Jedi and Drugs

Calem wrote: Psilocybin enabled me to reach a state I've only seen described as Nirvana. Never have I been more in a moment than I was then.

I was doing some research recently into hallucinations and it made me wonder...

For those who believe that drug use has a spiritual purpose, or allows them to be more open to spiritual experiences, how are you supposed to know if that is whats actually happening, rather than being in a state of chemically induced delusion where your brain literally cannot tell the difference between fantasy and reality?

Khaos wrote: As an aside, in regards to the "Different paths, same destination" I never know how to take such a summation.

How do people reach this conclusion?

Certainly, we are all going somewhere, and if you mean death and the grave , then yes, the same destination.

Anything else and no, not eve afterlives line up in the same place for everyone.

As for the same direction? Well thats obviously not the case either.

Drugs will take you places that no one else will tread if they havent done them.

Not only within, but without.

This depends solely on how literal you perceive the statement to be. I am on a road of self-discovery with the goal of becoming the best person I can be and I imagine that most here share that goal. We may not have the same criteria for when that goal is reached but that doesn't make our goal different as such. If you and I set out to bake bread and I bake a rye bread and you bake a banana bread, has one of us reached our goal more than the other if both our goals were to make a bread? Our criteria would simply be different but neither of us would have met them "more" or "better" than the other. Our direction would be the same.
Imagine the ultimate self-realization as a room with countless doors, each door coming from a different path, idea, though or religion. Through spirituality that is where we're heading. It does not matter through which door we enter.
My path in life has involved drugs at some point and maybe it will again but other people's paths have not. None of us is more right than the other, we're simply travelling different paths.

Brenna wrote:

Calem wrote: Psilocybin enabled me to reach a state I've only seen described as Nirvana. Never have I been more in a moment than I was then.

I was doing some research recently into hallucinations and it made me wonder...

For those who believe that drug use has a spiritual purpose, or allows them to be more open to spiritual experiences, how are you supposed to know if that is whats actually happening, rather than being in a state of chemically induced delusion where your brain literally cannot tell the difference between fantasy and reality?

Every single experience in our minds, whether drug induced or not is the result of chemicals interacting. Neurotransmitters altering the electrical signals in the synapses.
As I've stated before, the kind of hallucinations you talk about here are extremely rare when using a drug like psilocybin or mescaline or other common psychedelic. The kind of delusion and level of hallucination you refer to are more common in severe psychosis than "trippin' balls", as the kids call it.
No matter the dosage (and there's been some whoppers!) I've never had the slightest problem distinguishing between reality and imagination, it was just easier to apply mental images to the real world. Kinda like Google Glasses or other technologies offering augmented reality.
I know that my experience of Nirvana was real beyond any doubt but only because I can see it in retrospect as time did not exist while it lasted. Not past nor future. I only realized what had transpired when I "came back", so to speak. It was awe-inspiring.
And I experienced. My mind behaved in that certain way for a certain period so I can guarantee you that it was just as real as anything you've ever experienced.

Brenna wrote:

Calem wrote: Psilocybin enabled me to reach a state I've only seen described as Nirvana. Never have I been more in a moment than I was then.

I was doing some research recently into hallucinations and it made me wonder...

For those who believe that drug use has a spiritual purpose, or allows them to be more open to spiritual experiences, how are you supposed to know if that is whats actually happening, rather than being in a state of chemically induced delusion where your brain literally cannot tell the difference between fantasy and reality?

Anymore than for those that are inducing it through...Fasting, sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation,meditation, or what have you?

Is it real? Not real?

Its all a chemically induced delusion.

Im not sure I get what you mean in regards to telling the difference between "real" and "fantasy"...Is then, the default state of a spiritual experience "Fantasy"?

Or is it only real if you alter your state through "natural" means?

The misnomer there, is that it is not your natural state, it is an altered state that has been induced, the trigger of what alters it is irrelevant in that regard.

You are seeking to change your normal perception of what is "real".

I may be misunderstanding your question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4f-GvR72RE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAXwDeFhhic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpoPBrE9mhI

steamboat28 wrote:

joseaplaza wrote: And it's a valid and legitimate choice. However, if you ask me, i don't think a Jedi should do drugs (not even alcohol), for quite a lot of reasons.

Just like (while it is a valid and legitimate choice) I don't think Jedi should be in the business of telling people how to live. Simply helping them find their own way to do it.

A Jedi should be like a doctor and a friend imo. Tells you smoking is no good for you but accepts that you smoke, also will tell you you're a dumbarse and maybe slap you a couple of times whenever you have the grand idea of jumping off a cliff when drunk.

Brenna wrote: I was doing some research recently into hallucinations and it made me wonder...

For those who believe that drug use has a spiritual purpose, or allows them to be more open to spiritual experiences, how are you supposed to know if that is whats actually happening, rather than being in a state of chemically induced delusion where your brain literally cannot tell the difference between fantasy and reality?

I'd say its about 90% changing the how of perception instead of the what, and 10% using the nature of the hallucination to derive some other nature of information - creativity, psychology, ESP!!! Lol, well maybe not that last one so much. It informs about ones capabilities IMO. The problem I have is they do have lasting effects, perhaps not noticeable for low usage but as usage increases the brain does learn and this then of course run's the risk of it being detrimental, to quote Hans Solo when he was a bladerunner "if its not a benefit its a hazard"!!

The Dalai Lama has an interesting view point on drug use.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vnQr2AqVpIU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vnQr2AqVpIU

And you can always look to fictional characters if you want for inspiration. I agree with Yoda, from the Star Wars series…

“A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away… to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph. Adventure. Heh. Excitement. Heh. A Jedi craves not these things.”
– Yoda

Sure, he’s not talking about drug use but for me, it fits.

In a world of illusions and self-deception why would anyone try to convince themselves and others that the chemically induced state of illusion and delusion gained them any benefit? :blink:

:silly: Seems that in regards to the world being full of deceptions and illusions, that they hardly need drugs, or an altered state to convince them they have gotten some gain or benefit from said illusions and perceptions.

In fact, most of the deluded people I know aren't doing drugs. Or claim not to be. Of course, you could consider religion a drug....

Still if it's all crap, then what's to be gained regardless?

You have any source just as pointless, including Yoda as quote, and its interesting, as Luke got exactly what he craved....Also Yoda, and Obi-Wan who were in fact describing Luke at the time.

Brenna wrote: For those who believe that drug use has a spiritual purpose, or allows them to be more open to spiritual experiences, how are you supposed to know if that is whats actually happening, rather than being in a state of chemically induced delusion where your brain literally cannot tell the difference between fantasy and reality?

The difference between illusion and insight is perspective.

As someone who only condones medical and spiritual drug use (with the obvious exception of the author's favorite indulgences in legal, social beverage-based drugs and his favorite churchwarden pipe), I feel like the difference in mindset of someone using drugs entheogenically and someone using drugs recreationally is quite likely to have a profound effect on the outcome. I've also read articles citing studies that people who grew up in shamanic cultures "handled their sh*t" better when introduced to heavy psychotropic substances than others did in trials, mostly because the cultural framework in which they were raised gave them context to some of the things they felt they were experiencing, while the modernized, Westernized subjects tended to have what are colloquially referred to as "bad trips", because they were parsing information in a way they were unaccustomed to having to consider.

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Wescli Wardest wrote: The Dalai Lama has an interesting view point on drug use...

Yes, but the natural power of the mind also includes the ability for things like self-deception, delusions, hallucinations, and the like. While I agree with HHTG that reliance on external forces for one's enlightenment is limiting, I don't for a second believe that internal sources are any safer, or any less likely to lead to distraction, destruction, or ruin.

And you can always look to fictional characters if you want for inspiration. I agree with Yoda, from the Star Wars series…

“A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away… to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph. Adventure. Heh. Excitement. Heh. A Jedi craves not these things.”
– Yoda

Sure, he’s not talking about drug use but for me, it fits.

In a world of illusions and self-deception why would anyone try to convince themselves and others that the chemically induced state of illusion and delusion gained them any benefit? :blink:

Because drug use, from what I understand, alters the perception of the now--allowing one to pay attention to where you are/what you are doing in a way your mind has not experienced before. Recreational drug use and entheogens are wholly different matters, because the purpose and the mindset--the very goals--are widely different.

So which are we talking about in this iteration of "Jedi & Drugs Theater"?

Wescli Wardest wrote: In a world of illusions and self-deception why would anyone try to convince themselves and others that the chemically induced state of illusion and delusion gained them any benefit? :blink:

How do you know? The arrogance involved in this statement is staggering because you haven't had the experiences I've had nor felt the changes I did.