BBC News - "Have Jedis created a new religion?"

steamboat28 wrote: Here's a wacky thought: instead of bemoaning the fact that we're Jedi who won't be taken seriously because we're Jedi, why don't we wear the title as a namebadge while doing things that will make people take Jedi seriously?

I mean, I know it's a little out in left field, but...

I have three different Jedi pendants, all three of which strike conversation and I have never once been looked at cross eyed when i tell them that I live Jedi as a lifestyle. Most folks find the idea quite enlightening.

steamboat28 wrote:
This exactly. There is too much charity work being done by "roleplayers" for them to be discounted out-of-hand, and they are super, super, stupidly visible. This combination of things means they are not inherently bad, and we shouldn't smear them. Some of us want to be considered distinct and distant from that, and that's fine, but if that's what we want we're going to have to step up our own game quite a bit to "compete" for Public Image Points with these groups that are doing ridiculously good deeds all over the place, or start directly supporting them or efforts like theirs on our own.

Also, I'm an intelligent, critical-thinking Jedi by the Order's definition.

But I also finally have Qui-Gon hair, and ain't nobody gonna tell me I can't put on some shabby beige robes or I'll get disowned.

I quite agree... I apologize for seeming one-sided in my post, but I was merely trying to hammer a point down. This isn't to say that I look down upon cosplayers. I've been known to do such (cosplaying), myself. But we can't escape the fact that many people DO look down upon cosplayers, at least *relatively* in relation to say, a serious matter such as a legitimate faith.

Due to this, I wouldn't personally, myself, shun *cosplyers* or *cosplaying*... but rather the mixing of that image with that of striving to achieve/maintain validity in the eyes of scrutinous onlookers who might jump at the chance to deny us any seriousness - or at worst, ultimately, persecute us.

I've certainly cosplayed, myself - and for things far less serious... I've been Ranma Saotome from the anime "Ranma 1/2", and Maxfield Stanton/Nephrite from "Bisshoujou Senshi Sailor Moon"...

But let's say I was to play a fictional Jedi at a Sci-Fi convention... and I just might... during such a time, I personally would NOT bear the insignia of the Temple. If anyone recognized me, and said, "I know you, you're one of the real Jedi" - I would then say, "Not right now, no - I'm having fun pretending I'm a fictional character".

What I mean about distancing from fandom is that, if I were to say, be interviewed about what a Real Jedi is, I don't think certain articles of clothing would be *extremely* inappropriate (within reason), but I wouldn't for example, say, have a drainpipe/flashlight/makeshift "light saber" hanging from my belt. Such might not be against the grain of a person in this forum, or it might - but to an onlooker who is seeing me in a serious interview being questioned about my faith, with an eye towards scrutinizing for validity or signs of ridiculousness, because they scan for whether or not something should be taken seriously, then nothing would scream the word WANNABE much louder than that *thing* hanging from my belt.

I suppose it's all about time and place - a time and a place for everything, and discretion being the better part of valour.

We have the duty of representing - we should represent with care. Not isanely and to a fault, no - but certainly also not with reckless abandon

IMHO

Tarran wrote:

steamboat28 wrote:
This exactly. There is too much charity work being done by "roleplayers" for them to be discounted out-of-hand, and they are super, super, stupidly visible. This combination of things means they are not inherently bad, and we shouldn't smear them. Some of us want to be considered distinct and distant from that, and that's fine, but if that's what we want we're going to have to step up our own game quite a bit to "compete" for Public Image Points with these groups that are doing ridiculously good deeds all over the place, or start directly supporting them or efforts like theirs on our own.

Also, I'm an intelligent, critical-thinking Jedi by the Order's definition.

But I also finally have Qui-Gon hair, and ain't nobody gonna tell me I can't put on some shabby beige robes or I'll get disowned.

I quite agree... I apologize for seeming one-sided in my post, but I was merely trying to hammer a point down. This isn't to say that I look down upon cosplayers. I've been known to do such (cosplaying), myself. But we can't escape the fact that many people DO look down upon cosplayers, at least *relatively* in relation to say, a serious matter such as a legitimate faith.

Due to this, I wouldn't personally, myself, shun *cosplyers* or *cosplaying*... but rather the mixing of that image with that of striving to achieve/maintain validity in the eyes of scrutinous onlookers who might jump at the chance to deny us any seriousness - or at worst, ultimately, persecute us.

I've certainly cosplayed, myself - and for things far less serious... I've been Ranma Saotome from the anime "Ranma 1/2", and Maxfield Stanton/Nephrite from "Bisshoujou Senshi Sailor Moon"...

But let's say I was to play a fictional Jedi at a Sci-Fi convention... and I just might... during such a time, I personally would NOT bear the insignia of the Temple. If anyone recognized me, and said, "I know you, you're one of the real Jedi" - I would then say, "Not right now, no - I'm having fun pretending I'm a fictional character".

What I mean about distancing from fandom is that, if I were to say, be interviewed about what a Real Jedi is, I don't think certain articles of clothing would be *extremely* inappropriate (within reason), but I wouldn't for example, say, have a drainpipe/flashlight/makeshift "light saber" hanging from my belt. Such might not be against the grain of a person in this forum, or it might - but to an onlooker who is seeing me in a serious interview being questioned about my faith, with an eye towards scrutinizing for validity or signs of ridiculousness, because they scan for whether or not something should be taken seriously, then nothing would scream the word WANNABE much louder than that *thing* hanging from my belt.

I suppose it's all about time and place - a time and a place for everything, and discretion being the better part of valour.

We have the duty of representing - we should represent with care. Not isanely and to a fault, no - but certainly also not with reckless abandon

IMHO

And why not? The Jedi Gathering Movement has been wearing Jedi Robes and practicing with toy lightsabers since 2004 and we just got finished hosting Filmmake/Director Laurent Malquaris doing a full length documentary on the Jedi Religion and various members within and I can personally guarantee that we were quite real and convincing complete with our Robes and Knighting Ceremonies. http://gatheredforcecommunity.com/index.php/about-us/jedi-documentary

People have this misconception that we will be judged if we proclaim to be real while dressing up in "Costume" But I can personally state that, that is not the case. Perhaps we should learn to conquer our fears and give the world a little more credit Lets face it...The new age movement has even more wierdo freaks out there than brown robed, lightsaber totting real religious Jedi


Edit: To add a link to pictures of the 2014 gathering and our various Jedi Robe displays - http://gatheredforcecommunity.com/index.php/gatheredcommunity/member-holocron-s/photo-album/album?albumid=14&groupid=4

steamboat28 wrote: Here's a wacky thought: instead of bemoaning the fact that we're Jedi who won't be taken seriously because we're Jedi, why don't we wear the title as a namebadge while doing things that will make people take Jedi seriously?

I mean, I know it's a little out in left field, but...

Again, brilliant - I've pondered this same idea when I saw someone on a Facebook page mention making a movie about real Jedi, and the cover image was completely cosplay-con plastered. The person himself, though probably possessing among the largest of well-meaning hearts, was not too far off, himself - jeans and a sort of Jedi T-shirt of sorts, and what seemed to be a light-saber hanging from his belt... I think he had some sort of radio show... which I think was mentioned on his Jedi T-shirt - I'm wildly ignorant of much beyond this, about him and his group, may the Force be with all those good people...

- But I say this because it occurred to me, if I was doing serious work somewhere, sometime, throughout my life, and say, had a small pin upon my chest, or sleeve, or collar - and insignia of the Temple here - and that was the only thing signifiying *anything* on my person beyond my every day garb, and someone inquired as to what it was, then I could actually see a serious, informative and respectable conversation come out of it that would instill good things in the mind of the inquirer, perhaps inspiring further questions later on.

Br. John wrote:

Do we have less of a right to create and define non-fictional Jedi as George Lucas had to create and define fictional Jedi?

steamboat28 wrote:

Yes. That's exactly what it means, because that word is a legally protected trademark of the Walt Disney Corporation, and therefore, as such, any discussion of Jedi in any context, fictional or not, that falls under the purview of that trademark is directly out of our hands. This includes spiritual training and teaching, which are a huge part of the fictional Jedi Order in-universe, unless the trademark documentation specifically says otherwise.

Trademarks are granted for specific purposes and uses. Unless that purpose is specified it's not covered. Nobody has a registered trademark or service-mark for the word Jedi used for non-fictional philosophical, religious, spiritual or way of life purposes. The Order is not infringing on anyone's trademark and neither is Jax or Opie or Hannigan etc. It does not apply to non-fictional Jedi.

LOVE, JOHN SMITH and YOU'RE FIRED are registered in the trademark office too.

Tarran wrote: I saw someone on a Facebook page mention making a movie about real Jedi, and the cover image was completely cosplay-con plastered. The person himself, though probably possessing among the largest of well-meaning hearts, was not too far off, himself - jeans and a sort of Jedi T-shirt of sorts, and what seemed to be a light-saber hanging from his belt... I think he had some sort of radio show... which I think was mentioned on his Jedi T-shirt - I'm wildly ignorant of much beyond this, about him and his group, may the Force be with all those good people...

haha :laugh: The person you describe was Hannigan

steamboat28 wrote: Here's a wacky thought: instead of bemoaning the fact that we're Jedi who won't be taken seriously because we're Jedi, why don't we wear the title as a namebadge while doing things that will make people take Jedi seriously?

I mean, I know it's a little out in left field, but...

That's basically what I was advocating on another thread. It's gonna take time though. No matter what we do people will still see us as as roleplayers for probably the next 100 years or so. There's no quick fix for that.

Kitsu Tails wrote:
And why not? The Jedi Gathering Movement has been wearing Jedi Robes and practicing with toy lightsabers since 2004 and we just got finished hosting Filmmake/Director Laurent Malquaris doing a full length documentary on the Jedi Religion and various members within and I can personally guarantee that we were quite real and convincing complete with our Robes and Knighting Ceremonies. http://gatheredforcecommunity.com/index.php/about-us/jedi-documentary

People have this misconception that we will be judged if we proclaim to be real while dressing up in "Costume" But I can personally state that, that is not the case. Perhaps we should learn to conquer our fears and give the world a little more credit Lets face it...The new age movement has even more wierdo freaks out there than brown robed, lightsaber totting real religious Jedi


Edit: To add a link to pictures of the 2014 gathering and our various Jedi Robe displays - http://gatheredforcecommunity.com/index.php/gatheredcommunity/member-holocron-s/photo-album/album?albumid=14&groupid=4

DUDE!! AWESOME!!

Nah, again, my posts seem one-sided... the thing is, I'm not "afraid" of "weirdos and freaks" (hey, I resemble that remark! lol)... but we cannot ignore that a LOT of people who are in positions of power to grant us any merit in society *ARE*... and while I'd not willfully bend to someone's ignorance, if I see a way to circumvent it, then I'd rather, than to try to brute-force cosplay my way into changing their minds - it's just not going to happen.

Again, as far as THOSE abovementioned people in society are concerned, it isn't cosplaying that needs to be shunned per se - but it is the image in the minds of those people that we need to focus on, in how we prepresent who we are. It's all about appropriate time and place. If I'm gonna cosplay, I'm gonna cosplay - if I were to make a video (or whatever, and to whatever extent), then the focal lens has been fine-tuned to a point... and I need to portray the image clearly, if through *me*, I were to take it upon myself to stand out and represent *many* (holy crap, God forbid ahahahaha)... so I'd need to be careful of how I would represent the faith. I would take *some degree* of care. It wouldn't be "my moment to shine" and display my "Jedi bling"... I need to portray with my *personality*, the fruits of our tenets and code and ethics etc. - not by any showy display, but by example.

If THAT were the stated, very finite case.

If I'm at a convention, and I got a damned-cool lightsaber in hand, I'mma go duel lol



BTW, that first pic on that link, in the upper left... that brown robe is damned cool

Tarran wrote: DUDE!! AWESOME!!

Aye!! It is! :laugh:

Nah, again, my posts seem one-sided... the thing is, I'm not "afraid" of "weirdos and freaks" (hey, I resemble that remark! lol)... but we cannot ignore that a LOT of people who are in positions of power to grant us any merit in society *ARE*... and while I'd not willfully bend to someone's ignorance, if I see a way to circumvent it, then I'd rather, than to try to brute-force cosplay my way into changing their minds - it's just not going to hapen.

I actually talk about this in one of my manuals. Its a matter of knowing your time and place. You don't go to church in your work clothes do you? When you are in the military you wear your military gear and dress to code. When you are at casual meetings you dress to match the occassion.

In the documentry the Film-make has recorded us in a couple different senarios. At my house I wore normal every day clothes that were decent enough to accept a new and honored guest into my home. We were normal people living normal lives but with obvious "Fandom" flares like my Workdesk covered in star wars and my little pony paraphanilla.

At the gathering itself I ran around in a pants and a tank top. It was hot and I had to dress down and be comfortable while running around running my Gathering for every ones enjoyment. And at the ceremony... I dawned my robes which were half done, obviously crappy and not at all complete. But it was a Knighting Ceremony and we all dressed the part for the occasion.

BTW, that first pic on that link, in the upper left... that brown robe is damned cool

I THINK that would Hannigan. He borrowed the robe.....Not sure where it was made. But yes! We get some creative robe displays at gatherings

Kitsu Tails wrote: I actually talk about this in one of my manuals. Its a matter of knowing your time and place. You don't go to church in your work clothes do you? When you are in the military you wear your military gear and dress to code. When you are at casual meetings you dress to match the occassion.

Precisely! Yes!

Like, if someone were needed to appear in court, say, to defend someone - and if the defender were Jedi - wearing robes in that context is just... *blatantly* uncool... I mean, yeah, I remember the bit about someone in a jury seat wearing her Starfleet Uniform - but that was unrelated (not a real faith, and selfishly making it all about *her*), though many things could be said on both sides.

But whereas we are instruments of peace, causing a disturbance - especially in the above-mentioned court setting example, would even be counter to our teachings.

But yeah, time and place - THANKS!!

Tarran wrote: Like, if someone were needed to appear in court, say, to defend someone - and if the defender were Jedi - wearing robes in that context is just... *blatantly* uncool... I mean, yeah, I remember the bit about someone in a jury seat wearing her Starfleet Uniform - but that was unrelated (not a real faith, and selfishly making it all about *her*), though many things could be said on both sides.

Even in Fiction Jedi saught to blend in with their environment. Not stand out. In fiction Jedi Robes were quite similar to traveler clothes so in that setting it suited their purpose to blend in.

Here in modern times a suite and Tie is much more appropriate.

Does not mean we need to separate from fiction Just need to learn proper Moderation and Application of our practices.

Good point!

And yep, like I mentioned, the fiction should be ambraced... like as a learning/teaching resource (like parables) for our faith, for instance There's a lot of treasurable gems within it, I think - beyond that, keeping in mind the statements on the home page is mostly what's important

Apparently, the article caught the attention of Sifu Kisu (martial arts consultant for Avatar: the Last Airbender) as well, so I started a bit of conversation .

"I have shoes older than that….."

Haha! That's great :laugh:

I really need to finish my history article concerning Jedi. I got quite a bit of history lore on it....but there is so much of it and so little of the past founders willing to help.

Kitsu Tails wrote:

ren wrote: It certainly is a great improvement compared to what they normally publish.

hehe you mean like this one?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1204829.stm

Yes. But also everything else they publish though at least BBC bias is reasonably predictable. It's bad journalism, not private lobby propaganda.

Kitsu Tails wrote:

Tarran wrote: After all, the fandom is no evil thing in and of itself, but it is the image of the cosplaying movie fan which is the bane of our striving to maintain any apparent validity to claim seriousness in our image as sincere and serious devotees to what we follow and represent.

I would completely dissagree. People look at the fandom as fakes and people playing about with no real purpose. If you think this...then you really do not know or understand the heart of those who are "Fans"

Look at the 501st and the Rebel Legeon's - Both of which takes the "Fandom" of star wars the greatest of levels and have not only served the offline charitable community more than ANY of the online religious movements can stake claim to. But they have inspired millions to not be fearful of being who they are.

I am a Fan. I am a Role Player. I wear Costumes. And I want to construct my own lightsaber. All of these are who I am and I enjoy it very very much......Does it make me any less a Jedi? :dry:

I wonder if christian priests who are fans of star wars go to church wearing their cutom-built vader suit?
There is a time and place for things, and cosplayers can go to cosplay events, even as you point out organize large charity events. The 501st's target market are kids. I never went through religious education as a child, however my understanding is that people who did thought it sucked. As such I wouldn't send a Jediist to talk to teach a kid dying from leukemia about the Force, what I'd do (and actually did on this very day), is give them something to cheer them up (in my case a massive "frozen"-inspired cake)

ren wrote: what I'd do (and actually did on this very day), is give them something to cheer them up (in my case a massive "frozen"-inspired cake)

Yum! *Drools*

ren wrote:

Kitsu Tails wrote:

ren wrote: It certainly is a great improvement compared to what they normally publish.

hehe you mean like this one?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1204829.stm

Yes. But also everything else they publish though at least BBC bias is reasonably predictable. It's bad journalism, not private lobby propaganda.

Kitsu Tails wrote:

Tarran wrote: After all, the fandom is no evil thing in and of itself, but it is the image of the cosplaying movie fan which is the bane of our striving to maintain any apparent validity to claim seriousness in our image as sincere and serious devotees to what we follow and represent.

I would completely dissagree. People look at the fandom as fakes and people playing about with no real purpose. If you think this...then you really do not know or understand the heart of those who are "Fans"

Look at the 501st and the Rebel Legeon's - Both of which takes the "Fandom" of star wars the greatest of levels and have not only served the offline charitable community more than ANY of the online religious movements can stake claim to. But they have inspired millions to not be fearful of being who they are.

I am a Fan. I am a Role Player. I wear Costumes. And I want to construct my own lightsaber. All of these are who I am and I enjoy it very very much......Does it make me any less a Jedi? :dry:

I wonder if christian priests who are fans of star wars go to church wearing their cutom-built vader suit?
There is a time and place for things, and cosplayers can go to cosplay events, even as you point out organize large charity events. The 501st's target market are kids. I never went through religious education as a child, however my understanding is that people who did thought it sucked. As such I wouldn't send a Jediist to talk to teach a kid dying from leukemia about the Force, what I'd do (and actually did on this very day), is give them something to cheer them up (in my case a massive "frozen"-inspired cake)

And you didn't have to cosplay at all to do that I assume.

Look at the 501st and the Rebel Legeon's - Both of which takes the "Fandom" of star wars the greatest of levels and have not only served the offline charitable community more than ANY of the online religious movements can stake claim to. But they have inspired millions to not be fearful of being who they are.

That's all nice and everything but... I'm not sure if it should be put in a way that sounds like a competition of "who's got the most charity case points". Might come off a bit dividing toward the community maybe. After all, does anybody need to dress up in a costume to inspire someone to not be fearful of being who they are? And how do you know how many non-cosplaying Jedi have done the same kinds of things? For all we know, the 501st and Rebel Legion could be a trivial percentage of a whole who brings the same level of value, inspiration, and contribution to local communities.

Proteus wrote: That's all nice and everything but... I'm not sure if it should be put in a way that sounds like a competition of "who's got the most charity case points". Might come off a bit dividing toward the community maybe. After all, does anybody need to dress up in a costume to inspire someone to not be fearful of being who they are? And how do you know how many non-cosplaying Jedi have done the same kinds of things? For all we know, the 501st and Rebel Legion could be a trivial percentage of a whole who brings the same level of value, inspiration, and contribution to local communities..

I could (and often am) be mistaken, but I believe the tone behind those statements were that people flock to places where the 501st are because their cosplay makes them recognizable and "cool", and it's one of their best ways to spread information on the charities they work with.

In all honesty, I've seen the 501st (and one of their splinter groups, now independent) at work, and if I had to choose between giving my attention to those folks in cool costumes and our style of Jedi, even knowing what I know about how helpful and lovely we are, I'd go visit them. To me, that's proof that the costumes aren't the problem at all. I think it's our attitudes whilst wearing them.

Sorry for this, I don't normally double post, but I just feel the need to clarify my position slightly.

I don't think that "real Jedi" and "cosplay Jedi" needs to be a hard, black-and-white, line. I think there are plenty of opportunities for folks to be both, even in public, even at the same time. When you're visible in the way the 501st or the Rebel Legion or KAG or Starfleet or whoever are, you can get into a lot more interesting positions to help than you might otherwise. I've been asked to do things in costume or in certain outfits that I'd never have been asked into in street clothes. Perfect strangers made me a mascot yesterday because I chose to wear my clan tartan instead of my blue jeans, and in my priest's robes it's easier for people to feel safe enough to ask for help than if you're in a pair of bermuda shorts.

I just don't want to see us give up that chance because we have such a desire to be taken "seriously."

Proteus wrote: That's all nice and everything but... I'm not sure if it should be put in a way that sounds like a competition of "who's got the most charity case points". Might come off a bit dividing toward the community maybe. After all, does anybody need to dress up in a costume to inspire someone to not be fearful of being who they are? And how do you know how many non-cosplaying Jedi have done the same kinds of things? For all we know, the 501st and Rebel Legion could be a trivial percentage of a whole who brings the same level of value, inspiration, and contribution to local communities.

I think...You are thinking/looking into my words far too much.

I made my statment to make a point. And that point was a rather simple one.....Which was: Dressing up, Being Real, Fiction, Fact.....It all can Coexist with eachother without any scorn and disclaimers purposefully stating that "We are not one of them" Both Aspects has their time and place in the whole grand picture and should not be displaced because we want to be "Real"

You don't want to dress up? Cool. Thats fine....I wont judge you if you don't judge me. Its is simply called "Mutual Respect"

When I read the disclaimer I physically cringe because it makes me feel like I am not welcome because this temple finds my Fictional inspirations "Not Real Enough." It may not be what it means....But it is how it feels.