Freemason Jedis

I did not see any rules about dead threads, or any rules for the forum in general except in the FAQ (please send me a link if I am wrong).

So, I thought I would resurrect this thread, as I am a hard atheist, which a few people in this thread, and more on this forum, appear to have never met before.

I do not believe in any form of supernatural higher power. I do not believe in ghosts, voodoo, tarot, remote viewing, witchcraft, psychics, or any other "woo", to borrow a term from James Randi.

I do however, have to argue that the masons are quite mistaken. I may not believe in any of these things, but my grandfather was a mason, and I would love to become one myself. But I am, hilariously enough, too honest for Masons to accept. I was told that if I just bent my personal beliefs a -tad- and called myself a deist, I could become a mason. But I will not, and cannot do that, because I do not believe in any higher power. Deists believe in a higher power, but don't think it cares about us one whit, or judges us at all... so really, I don't see how it's that much different from atheism where Masons are concerned.

After all, Masons feel that you need some sort of higher power to aspire to emulating, so that you'll want to become a better person. They feel there has to be something to enforce your oath, to enforce you being a good person.

That is a load of horse hockey, to steal a term from M*A*S*H. I do not sit here on my laurels and not try and become a better person. As a matter of fact, I work my ass off to learn as much as I can to evolve my own beliefs, to learn more about myself and the world around me at every turn. I am more than willing to say "I don't know", but I am not willing to say I believe in something that I do not. I am not built in such a way that I can believe in something for which there is no evidence.

I am a hard atheist, but I work hard at self improvement, and I do not need some supernatural power to enforce any kind of oath against me. I wish to improve myself simply because I want to be the best person I can, know the most I can, and provide the best life I can for myself and whoever I choose to share my life. I love and care for others just as much as anyone who believes in a higher power can, and I would argue that I am even more highly motivated to make an impact in the world and better myself than anyone who believes in a higher power to come bail them out.

If you believe in the power of prayer, or witchcraft, or anything else that is a supernatural fallback, something you can call on in times of stress or need that will help to bail you out, then you have something I do not have. If you believe that God or Gaia or the Force is looking out for others, than that can turn into a copout, and a reason for you not to go and help those people yourselves.

Through basic philosophy I can employ the golden rule and discover that because I want to live my life a certain way, and I can find satisfaction and happiness by being treated in a certain fashion, others might wish to be treated that way too. Through basic observational skills I can observe that as being true. And then, because there is -no one else- that is going to help bail those people out, no one else that is going to go to their rescue or aid, I act. I do my best to change the world around me precisely because I am the only one going to do it. Humans often fall victim to a psychological bias that makes us think that something else will take care of a problem. We only feel responsibility for something if we are the only people there who could prevent it. This is called the Bystander Effect. Sometimes people feel the same thing with religion. God can change it, so why should they bother? It must be part of the plan.

I do not bear the Masons any grudge or ill will. I love them, and the work they do in improving themselves. But when they cannot look past the ends of their own noses to see that it is, in fact, possible for someone to wish to improve themselves, to strive to be better, even without a god?
When they feel that I could not be trusted to hold an oath, simply because I do not believe in a god?

That stings. It stings like no other, because I know it is not true. There are hundreds of thousands of examples of pious individuals breaking oaths for a myriad of reasons. Believing in a higher power is not some magical fail safe.

So why not give me, or other atheists who are in the same boat, a shot?

Ty, are you looking for a helpful response to your questions? Or were your questions largely rhetorical, as you have already made up your mind about them and were primarily just venting at this point? (Which is ok, if you were. That can have its uses too.)

A lot of people ask questions that they don't really want to hear answers to. Their questions may be merely a vehicle to express their anger. Or they ask the wrong questions and then wonder why they never get any helpful answers toward what they really wanted to know.

If you were seeking constructive feedback, let me know.

The masons I asked didn't have an actual answer, so if you do actually know the answers, I would be more than happy to hear them.

It was, after all, a little of both. Heh.

I know people that are Masons. Some are just outstanding individuals and some have traits that are less than desirable in my book.

That being said, we are all just people. We are all fallible. And we all have our moments when we shine.

Even though I would love to discuss things with them, they have their oaths, reasons and beliefs. Just because I may not agree with them entirely does not justify any judgment one may make of them.

From what I understand of their beliefs, the importance of having one (a deity) that is higher than the individual is because of their belief in a grand design and their place to serve. If there were not an architect, who would you serve, be “accountable” to and gain a “divine” guidance from?
Jut my opinion from the details I have been able to gather.

Read Albert Pike's Morals and Dogma, read Manly P. Hall as well.

I am doing my best to refrain from this conversation...

See, I think I am considered a conspiracy theorist, so, I will do my best to not judge...

Questions for Free and Accepted Masons: (please forgive if answered already)

What is the acceptance about? What does it mean?

What is the difference of Free Mason, and Mason? If everyone is free??

Why be secret, what is the point? Cool, you got a gentleman's club, but to act like you got something to hide, tells me your hiding something, not any particular individual maybe, not speaking to the Masons here, like they have or know some agenda, but really, to conceal, forms an identity of mistrust, no?

I would like to see someone refute Manly P.Hall

Plus, the years of experience studying and research, my gut or faith says there is more going on behind the curtain of this gentleman's lodge...

In all fairness I have nothing against the Masons here, I hope this is realized.
Peace.

The reason freemasons require a belief in a higher power is because it serves as a basis for control through co-optation. If you go beyond the 3rd degree you find they believe in the great architect who is above all the other gods. This great architect is known as Horus:

From what I've gathered, they also hold in reverence the figure known as Lucifer, or "bringer of light", in that their vision is to illuminate the minds of men. Though this is possible, I can't substantiate this as most things in the fraternity are secretive in nature.

I have seen several things in this thread which sound an awful lot like people are buying into the suspicions, prejudices and rumor mongering that goes on far too often.

It seems that any time we don’t know what we think we are ‘entitle’ to know or are told everything we want, then we jump to popular conclusion.

And as far as secret goes, I have never had one refuse to talk to me and discuss things about themselves or their community.

I feel that for many, even if they invited you in and let you observe everything they do, you would still be convinced that it was all a conspiracy to keep the truth from you and that none of it was what was actually happening.

Also, by some of the posts in this thread I can tell that some people have never taken the time to actually find out what is going on. The internet conspiracy page is not a good place to get un bias opinions or facts.

I would suggest taking the time to actually talk to one, not question and accuse, and get to know them. Perhaps they will share with you.

Was just at a dinner last week with a mason.

He said two things. It is an organization that trains leaders and that they don't care what Higher Power you believe in . . just do so and participate in a community of shared belief. . . that is part of the mason training.

Perhaps the Lucifer thing was a stretch; no idea since I found it through a search about freemasonry. But, from my conversation with one, he said that their vision was to "illuminate the minds of men", which could be through leadership training or community involvement. I won't pretend to know any more than that because it would be dishonest, and conspiracy theories make me laugh. They do have web sites of their own to tell you what they're all about. One that isn't particular to any geographical location is here .

The Free Masons I have spoken to on other sites come across arrogant... Mind you I never met one in person... All I was doing was asking questions, never made any statement of claim they were evil, or anything...

To answer the original question: Masons swear on a holy text. For Jediists, our liturgical book would serve. In each lodge, it can differ depending on the religion of the members and the region.

As for the wonder of what we do, and the secrecy we hold..... This is for each mason to hold the secrets entrusted to themselves.

However, our lodges have been around for a very long time. There are many books detailing almost everything that goes on. Born in blood is a book the details the history. There are quite a few.

However, I will be happy to answer any questions I can without violating my own oaths here.

I apologize, I just do not find this information sufficient for an answer to my questions... I mean no disrespect out of my curiosity...

I would simply like to know why an atheist cannot be a mason. What about masonry makes that so terrible? I went into more detail with the question in my other post, but as yet, no one has answered it.

People have their rules for their reasons.

I gave my understanding of it once.

Wescli Wardest wrote: From what I understand of their beliefs, the importance of having one (a deity) that is higher than the individual is because of their belief in a grand design and their place to serve. If there were not an architect, who would you serve, be “accountable” to and gain a “divine” guidance from?
Jut my opinion from the details I have been able to gather.

I would like it if any Jedi belonging to the Masons could clarify but I am not going to push the issue.

Okay, I just went and talked to my friend that is a Mason. I posed the same question to him.
Answer…

Because the Oath would not mean anything if you do not believe in what you are swearing on.

And then he asked, “Why would someone want to join a fraternal group if they did not share the same beliefs as the group?” And we had an interesting conversation about it. He is a good guy and not only do I trust him, but I consider him a friend. So I believe his answers and think his question has merit.

Why do you want to join a group that you do not share a belief in the same things as? Is it because you want to break down some barrier?

How does a Free Mason keep an open mind, through the veil of secrecy.?
How can a Free Mason pledge an allegiance with Jedi?
Is there any contradiction between Free Masonry and Jediism? How does one follow the oaths of both?

While I can not say why there is no atheist lodge within the masons. Belief in something higher than yourself would make the most sense to me as to why there is a requirement. However, atheists, to my knowledge believe in things just like everyone else. It would make sense that it is possible to hold yourself to a higher power if it was recognized by yourself because in the end you are the one who is making a committment. A book of holy law, or any other symbol would work in my opinion. I have been a mason for on 5 years now and I have met with people from all walks of life. I think there was actually a petition to make an atheist lodge made to the Grand Lodge a little while back. I don't have the answer right here as I am responding on my phone.

llama. I take no offense to your questions. As I said before somethings you will have to go read and look up because of an oath I took. As a man of my word I can not tell you these 'secrets,' but as I said in my previous posts there are many, many, many places to find the information. I can tell you that in all my time as a mason, behind the doors of the lodge, no sinister intent was brought, no plot or ploy outside of community service and enriching my own life. As masons we seek to enrich our community by bettering ourselves and helping those around us.

Acceptance? Acceptance of what exactly?

Difference between mason and freemason... Well there isn't one. Like Paramedic and Medic they are two terms that describe the same thing.

Though I would pose a question to you all, what kind of illumination has been moving humanity forward for millenia? No I am not talking about photons from the sun.

How does a Free Mason keep an open mind, through the veil of secrecy?
Um... like everyone else. Everyone has secrets, my fellowship only gives me additions reasons to assist people. It has never stopped me from doing what I believe is right, nor considering different opinions.

How can a Free Mason pledge an allegiance with Jedi?
Why would we not?

Is there any contradiction between Free Masonry and Jediism? How does one follow the oaths of both?
Nope. The oaths sworn in a lodge are made in a way where only you are bound to promises given therein. I was raised roman catholic, I am a Bishop and Master Knight of Jediism and I am a Master Mason. While the catholic church still frowns on my masonry. it has not interferred with my life, it has only enriched it. To be honest, it is very easy to be a Mason and everything else.

This is maybe a bit off-topic but I studied Freemason symbolism and rituals quite a lot and was just wondering what exactly can still be considered "Freemasonry". For example there are Rosicrucian groups that have initiation rituals similar to those used in FM lodges.

Also, recently I came across an old book from the "Woodmen of the World" and their rituals are almost verbatim the same as those used in some Masonic lodges.

So my question would actually be: Can such groups be considered as being Freemasons? Who determines what is part of the Freemason "world" and what is not? I did read something about "irregular" masons once but I'm not really sure what the term means. Does it apply to certain lodges within Freemasonry (such as those who accept women) or does it mean groups like the ones I mentioned above?

Zanthan Storm wrote: I was raised roman catholic, I am a Bishop and Master Knight of Jediism and I am a Master Mason. While the catholic church still frowns on my masonry. it has not interferred with my life, it has only enriched it. To be honest, it is very easy to be a Mason and everything else.

It is true that the relationship between the Catholic Church and Freemasonry has been a difficult and troublesome one. It's interesting to note however that following the Second Vatican Council, the church - through a special delegation - did enter into talks with various representatives of masonry in order to determine if membership in (some) lodges would be acceptable for Catholics. After quite a lot of discussions, the church denied this.
However, despite this fact, the new Church Canon Law Book (= CIC 1983) issued under Pope John Paul II. does no longer explicitly threaten masons with excommunication so I think one could say that tensions have relaxed a little.