BBC News - "Have Jedis created a new religion?"

Why? Jedi has two meanings. One is fictional, the other real. I don't see anything inherently sad in some (myself included) identifying with one and not the other.

I mean... my midichlorian count alone rules me out of the former. :whistle:

Edan wrote: I'm not saying I want to forget about them, I just would rather they didn't quote Yoda everytime they talk about Jediism..

Why not? Frank Oz speaking deeply philosophically, backwards, through a Muppet was probably the highlight of the entire series for me.

tzb wrote: Why? Jedi has two meanings. One is fictional, the other real. I don't see anything inherently sad in some (myself included) identifying with one and not the other.

I'm going to try to say this clearly and delicately, but I'll probably balls it all up, and I'm fine with that, too.

The farther we try to distance ourselves from "the source" while using the same title, the more we're hurting ourselves. Why?

Well, for starters, there's nothing at all wrong with using fiction as the basis for self-improvement--the rest of the world's religions do it daily--especially one which is based on the exact same sources that we teach here at the Temple. The fiction isn't inherently shameful and we should stop treating it like it is; it's a vehicle for enlightenment just the same as the Upanishads or whatever your favorite Watts book is, or a Krishnamurti lecture, or Russel Brand's latest viral video. Yes. It's fictional. So is Blade Runner, and it teaches us a very lot about where we draw the boundaries on being "human." So is Star Trek, arguably the most progressive television show to ever exist, which routinely teaches us values like tolerance and understanding and the value of life. If we start discounting fiction for the sake of discounting fiction, you have an entire generation of people who've learned valueable life lessons from Harry Potter that they didn't have access to learning in their home life that are going to take three giant steps backward. Just because it's fictional doesn't mean it's not valuable.

Secondly, the word is a trademark of LucasFilms, LTD., now owned by Disney, the reason that intellectual property laws got really, super, heavily codified. This word, "Jedi", has a very specific pop-culture meaning that dates back to 1977, and is wholly different than the sources from which it originally came. Because of this, when you say the word "jedi", people the world over automatically assume what you're talking about, because they have a nearly-inescapable reference point. Even people who have never seen Star Wars know about Jedi, generally. So, when you choose to use a word that heavily and strongly identified with a certain idea, with a certain frame of reference, and then insist that isn't what you mean at all it makes you look really silly. You either look dishonest or you look like you're ashamed of where you got the title. Either of these cases is ridiculously damning for any group that wants to be taken seriously. If, instead of Jedi, we decided to call ourselves the "Religion of Coca-Cola" and then only served Pepsi at our get-togethers, we'd be instantly outed as frauds, no matter what we claimed "Coca-Cola" meant to us. Distancing ourselves overmuch from the source material hurts our public image and our credibility.

Thirdly, Star Wars has nearly worldwide brand recognition, as said before. What this means is that we barely even have to advertise, the movies do it for us. All people need to know about real Jedi is that we exist (as per articles like these), and they will flock out of curiosity to us. Some of them will stay if it suits them, others will not. That's fine. We're not in the proselytizing business anyhow, generally speaking. But what this means is that we really don't have to do anything but sit back and watch our numbers increase all on their own and be excellent human beings. Every time we say "we're not like those Jedi", we're kicking our already-miniscule membership numbers in the face and essentially telling curious people that we aren't at all what they want in their lives before they even know what we're about.

That's why it makes me sad.

Steamboat.....Yes. *nod of respect* I've no further word to add save. Yes.^

Or as we used to say back in the old days

+1

I feel, we are only what we are, both on an individual basis, and on a whole. I am a part of the community known as real world Jedi. However, I am just Ethan. I have many sources of inspiration both fictional and non-fictional. I will not try to speak for nor flat represent the entire community since I am only one member in it. So, whether or not this group uses one particular source of inspiration or another, or none at all, does not concern me. We all have other sources of inspiration other than just Jedi and those sources are always present in one way or another. We can acknowledge our inspiration from Star Wars, but we can also acknowledge our inspiration from whatever else we each personally derive that inspiration from. It makes no difference. However, I feel none of you should be neither ashamed nor attached to any one source, such as Jedi. It is meant as a loose reference, picked as a personal choice, representing a deeper reference to simply "the hero" in every individual, as part of a larger story we all comprise. At the end of the day, do whatever you want to do with the terms and labels. Just don't let yourself be insecure about it in either manner.

Do we have less of a right to create and define non-fictional Jedi as George Lucas had to create and define fictional Jedi?

What does distancing ourselves from the fiction mean?

Good morning, from Japan, everyone

First off, I really have to say, Steam, that was bloody brilliant! You've put into words everything I (and I'm quite certain many others) would love to adroitly say, with all avalable pertinence. That just comletely rocked socks - well thought and said, Good Sir!

But yeah, on the topic of distancing ourselves and from what... it seems, in my very humble opinion, that we might just be using the wrong word here - we don't want to distance ourself from the *fiction*. The fiction represents Lucas' efforts to combine all (or at least many) of the Earth's philosophies, and to perhaps a somewhat vague extent, sense of theologies, into a single story in order to rekindle the spark of wonder and curiosity into such things in the youth (of all ages) of his audience (reference; his interview, found in the Temple curriculum). The source is actually from everywhere, once dissected. The beauty, before dissection, is in the presentation as a universal thing which, like the Force itself, can bind us all together.

So, not the *fiction* (which represents the multitude of, what many would deem, *realities* of our world's philosophies/theologies/cultures), but the *FANDOM*.

Star Wars serves as an excellent *parable* for our faith, yes? It needn't only be seen as something that drew us together under a one name for all, but can also be seen as the tool of teaching - not as though a bible per se, of course - but a parable, or set of parables, certainly.

So again, I say - it isn't the fiction, which serves us no real ill, but Good - it's the fandom that we should be distanced from.

After all, the fandom is no evil thing in and of itself, but it is the image of the cosplaying movie fan which is the bane of our striving to maintain any apparent validity to claim seriousness in our image as sincere and serious devotees to what we follow and represent.

So it would seem to me, that while we distance ourselves from the fandom, and ultimately, it's most extreme form, what here in Japan is known as "otaku", which merits shunning, the fiction, which was purposefully created to aid inspiration, is something which even merits embracing.

Tarran wrote: After all, the fandom is no evil thing in and of itself, but it is the image of the cosplaying movie fan which is the bane of our striving to maintain any apparent validity to claim seriousness in our image as sincere and serious devotees to what we follow and represent.

I would completely dissagree. People look at the fandom as fakes and people playing about with no real purpose. If you think this...then you really do not know or understand the heart of those who are "Fans"

Look at the 501st and the Rebel Legeon's - Both of which takes the "Fandom" of star wars the greatest of levels and have not only served the offline charitable community more than ANY of the online religious movements can stake claim to. But they have inspired millions to not be fearful of being who they are.

I am a Fan. I am a Role Player. I wear Costumes. And I want to construct my own lightsaber. All of these are who I am and I enjoy it very very much......Does it make me any less a Jedi? :dry:

Tarran wrote: After all, the fandom is no evil thing in and of itself, but it is the image of the cosplaying movie fan which is the bane of our striving to maintain any apparent validity to claim seriousness in our image as sincere and serious devotees to what we follow and represent.

True. That said, I also believe that there is a place for a Jedi to also be a member of that fandom--actively, complete with cheesy cosplay at movie premieres or conventions--provided that it be noted whenever possible that the two are
s e p a r a t e
aspects of that individual's lifestyle, and do not rely on each other to exist.

Kitsu Tails wrote: Look at the 501st and the Rebel Legeon's - Both of which takes the "Fandom" of star wars the greatest of levels and have not only served the offline charitable community more than ANY of the online religious movements can stake claim to. But they have inspired millions to not be fearful of being who they are.

I am a Fan. I am a Role Player. I wear Costumes. And I want to construct my own lightsaber. All of these are who I am and I enjoy it very very much......Does it make me any less a Jedi? :dry:

This exactly. There is too much charity work being done by "roleplayers" for them to be discounted out-of-hand, and they are super, super, stupidly visible. This combination of things means they are not inherently bad, and we shouldn't smear them. Some of us want to be considered distinct and distant from that, and that's fine, but if that's what we want we're going to have to step up our own game quite a bit to "compete" for Public Image Points with these groups that are doing ridiculously good deeds all over the place, or start directly supporting them or efforts like theirs on our own.

Also, I'm an intelligent, critical-thinking Jedi by the Order's definition.

But I also finally have Qui-Gon hair, and ain't nobody gonna tell me I can't put on some shabby beige robes or I'll get disowned.

edit :

Br. John wrote: Do we have less of a right to create and define non-fictional Jedi as George Lucas had to create and define fictional Jedi?

Yes. That's exactly what it means, because that word is a legally protected trademark of the Walt Disney Corporation, and therefore, as such, any discussion of Jedi in any context, fictional or not, that falls under the purview of that trademark is directly out of our hands. This includes spiritual training and teaching, which are a huge part of the fictional Jedi Order in-universe, unless the trademark documentation specifically says otherwise.

steamboat28 wrote:

Edan wrote: I thought it was quite a thoughtful discussion, although the constant quoting from the films shows there is a long way to go before we will be considered a religion separated from the fiction..

I've said this pretty often before, but I don't think we ever will be. Not unless we change our name. And that's not a bad thing at all, honestly.

Agreed. I'm studying to become an independent diplomat (by that I mean I don't intend to represent a specific country) and I get the feeling that were I to try and introduce myself to some delegates (someday) as a Jedi that nothing I said after that would be taken seriously. I think as long as we're called Jedi people will associate us with the fiction.

That's not to say I'd want to be completely divorced from the fiction. It has its benefits.

Here's a wacky thought: instead of bemoaning the fact that we're Jedi who won't be taken seriously because we're Jedi, why don't we wear the title as a namebadge while doing things that will make people take Jedi seriously?

I mean, I know it's a little out in left field, but...

steamboat28 wrote: Here's a wacky thought: instead of bemoaning the fact that we're Jedi who won't be taken seriously because we're Jedi, why don't we wear the title as a namebadge while doing things that will make people take Jedi seriously?

I mean, I know it's a little out in left field, but...

I have three different Jedi pendants, all three of which strike conversation and I have never once been looked at cross eyed when i tell them that I live Jedi as a lifestyle. Most folks find the idea quite enlightening.

steamboat28 wrote:
This exactly. There is too much charity work being done by "roleplayers" for them to be discounted out-of-hand, and they are super, super, stupidly visible. This combination of things means they are not inherently bad, and we shouldn't smear them. Some of us want to be considered distinct and distant from that, and that's fine, but if that's what we want we're going to have to step up our own game quite a bit to "compete" for Public Image Points with these groups that are doing ridiculously good deeds all over the place, or start directly supporting them or efforts like theirs on our own.

Also, I'm an intelligent, critical-thinking Jedi by the Order's definition.

But I also finally have Qui-Gon hair, and ain't nobody gonna tell me I can't put on some shabby beige robes or I'll get disowned.

I quite agree... I apologize for seeming one-sided in my post, but I was merely trying to hammer a point down. This isn't to say that I look down upon cosplayers. I've been known to do such (cosplaying), myself. But we can't escape the fact that many people DO look down upon cosplayers, at least *relatively* in relation to say, a serious matter such as a legitimate faith.

Due to this, I wouldn't personally, myself, shun *cosplyers* or *cosplaying*... but rather the mixing of that image with that of striving to achieve/maintain validity in the eyes of scrutinous onlookers who might jump at the chance to deny us any seriousness - or at worst, ultimately, persecute us.

I've certainly cosplayed, myself - and for things far less serious... I've been Ranma Saotome from the anime "Ranma 1/2", and Maxfield Stanton/Nephrite from "Bisshoujou Senshi Sailor Moon"...

But let's say I was to play a fictional Jedi at a Sci-Fi convention... and I just might... during such a time, I personally would NOT bear the insignia of the Temple. If anyone recognized me, and said, "I know you, you're one of the real Jedi" - I would then say, "Not right now, no - I'm having fun pretending I'm a fictional character".

What I mean about distancing from fandom is that, if I were to say, be interviewed about what a Real Jedi is, I don't think certain articles of clothing would be *extremely* inappropriate (within reason), but I wouldn't for example, say, have a drainpipe/flashlight/makeshift "light saber" hanging from my belt. Such might not be against the grain of a person in this forum, or it might - but to an onlooker who is seeing me in a serious interview being questioned about my faith, with an eye towards scrutinizing for validity or signs of ridiculousness, because they scan for whether or not something should be taken seriously, then nothing would scream the word WANNABE much louder than that *thing* hanging from my belt.

I suppose it's all about time and place - a time and a place for everything, and discretion being the better part of valour.

We have the duty of representing - we should represent with care. Not isanely and to a fault, no - but certainly also not with reckless abandon

IMHO

Tarran wrote:

steamboat28 wrote:
This exactly. There is too much charity work being done by "roleplayers" for them to be discounted out-of-hand, and they are super, super, stupidly visible. This combination of things means they are not inherently bad, and we shouldn't smear them. Some of us want to be considered distinct and distant from that, and that's fine, but if that's what we want we're going to have to step up our own game quite a bit to "compete" for Public Image Points with these groups that are doing ridiculously good deeds all over the place, or start directly supporting them or efforts like theirs on our own.

Also, I'm an intelligent, critical-thinking Jedi by the Order's definition.

But I also finally have Qui-Gon hair, and ain't nobody gonna tell me I can't put on some shabby beige robes or I'll get disowned.

I quite agree... I apologize for seeming one-sided in my post, but I was merely trying to hammer a point down. This isn't to say that I look down upon cosplayers. I've been known to do such (cosplaying), myself. But we can't escape the fact that many people DO look down upon cosplayers, at least *relatively* in relation to say, a serious matter such as a legitimate faith.

Due to this, I wouldn't personally, myself, shun *cosplyers* or *cosplaying*... but rather the mixing of that image with that of striving to achieve/maintain validity in the eyes of scrutinous onlookers who might jump at the chance to deny us any seriousness - or at worst, ultimately, persecute us.

I've certainly cosplayed, myself - and for things far less serious... I've been Ranma Saotome from the anime "Ranma 1/2", and Maxfield Stanton/Nephrite from "Bisshoujou Senshi Sailor Moon"...

But let's say I was to play a fictional Jedi at a Sci-Fi convention... and I just might... during such a time, I personally would NOT bear the insignia of the Temple. If anyone recognized me, and said, "I know you, you're one of the real Jedi" - I would then say, "Not right now, no - I'm having fun pretending I'm a fictional character".

What I mean about distancing from fandom is that, if I were to say, be interviewed about what a Real Jedi is, I don't think certain articles of clothing would be *extremely* inappropriate (within reason), but I wouldn't for example, say, have a drainpipe/flashlight/makeshift "light saber" hanging from my belt. Such might not be against the grain of a person in this forum, or it might - but to an onlooker who is seeing me in a serious interview being questioned about my faith, with an eye towards scrutinizing for validity or signs of ridiculousness, because they scan for whether or not something should be taken seriously, then nothing would scream the word WANNABE much louder than that *thing* hanging from my belt.

I suppose it's all about time and place - a time and a place for everything, and discretion being the better part of valour.

We have the duty of representing - we should represent with care. Not isanely and to a fault, no - but certainly also not with reckless abandon

IMHO

And why not? The Jedi Gathering Movement has been wearing Jedi Robes and practicing with toy lightsabers since 2004 and we just got finished hosting Filmmake/Director Laurent Malquaris doing a full length documentary on the Jedi Religion and various members within and I can personally guarantee that we were quite real and convincing complete with our Robes and Knighting Ceremonies. http://gatheredforcecommunity.com/index.php/about-us/jedi-documentary

People have this misconception that we will be judged if we proclaim to be real while dressing up in "Costume" But I can personally state that, that is not the case. Perhaps we should learn to conquer our fears and give the world a little more credit Lets face it...The new age movement has even more wierdo freaks out there than brown robed, lightsaber totting real religious Jedi


Edit: To add a link to pictures of the 2014 gathering and our various Jedi Robe displays - http://gatheredforcecommunity.com/index.php/gatheredcommunity/member-holocron-s/photo-album/album?albumid=14&groupid=4

steamboat28 wrote: Here's a wacky thought: instead of bemoaning the fact that we're Jedi who won't be taken seriously because we're Jedi, why don't we wear the title as a namebadge while doing things that will make people take Jedi seriously?

I mean, I know it's a little out in left field, but...

Again, brilliant - I've pondered this same idea when I saw someone on a Facebook page mention making a movie about real Jedi, and the cover image was completely cosplay-con plastered. The person himself, though probably possessing among the largest of well-meaning hearts, was not too far off, himself - jeans and a sort of Jedi T-shirt of sorts, and what seemed to be a light-saber hanging from his belt... I think he had some sort of radio show... which I think was mentioned on his Jedi T-shirt - I'm wildly ignorant of much beyond this, about him and his group, may the Force be with all those good people...

- But I say this because it occurred to me, if I was doing serious work somewhere, sometime, throughout my life, and say, had a small pin upon my chest, or sleeve, or collar - and insignia of the Temple here - and that was the only thing signifiying *anything* on my person beyond my every day garb, and someone inquired as to what it was, then I could actually see a serious, informative and respectable conversation come out of it that would instill good things in the mind of the inquirer, perhaps inspiring further questions later on.

Br. John wrote:

Do we have less of a right to create and define non-fictional Jedi as George Lucas had to create and define fictional Jedi?

steamboat28 wrote:

Yes. That's exactly what it means, because that word is a legally protected trademark of the Walt Disney Corporation, and therefore, as such, any discussion of Jedi in any context, fictional or not, that falls under the purview of that trademark is directly out of our hands. This includes spiritual training and teaching, which are a huge part of the fictional Jedi Order in-universe, unless the trademark documentation specifically says otherwise.

Trademarks are granted for specific purposes and uses. Unless that purpose is specified it's not covered. Nobody has a registered trademark or service-mark for the word Jedi used for non-fictional philosophical, religious, spiritual or way of life purposes. The Order is not infringing on anyone's trademark and neither is Jax or Opie or Hannigan etc. It does not apply to non-fictional Jedi.

LOVE, JOHN SMITH and YOU'RE FIRED are registered in the trademark office too.

Tarran wrote: I saw someone on a Facebook page mention making a movie about real Jedi, and the cover image was completely cosplay-con plastered. The person himself, though probably possessing among the largest of well-meaning hearts, was not too far off, himself - jeans and a sort of Jedi T-shirt of sorts, and what seemed to be a light-saber hanging from his belt... I think he had some sort of radio show... which I think was mentioned on his Jedi T-shirt - I'm wildly ignorant of much beyond this, about him and his group, may the Force be with all those good people...

haha :laugh: The person you describe was Hannigan

steamboat28 wrote: Here's a wacky thought: instead of bemoaning the fact that we're Jedi who won't be taken seriously because we're Jedi, why don't we wear the title as a namebadge while doing things that will make people take Jedi seriously?

I mean, I know it's a little out in left field, but...

That's basically what I was advocating on another thread. It's gonna take time though. No matter what we do people will still see us as as roleplayers for probably the next 100 years or so. There's no quick fix for that.

Kitsu Tails wrote:
And why not? The Jedi Gathering Movement has been wearing Jedi Robes and practicing with toy lightsabers since 2004 and we just got finished hosting Filmmake/Director Laurent Malquaris doing a full length documentary on the Jedi Religion and various members within and I can personally guarantee that we were quite real and convincing complete with our Robes and Knighting Ceremonies. http://gatheredforcecommunity.com/index.php/about-us/jedi-documentary

People have this misconception that we will be judged if we proclaim to be real while dressing up in "Costume" But I can personally state that, that is not the case. Perhaps we should learn to conquer our fears and give the world a little more credit Lets face it...The new age movement has even more wierdo freaks out there than brown robed, lightsaber totting real religious Jedi


Edit: To add a link to pictures of the 2014 gathering and our various Jedi Robe displays - http://gatheredforcecommunity.com/index.php/gatheredcommunity/member-holocron-s/photo-album/album?albumid=14&groupid=4

DUDE!! AWESOME!!

Nah, again, my posts seem one-sided... the thing is, I'm not "afraid" of "weirdos and freaks" (hey, I resemble that remark! lol)... but we cannot ignore that a LOT of people who are in positions of power to grant us any merit in society *ARE*... and while I'd not willfully bend to someone's ignorance, if I see a way to circumvent it, then I'd rather, than to try to brute-force cosplay my way into changing their minds - it's just not going to happen.

Again, as far as THOSE abovementioned people in society are concerned, it isn't cosplaying that needs to be shunned per se - but it is the image in the minds of those people that we need to focus on, in how we prepresent who we are. It's all about appropriate time and place. If I'm gonna cosplay, I'm gonna cosplay - if I were to make a video (or whatever, and to whatever extent), then the focal lens has been fine-tuned to a point... and I need to portray the image clearly, if through *me*, I were to take it upon myself to stand out and represent *many* (holy crap, God forbid ahahahaha)... so I'd need to be careful of how I would represent the faith. I would take *some degree* of care. It wouldn't be "my moment to shine" and display my "Jedi bling"... I need to portray with my *personality*, the fruits of our tenets and code and ethics etc. - not by any showy display, but by example.

If THAT were the stated, very finite case.

If I'm at a convention, and I got a damned-cool lightsaber in hand, I'mma go duel lol



BTW, that first pic on that link, in the upper left... that brown robe is damned cool

Tarran wrote: DUDE!! AWESOME!!

Aye!! It is! :laugh:

Nah, again, my posts seem one-sided... the thing is, I'm not "afraid" of "weirdos and freaks" (hey, I resemble that remark! lol)... but we cannot ignore that a LOT of people who are in positions of power to grant us any merit in society *ARE*... and while I'd not willfully bend to someone's ignorance, if I see a way to circumvent it, then I'd rather, than to try to brute-force cosplay my way into changing their minds - it's just not going to hapen.

I actually talk about this in one of my manuals. Its a matter of knowing your time and place. You don't go to church in your work clothes do you? When you are in the military you wear your military gear and dress to code. When you are at casual meetings you dress to match the occassion.

In the documentry the Film-make has recorded us in a couple different senarios. At my house I wore normal every day clothes that were decent enough to accept a new and honored guest into my home. We were normal people living normal lives but with obvious "Fandom" flares like my Workdesk covered in star wars and my little pony paraphanilla.

At the gathering itself I ran around in a pants and a tank top. It was hot and I had to dress down and be comfortable while running around running my Gathering for every ones enjoyment. And at the ceremony... I dawned my robes which were half done, obviously crappy and not at all complete. But it was a Knighting Ceremony and we all dressed the part for the occasion.

BTW, that first pic on that link, in the upper left... that brown robe is damned cool

I THINK that would Hannigan. He borrowed the robe.....Not sure where it was made. But yes! We get some creative robe displays at gatherings

Kitsu Tails wrote: I actually talk about this in one of my manuals. Its a matter of knowing your time and place. You don't go to church in your work clothes do you? When you are in the military you wear your military gear and dress to code. When you are at casual meetings you dress to match the occassion.

Precisely! Yes!

Like, if someone were needed to appear in court, say, to defend someone - and if the defender were Jedi - wearing robes in that context is just... *blatantly* uncool... I mean, yeah, I remember the bit about someone in a jury seat wearing her Starfleet Uniform - but that was unrelated (not a real faith, and selfishly making it all about *her*), though many things could be said on both sides.

But whereas we are instruments of peace, causing a disturbance - especially in the above-mentioned court setting example, would even be counter to our teachings.

But yeah, time and place - THANKS!!