it was packed — but after a while, she had to return to the safe space. “I was feeling bombarded by a lot of viewpoints that really go against my dearly and closely held beliefs,” Ms. Hall said.
Safe spaces are an expression of the conviction, increasingly prevalent among college students, that their schools should keep them from being “bombarded” by discomfiting or distressing viewpoints. Think of the safe space as the live-action version of the better-known trigger warning, a notice put on top of a syllabus or an assigned reading to alert students to the presence of potentially disturbing material.
Some people trace safe spaces back to the feminist consciousness-raising groups of the 1960s and 1970s, others to the gay and lesbian movement of the early 1990s. In most cases, safe spaces are innocuous gatherings of like-minded people who agree to refrain from ridicule, criticism or what they term microaggressions — subtle displays of racial or sexual bias — so that everyone can relax enough to explore the nuances of, say, a fluid gender identity. As long as all parties consent to such restrictions, these little islands of self-restraint seem like a perfectly fine idea.
But the notion that ticklish conversations must be scrubbed clean of controversy has a way of leaking out and spreading. Once you designate some spaces as safe, you imply that the rest are unsafe. It follows that they should be made safer.
This logic clearly informed a campaign undertaken this fall by a Columbia University student group called Everyone Allied Against Homophobia that consisted of slipping a flier under the door of every dorm room on campus. The headline of the flier stated, “I want this space to be a safer space.” The text below instructed students to tape the fliers to their windows. The group’s vice president then had the flier published in the Columbia Daily Spectator, the student newspaper, along with an editorial asserting that “making spaces safer is about learning how to be kind to each other.”
A junior named Adam Shapiro decided he didn’t want his room to be a safer space. He printed up his own flier calling it a dangerous space and had that, too, published in the Columbia Daily Spectator. “Kindness alone won’t allow us to gain more insight into truth,” he wrote. In an interview, Mr. Shapiro said, “If the point of a safe space is therapy for people who feel victimized by traumatization, that sounds like a great mission.” But a safe-space mentality has begun infiltrating classrooms, he said, making both professors and students loath to say anything that might hurt someone’s feelings. “I don’t see how you can have a therapeutic space that’s also an intellectual space,” he said.
I’m old enough to remember a time when college students objected to providing a platform to certain speakers because they were deemed politically unacceptable. Now students worry whether acts of speech or pieces of writing may put them in emotional peril. Two weeks ago, students at Northwestern University marched to protest an article by Laura Kipnis, a professor in the university’s School of Communication. Professor Kipnis had criticized — O.K., ridiculed — what she called the sexual paranoia pervading campus life.
The protesters carried mattresses and demanded that the administration condemn the essay. One student complained that Professor Kipnis was “erasing the very traumatic experience” of victims who spoke out. An organizer of the demonstration said, “we need to be setting aside spaces to talk” about “victim-blaming.” Last Wednesday, Northwestern’s president, Morton O. Schapiro, wrote an op-ed article in The Wall Street Journal affirming his commitment to academic freedom. But plenty of others at universities are willing to dignify students’ fears, citing threats to their stability as reasons to cancel debates, disinvite commencement speakers and apologize for so-called mistakes.
At Oxford University’s Christ Church college in November, the college censors (a “censor” being more or less the Oxford equivalent of an undergraduate dean) canceled a debate on abortion after campus feminists threatened to disrupt it because both would-be debaters were men. “I’m relieved the censors have made this decision,” said the treasurer of Christ Church’s student union, who had pressed for the cancellation. “It clearly makes the most sense for the safety — both physical and mental — of the students who live and work in Christ Church.”
A year and a half ago, a Hampshire College student group disinvited an Afrofunk band that had been attacked on social media for having too many white musicians; the vitriolic discussion had made students feel “unsafe.”
Last fall, the president of Smith College, Kathleen McCartney, apologized for causing students and faculty to be “hurt” when she failed to object to a racial epithet uttered by a fellow panel member at an alumnae event in New York. The offender was the free-speech advocate Wendy Kaminer, who had been arguing against the use of the euphemism “the n-word” when teaching American history or “The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.” In the uproar that followed, the Student Government Association wrote a letter declaring that “if Smith is unsafe for one student, it is unsafe for all students.”
“It’s amazing to me that they can’t distinguish between racist speech and speech about racist speech, between racism and discussions of racism,” Ms. Kaminer said in an email.
The confusion is telling, though. It shows that while keeping college-level discussions “safe” may feel good to the hypersensitive, it’s bad for them and for everyone else. People ought to go to college to sharpen their wits and broaden their field of vision. Shield them from unfamiliar ideas, and they’ll never learn the discipline of seeing the world as other people see it. They’ll be unprepared for the social and intellectual headwinds that will hit them as soon as they step off the campuses whose climates they have so carefully controlled. What will they do when they hear opinions they’ve learned to shrink from? If they want to change the world, how will they learn to persuade people to join them?
Only a few of the students want stronger anti-hate-speech codes. Mostly they ask for things like mandatory training sessions and stricter enforcement of existing rules. Still, it’s disconcerting to see students clamor for a kind of intrusive supervision that would have outraged students a few generations ago. But those were hardier souls. Now students’ needs are anticipated by a small army of service professionals — mental health counselors, student-life deans and the like. This new bureaucracy may be exacerbating students’ “self-infantilization,” as Judith Shapiro, the former president of Barnard College, suggested in an essay for Inside Higher Ed.
But why are students so eager to self-infantilize? Their parents should probably share the blame. Eric Posner, a professor at the University of Chicago Law School, wrote on Slate last month that although universities cosset students more than they used to, that’s what they have to do, because today’s undergraduates are more puerile than their predecessors. “Perhaps overprogrammed children engineered to the specifications of college admissions offices no longer experience the risks and challenges that breed maturity,” he wrote. But “if college students are children, then they should be protected like children.”
Another reason students resort to the quasi-medicalized terminology of trauma is that it forces administrators to respond. Universities are in a double bind. They’re required by two civil-rights statutes, Title VII and Title IX, to ensure that their campuses don’t create a “hostile environment” for women and other groups subject to harassment. However, universities are not supposed to go too far in suppressing free speech, either. If a university cancels a talk or punishes a professor and a lawsuit ensues, history suggests that the university will lose. But if officials don’t censure or don’t prevent speech that may inflict psychological damage on a member of a protected class, they risk fostering a hostile environment and prompting an investigation. As a result, students who say they feel unsafe are more likely to be heard than students who demand censorship on other grounds.
The theory that vulnerable students should be guaranteed psychological security has roots in a body of legal thought elaborated in the 1980s and 1990s and still read today. Feminist and anti-racist legal scholars argued that the First Amendment should not safeguard language that inflicted emotional injury through racist or sexist stigmatization. One scholar, Mari J. Matsuda, was particularly insistent that college students not be subjected to “the violence of the word” because many of them “are away from home for the first time and at a vulnerable stage of psychological development.” If they’re targeted and the university does nothing to help them, they will be “left to their own resources in coping with the damage wrought.” That might have, she wrote, “lifelong repercussions.”
Perhaps. But Ms. Matsuda doesn’t seem to have considered the possibility that insulating students could also make them, well, insular. A few weeks ago, Zineb El Rhazoui, a journalist at Charlie Hebdo, spoke at the University of Chicago, protected by the security guards she has traveled with since supporters of the Islamic State issued death threats against her. During the question-and-answer period, a Muslim student stood up to object to the newspaper’s apparent disrespect for Muslims and to express her dislike of the phrase “I am Charlie.”
Ms. El Rhazoui replied, somewhat irritably, “Being Charlie Hebdo means to die because of a drawing,” and not everyone has the guts to do that (although she didn’t use the word guts). She lives under constant threat, Ms. El Rhazoui said. The student answered that she felt threatened, too.
A few days later, a guest editorialist in the student newspaper took Ms. El Rhazoui to task. She had failed to ensure “that others felt safe enough to express dissenting opinions.” Ms. El Rhazoui’s “relative position of power,” the writer continued, had granted her a “free pass to make condescending attacks on a member of the university.” In a letter to the editor, the president and the vice president of the University of Chicago French Club, which had sponsored the talk, shot back, saying, “El Rhazoui is an immigrant, a woman, Arab, a human-rights activist who has known exile, and a journalist living in very real fear of death. She was invited to speak precisely because her right to do so is, quite literally, under threat.”
You’d be hard-pressed to avoid the conclusion that the student and her defender had burrowed so deep inside their cocoons, were so overcome by their own fragility, that they couldn’t see that it was Ms. El Rhazoui who was in need of a safer space.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdlkU21LhXk
People are complicated.
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OB1Shinobi wrote: [Jamie's note: from the article in the first spoiler] Are non-inclusive safe spaces—ones designed for members of a specific minority—bastions of toleration? Not at the Claremont Colleges.
There is a rub between moderate liberals, left liberals, and leftists about what the goal should be: tolerance, diversity, cultural competence, etc. Each has a historical place within the development of socially progressive thought and each has a connotation in today's context. Tolerance is a farce.
Furthermore, there's a paradox in racial justice: white people stuck together often times tend towards racial prejudice. People of color in their own cultural or ethnic groups often times become more capable and confident in who they are and able to help others (even white people) develop understanding and empathy. Of course, having these people of color-specific circles can be difficult because people on the outside looking in don't understand the benefit. For more on this, I'd suggest Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria: And Other Conversations About Race by Dr. Beverly Daniel Tatum .
OB1Shinobi wrote: At one point, protesters reported, “white allies” were “asked to leave.”
This would make sense if you gave it a good long think, maybe. I'll help by way of metaphor: If I've had multiple traumatic car accidents, would it be unreasonable to ask that I not be forced to socialize with new friends in a parked car?
OB1Shinobi wrote: [Jamie's note: from the article in the second spoiler] In response to her adoptive white father making jokes at her expense, Sarah Weiyun Otterstrom (SC ‘17) posted “I just need to get this out. I hate having white parents so much.” Another student responded by instructing Otterstrom to tell her father that “his pale ass is worthless and the sun doesn’t even like him. Talk about his receding hairline, the fact that he probably looks 20 years older than he actually is, and that he probably has a small penis.”
I'm laughing my ass off. Where's the bad part? For more on this, I'd suggest: “The Uses of Anger: Women Responding to Racism” by Audre Lorde .
I know that people love a good story that reminds us how weak and pathetic liberals are, how fragile millenials are, and how social justice is nothing more than a ploy to oppress white cis straight men, but this stuff is really like two people talking to each other in the cleanest city in the world and one saying, "Can I have a stick of gum?" and the media reports, "GUM IN THE STREETS OF THE CLEANEST CITY IN THE WORLD!"
It's ill-informed fear mongering.
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Jamie Stick wrote: Furthermore, there's a paradox in racial justice: white people stuck together often times tend towards racial prejudice. People of color in their own cultural or ethnic groups often times become more capable and confident in who they are and able to help others (even white people) develop understanding and empathy. Of course, having these people of color-specific circles can be difficult because people on the outside looking in don't understand the benefit.
Omg. I can't believe that I actually feel that I have to respond to this. I am open to most ideas. I always am and for the most part I almost always have been. I lead a life in search of knowledge. But I am absolutely stunned that anyone who claims any open-mindedness at all, or claims to search for truth of any kind could ever make such a bold and opinionated statement worded as "fact". Everyone is allowed their own opinion. I truly believe that. But any remotely educated person, in my opinion, should know the difference between fact and opinion and that was stated as fact. And offering something to read to justify an opinionated statement as fact seems no different to me than someone coming on here stating something else just as opinionated from the other end of the spectrum and saying you should read Mein Kampf and that makes it fact.
Now I do not agree with either side of the spectrum. I believe we are all human and that is fact. Skin color means nothing to me. That does not however mean that I disregard anyone's cultural heritage. But I am not going to know a black person's cultural heritage any better than I will know a white person's cultural heritage or and Asian person's or a Latin person's and anyone else's and neither will anyone else unless there is some other distinguishing feature other than skin color. The only way I would know an Italian from any other white person is by getting to know them. That goes for Black, Latin, Asian, green, purple, and neon orange as well. All of our heritages are different and we will never know about them until we stop all of this and somehow(and I really wish I knew how) pull our heads out of our asses as a species and realize that while we have histories that are different....WE ARE ALL HUMAN.
I apologize, I should not have capitalized that but that is what came out so I won't change it now. I hope I haven't upset anyone with this but if I have I also apologize for that.
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- Leah Starspectre
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Lancer wrote: But any remotely educated person, in my opinion, should know the difference between fact and opinion and that was stated as fact. And offering something to read to justify an opinionated statement as fact seems no different to me than someone coming on here stating something else just as opinionated from the other end of the spectrum and saying you should read Mein Kampf and that makes it fact.
1. I realize that the backlash on this idea would be strong so that's why I provided a solid resource that talks about this.
2. I didn't just pull this out my behind. This is a fairly well researched phenomena.
EDIT: Let's not fall into the Godwin's Law trap, shall we?
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Jamie Stick wrote:
Lancer wrote: But any remotely educated person, in my opinion, should know the difference between fact and opinion and that was stated as fact. And offering something to read to justify an opinionated statement as fact seems no different to me than someone coming on here stating something else just as opinionated from the other end of the spectrum and saying you should read Mein Kampf and that makes it fact.
1. I realize that the backlash on this idea would be strong so that's why I provided a solid resource that talks about this.
2. I didn't just pull this out my behind. This is a fairly well researched phenomena.
To be fair, Audrey is hardly an unbiased source of information. I'm not sure about Tatum, quick Google search resulted in saying that she's a clinical psychologist, and psychology has a long history of extremely biased practitioners. I would know, I've studied it formally and extensively. Not to mention current trends in the APA which tend to favor public opinion over scientific research.
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Jamie Stick wrote: Furthermore, there's a paradox in racial justice: white people stuck together often times tend towards racial prejudice. People of color in their own cultural or ethnic groups often times become more capable and confident in who they are and able to help others (even white people) develop understanding and empathy. Of course, having these people of color-specific circles can be difficult because people on the outside looking in don't understand the benefit.
Yea the paradox is interesting. I reckon its local majority or power, not race. Sure in the US generally speaking those racial terms might be accurate, but the use of racial terms seems to extend the scope of the participants well beyond the nature of their participation and the results evident in that paradox. I say that because I tend to stick to the definition of race as being around physical characteristics so use of race language then to me directly implies some biological foundation - which in this case I think would be inaccurate and not even intended?
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Leah Starspectre wrote:
ren wrote:
From what I've heard from POC, ignoring their race is invalidating their culture/experience, be they good or bad. They wish their race be acknowledged, not ignored or persecuted.
Although race doesn't exist in DNA, it still exists in culture and cultural experience.
Race exists in DNA. The cultural race thing is a load of nonsense. The nazis did it with the jews and the SJWs do it with everyone. Bunch of fucking arseholes, the lot of them.
Cultures are cultures, they are not owned and certainly not on the basis of people's physical characteristics. Most importantly, people with certain physical characteristics are not responsible for any particular cultures. nuff said
No no, not "nuff said." Are you denying that race-based culture exists?
Race-based culture does exist. It's called racism.
And just because the Nazis were obsessed with race to a degree where they believed that one race (and really, only particular characteristics within one race) was superior to the others, that doesn't mean that every who acknowledges race is a Nazi..or a SJW.
What the nazis did is mix race with culture. There is no jewish race. The european jews they persecuted were far more european than semitic. European jews do not look like semites, and Yiddish is not a semitic language, it is a germanic language. What the nazis did is associate the culture of a minority of jews with an inexistent jewish race. The nazis showed us how much power could be gathered and used to control and persecute using this method. SJWs use this method to do the same, although they have found more efficient methods of dealing with their undesirables.
I'm an immigrant, and so is my wife. We're from different continents and at opposite ends of the skin colour spectrum. My race does not define my culture (although people never manage to figure me out anyway), and my wife's race most certainly does not define her culture, in fact it severely aggravates her when people believe that it does or suggest that it should.And no, race doesn't *automatically* define one's culture. But for many, it does. Why do you think so many immigrants tend to live together in the same neighbourhoods? Because it gives them comfort to be close to those of the same culture (and, depending on the culture, race) as they themselves are part of.
Acknowledging difference in race/culture only means racism if we choose to be divisive rather than inclusive.
Acknowledging a difference in culture has got nothing to do with racism. Race is physical, culture spiritual.
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TheDude wrote:
To be fair, Audrey is hardly an unbiased source of information.
By McBride's own standard, Audre Lorde is the most qualified to speak on black women's anger. You're welcome to disagree with me, but at least be consistent.
TheDude wrote: I'm not sure about Tatum, quick Google search resulted in saying that she's a clinical psychologist, and psychology has a long history of extremely biased practitioners. I would know, I've studied it formally and extensively. Not to mention current trends in the APA which tend to favor public opinion over scientific research.
I too have studied psychology and know of its troubled past, however I cannot dismiss it wholesale and neither can you. If you want to do your own research and furnish evidence that suggests Tatum's work is bunk, be my guest.
EDIT: Also, it seems a bit funny that someone has to get a PhD to be taken seriously and yet somehow someone has the nerve to try to discredit them with a 5-second Google search.
I work with APA academically and professionally. Just because something coincides with public opinion doesn't mean it's abandoned the peer-reviewed methodology (in fact, it's usually because of public opinion that research on certain issues ever sees the light of day).
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I think that's the difference between me and people who care about unimportant garbage like identity politics. I don't think anyone is more or less qualified to talk about any issue due to circumstances beyond their control. You and I are just as qualified to talk about any issue facing any person or group of people. I just wanted to point out that it's not exactly a solid resource. Nothing I've said has been inconsistent.Jamie Stick wrote: By McBride's own standard, Audre Lorde is the most qualified to speak on black women's anger. You're welcome to disagree with me, but at least be consistent.
Never heard of her before. You could've linked to a study or something with at least some statistics behind it. I'm not going to read a huge publication like a book or novel just to see if someone's a trustworthy resource or not, lol. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would. That's a lot of work for very little purpose, and if it's scientifically based the information should be readily available in an easily read graph or chart, like with most psychology publications I've seen. Scientists tend to streamline information in an easily accessible manner, at least in all of the modern publications I've read.I too have studied psychology and know of its troubled past, however I cannot dismiss it wholesale and neither can you. If you want to do your own research and furnish evidence that suggests Tatum's work is bunk, be my guest.
5 second Google search is enough to figure out that Melissa Click is an idiot regardless of her Ph.D. It's enough to find any resource on Plato or Nietzsche or Kant I might want. I've met plenty of Ph.D. holders who didn't seem like they had a brain between their ears. I legitimately know homeless people with no formal education who are far more intelligent than half of the Ph.D.'s I've met. In my experience, most people with Ph.D.'s who are working at research universities have a very, very poor understanding of the common people. Ivory tower and all that. Including in clinical psychology programs. Degrees mean pretty much nothing. Smartest person I know is a drop-out, and I know plenty of Ph.D.'s.EDIT: Also, it seems a bit funny that someone has to get a PhD to be taken seriously and yet somehow someone has the nerve to try to discredit them with a 5-second Google search.
Oh come now, the primary source of dissatisfaction that I and most other people in the field I know have towards the APA is their tendency to move towards the politically correct. I know quite a few L.P.'s with their Ph.D.'s who consider the newest DSM to be an absolute joke and a disgrace to the field. It's not as if I'm the only one saying this.I work with APA academically and professionally. Just because something coincides with public opinion doesn't mean it's abandoned the peer-reviewed methodology (in fact, it's usually because of public opinion that research on certain issues ever sees the light of day).
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For the record, I read books all the time to understand and critique; it's part of the critical thinking process. In fact, it's hard to read a book any other way now (which gets really annoying when I'm reading fiction for fun). I do it with television and film as well. I'm not saying it's easy and it's definitely time consuming, but it means that I can sniff out a flimsy argument pretty quickly (ironically, it can be hard to see my own). So please, if you're going to argue with me you're going to have to do a lot better than "You have to agree..." and "I did a quick Google search" because there is no way in hell I can take your argument seriously when that's your approach.
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That...really, is the only Critique I have for Charles's speach.
The rest i wholeheartedly agree with. To answer the OP's question
"Is this the right direction for Jedi to go?"
No. It is not.
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Jamie Stick wrote: I know this is going to sound as though I'm just being a contrarian or picking a fight for the sake of it, but most of what you posted doesn't surprise me nor is it racist.
i dont think youre just being contrary, i think that we see things very differently
youre promoting the ideas that you think are best for society, as i am
Jamie Stick wrote: There is a rub between moderate liberals, left liberals, and leftists about what the goal should be: tolerance, diversity, cultural competence, etc. Each has a historical place within the development of socially progressive thought and each has a connotation in today's context. Tolerance is a farce.
that would depend on what you mean by "tolerance" and also what you think "intolerance" means
when someone is promoting ideas that will increase the amount of hate and violence in society, bigotry and racism for example, it is farcical to claim oneself "an instrument of peace" while turning a blind eye and responding with only silence
but the extreme end of intolerance is outright extermination, not simply of the ideas but of the people who believe them
i am curious, what do you think about the extermination of white people?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEqa90XpPw0
there is no one else who posts here who is as overtly racist as you are, so when i ask "what do you think about the extermination of white people?" it is because i wonder how much the idea appeals to you
?
i mean, its a pretty intolerant solution, which would perhaps be naturally attractive to one who holds that "tolerance is a farce"
but do you not see how tolerance is something that also works in your favor?
american society has violent and hateful elements in it but i dont think theres ever been a MORE tolerant generation than todays-
it seems to me that each generation or so is more tolerant than those before, more open to racial and gender and orientation equality than their parents or grandparents were?
but i would point out on that note, that the obnoxiousness of the current gen might just backlash and create less tolerance in the near future, because when you promote racism and bigotry, thats what you create: intolerance
Jamie Stick wrote: Furthermore, there's a paradox in racial justice: white people stuck together often times tend towards racial prejudice. People of color in their own cultural or ethnic groups often times become more capable and confident in who they are and able to help others (even white people) develop understanding and empathy. Of course, having these people of color-specific circles can be difficult because people on the outside looking in don't understand the benefit. For more on this, I'd suggest Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria: And Other Conversations About Race by Dr. Beverly Daniel Tatum .
lol ive been to schools and jails and ive lived in low income black neighborhoods and mexican neighborhoods, and my own experience has shown me that blacks and mexicans at leas are just as likely to be violent and bigoted when they get together as whites are
and even if this werent true, the more you are successful in pushing the "white people are scum" ideology, the more racist and violent people of all the other races are going to be towards whites
if you think that will make society better then youre crazy, more violence is not good, even if it makes you feel good to see that your enemy is being punished
also, this idea that everyone who is not white is "poc" and has the same cultural experience is just utterly stupid lol
not being white doesnt unify people or make people any more alike to each other than not being left handed, or not being born after 1990 - its just another example of the racist over-simplification of the SJW movement, which is why i refuse to use the term
lol "POC"; sounds like the name of a boy-band or something
"YOU DOWN WITH POC YEAH YOU KNOW ME" lol
Jamie Stick wrote:
OB1Shinobi wrote: At one point, protesters reported, “white allies” were “asked to leave.”
This would make sense if you gave it a good long think, maybe. I'll help by way of metaphor: If I've had multiple traumatic car accidents, would it be unreasonable to ask that I not be forced to socialize with new friends in a parked car?
i think this is insulting to people who have actually been in traumatic car accidents!
but your metaphor is great because it demonstrates the silliness of the thinking: you left your house to go to a public event, then you told members of that public event that they have to leave because you are traumatized
well that's pretty ***** stupid lol
i agree that it would be unreasonable if those friends of yours drove their car into your therapists office (right through the walls!) while you were trying to come to terms with what the frailty of human existence actually means to you personally
or if they came into your home where you were recovering and yelled "beep beep OMG LOOK OUT AAHHHHH!!" really loud and crashed some pans and pots together
but if you choose to go out to the event then you cant really say youre being "forced" to endure the presence of the people who are there can you?
i mean you could just leave right?
and if you want to host an event with no white people, or with only people of a certain race or ethnicity, you could just say so from the beginning right? make it clear from the get-go that your event is only for a specific group
and this is a fundamental difference of perspective that we have: i dont think that it is societies responsibility to adapt itself to my frailties, i think it is my responsibility to make myself capable of interacting with society in a functional and effective way
and i would never EVER think that i should tell other people in a public space to leave because i am uncomfortable around them, i would leave myself or i would bear my discomfort
the idea that the of the rest of society should bow down and submit themselves to my demands as a result of the fact that i cannot function properly in their company is just ridiculous to me (ridiculous: worthy of ridicule)
i have been robbed, chased and pelted with rocks, jumped by groups, in school, in church, and in my neighborhoods, and in lockup, ive been beaten unconscious and stomped on while unconscious
ive had to go to the emergency room because of violent injuries, for which i still bear scars
ive been in situations where i had to fight because if i didnt fight i was going to get fu*ked up lol
these events all happened as a consequence of my socioeconomic status and most were racially motivated, in the sense that i was a targeted because of my race
and it would never ever occur to me to ask "my allies" to leave when we are working together to achieve a common cause, whatever color they might be
thats the stupidest, most petulant (and counterproductive) thing ive ever heard lol
i think those kids are idiots, not victims
poor little snowflakes lol
i dont believe any one of them have been so traumatized that they cant function around white people, especially white people WHO ARE ON THEIR SIDE
and if they had, then i believe they shouldnt go out in public: if youre so effed up that you cant handle society without having a mental breakdown or losing your emotional equilibrium, then YOU need to stay out of society until you get yourself together
OB1Shinobi wrote: [Jamie's note: from the article in the second spoiler] In response to her adoptive white father making jokes at her expense, Sarah Weiyun Otterstrom (SC ‘17) posted “I just need to get this out. I hate having white parents so much.” Another student responded by instructing Otterstrom to tell her father that “his pale ass is worthless and the sun doesn’t even like him. Talk about his receding hairline, the fact that he probably looks 20 years older than he actually is, and that he probably has a small penis.”
Jamie Stick wrote: I'm laughing my ass off. Where's the bad part? For more on this, I'd suggest: “The Uses of Anger: Women Responding to Racism” by Audre Lorde .
i understand that you can come up with all kinds of justifications for why racism and bigotry are OK as long as its your preferred groups targeting the group/s that you despise, but thats more a result of you being racist than of it actually being ok
you ask "where is the bad?"
well im not even saying that its so bad, per se
i mean, theres nothing new about whiny, privileged little girls saying they hate their parents, or mean spirited people taking an opportunity to be venomous to someone they dont even know
those are common occurrences, especially among people who are basically spoiled and self centered
see? im doing it too! so its actually in my best interest to have some compassion here: but its not something that ought to receive institutional support from a college campus is it?
i mean its not really making the world a better place or anything
Jamie Stick wrote: I know that people love a good story that reminds us how weak and pathetic liberals are, how fragile millenials are, and how social justice is nothing more than a ploy to oppress white cis straight men, but this stuff is really like two people talking to each other in the cleanest city in the world and one saying, "Can I have a stick of gum?" and the media reports, "GUM IN THE STREETS OF THE CLEANEST CITY IN THE WORLD!"
It's ill-informed fear mongering.
well, i disagree
i dont think that "“his pale ass is worthless and the sun doesn’t even like him. Talk about his receding hairline, the fact that he probably looks 20 years older than he actually is, and that he probably has a small penis.” is anything at all like "can i have a stick of gum?"
thats not even close lol
its more like "whinny kids claim "safe space" then use it as a medium to practice their own version of hatefulness"
some of these are stupid but some are great
"emotional tantrums dont lead to reforms" and "why did you make riot-shaming a thing? people who riot SHOULD BE ASHAMED!"
lol exactly.
thank you, black people on the internets: high-five
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEHb-5s4jW4
People are complicated.
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Connor L. wrote: Kit, your words sting even though they're true. hahaha. I love my wifi at the gatherings... lol :whistle:
Hey who doesn't?
Last two years has been way above "Reasonable" IMO
Regardless
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- OB1Shinobi
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OB1Shinobi wrote:
well that's pretty ***** stupid lol
i dont mean that you personally are stupid
OB1Shinobi wrote: and this is a fundamental difference of perspective that we have: i dont think that it is societies responsibility to adapt itself to my frailties, i think it is my responsibility to make myself capable of interacting with society in a functional and effective way
this is an assumption i have made based on things youve said, and maybe there is merit to it and maybe there isnt but i shouldnt state it as if its a proven fact or as if i really know
and that should have been "society's" and not "societies" lol
like i said in the beginning of that last post, i believe you are promoting the ideas that you think are best for society, which i certainly respect
my opinion is that your ideas, the ones i have seen at least, are going to contribute more resentment and hostility to our culture than alleviate, and will cause more problems than they solve
i have the impression that your ideas are more about attacking the group that you dont like than they are about about empowering the groups you do like, and so all i see is an attack
i dont know if you see it that way but thats how it comes across to me as an observer, and thats why i respond as i do
but i also believe that everyone here at totjo is here for the right reasons, and that we should be able to share our views respectfully
i dont have anything against you as a person, i just see things differently
People are complicated.
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