Freemason Jedis

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25 Jan 2014 22:05 - 25 Jan 2014 22:17 #134788 by Ty
Replied by Ty on topic Freemason Jedis
I did not see any rules about dead threads, or any rules for the forum in general except in the FAQ (please send me a link if I am wrong).

So, I thought I would resurrect this thread, as I am a hard atheist, which a few people in this thread, and more on this forum, appear to have never met before.

I do not believe in any form of supernatural higher power. I do not believe in ghosts, voodoo, tarot, remote viewing, witchcraft, psychics, or any other "woo", to borrow a term from James Randi.

I do however, have to argue that the masons are quite mistaken. I may not believe in any of these things, but my grandfather was a mason, and I would love to become one myself. But I am, hilariously enough, too honest for Masons to accept. I was told that if I just bent my personal beliefs a -tad- and called myself a deist, I could become a mason. But I will not, and cannot do that, because I do not believe in any higher power. Deists believe in a higher power, but don't think it cares about us one whit, or judges us at all... so really, I don't see how it's that much different from atheism where Masons are concerned.

After all, Masons feel that you need some sort of higher power to aspire to emulating, so that you'll want to become a better person. They feel there has to be something to enforce your oath, to enforce you being a good person.

That is a load of horse hockey, to steal a term from M*A*S*H. I do not sit here on my laurels and not try and become a better person. As a matter of fact, I work my ass off to learn as much as I can to evolve my own beliefs, to learn more about myself and the world around me at every turn. I am more than willing to say "I don't know", but I am not willing to say I believe in something that I do not. I am not built in such a way that I can believe in something for which there is no evidence.

I am a hard atheist, but I work hard at self improvement, and I do not need some supernatural power to enforce any kind of oath against me. I wish to improve myself simply because I want to be the best person I can, know the most I can, and provide the best life I can for myself and whoever I choose to share my life. I love and care for others just as much as anyone who believes in a higher power can, and I would argue that I am even more highly motivated to make an impact in the world and better myself than anyone who believes in a higher power to come bail them out.

If you believe in the power of prayer, or witchcraft, or anything else that is a supernatural fallback, something you can call on in times of stress or need that will help to bail you out, then you have something I do not have. If you believe that God or Gaia or the Force is looking out for others, than that can turn into a copout, and a reason for you not to go and help those people yourselves.

Through basic philosophy I can employ the golden rule and discover that because I want to live my life a certain way, and I can find satisfaction and happiness by being treated in a certain fashion, others might wish to be treated that way too. Through basic observational skills I can observe that as being true. And then, because there is -no one else- that is going to help bail those people out, no one else that is going to go to their rescue or aid, I act. I do my best to change the world around me precisely because I am the only one going to do it. Humans often fall victim to a psychological bias that makes us think that something else will take care of a problem. We only feel responsibility for something if we are the only people there who could prevent it. This is called the Bystander Effect. Sometimes people feel the same thing with religion. God can change it, so why should they bother? It must be part of the plan.

I do not bear the Masons any grudge or ill will. I love them, and the work they do in improving themselves. But when they cannot look past the ends of their own noses to see that it is, in fact, possible for someone to wish to improve themselves, to strive to be better, even without a god?
When they feel that I could not be trusted to hold an oath, simply because I do not believe in a god?

That stings. It stings like no other, because I know it is not true. There are hundreds of thousands of examples of pious individuals breaking oaths for a myriad of reasons. Believing in a higher power is not some magical fail safe.

So why not give me, or other atheists who are in the same boat, a shot?
Last edit: 25 Jan 2014 22:17 by Ty.

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  • FraterDavid
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27 Jan 2014 02:54 #135003 by FraterDavid
Replied by FraterDavid on topic Freemason Jedis
Ty, are you looking for a helpful response to your questions? Or were your questions largely rhetorical, as you have already made up your mind about them and were primarily just venting at this point? (Which is ok, if you were. That can have its uses too.)

A lot of people ask questions that they don't really want to hear answers to. Their questions may be merely a vehicle to express their anger. Or they ask the wrong questions and then wonder why they never get any helpful answers toward what they really wanted to know.

If you were seeking constructive feedback, let me know.

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27 Jan 2014 03:09 #135006 by Ty
Replied by Ty on topic Freemason Jedis
The masons I asked didn't have an actual answer, so if you do actually know the answers, I would be more than happy to hear them.

It was, after all, a little of both. Heh.

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27 Jan 2014 03:21 #135009 by Wescli Wardest
Replied by Wescli Wardest on topic Freemason Jedis
I know people that are Masons. Some are just outstanding individuals and some have traits that are less than desirable in my book.

That being said, we are all just people. We are all fallible. And we all have our moments when we shine.

Even though I would love to discuss things with them, they have their oaths, reasons and beliefs. Just because I may not agree with them entirely does not justify any judgment one may make of them.

From what I understand of their beliefs, the importance of having one (a deity) that is higher than the individual is because of their belief in a grand design and their place to serve. If there were not an architect, who would you serve, be “accountable” to and gain a “divine” guidance from?
Jut my opinion from the details I have been able to gather.

Monastic Order of Knights

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  • Lightstrider
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27 Jan 2014 07:00 #135045 by Lightstrider
Replied by Lightstrider on topic Freemason Jedis
Read Albert Pike's Morals and Dogma, read Manly P. Hall as well.

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27 Jan 2014 08:02 #135049 by Llama Su
Replied by Llama Su on topic Freemason Jedis
I am doing my best to refrain from this conversation...

See, I think I am considered a conspiracy theorist, so, I will do my best to not judge...

Questions for Free and Accepted Masons: (please forgive if answered already)

What is the acceptance about? What does it mean?

What is the difference of Free Mason, and Mason? If everyone is free??

Why be secret, what is the point? Cool, you got a gentleman's club, but to act like you got something to hide, tells me your hiding something, not any particular individual maybe, not speaking to the Masons here, like they have or know some agenda, but really, to conceal, forms an identity of mistrust, no?

I would like to see someone refute Manly P.Hall ;)

Plus, the years of experience studying and research, my gut or faith says there is more going on behind the curtain of this gentleman's lodge...

In all fairness I have nothing against the Masons here, I hope this is realized.

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27 Jan 2014 11:06 #135056 by Whyte Horse
Replied by Whyte Horse on topic Freemason Jedis
The reason freemasons require a belief in a higher power is because it serves as a basis for control through co-optation. If you go beyond the 3rd degree you find they believe in the great architect who is above all the other gods. This great architect is known as Horus:

Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts.

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27 Jan 2014 12:39 #135069 by Luthien
Replied by Luthien on topic Freemason Jedis
From what I've gathered, they also hold in reverence the figure known as Lucifer, or "bringer of light", in that their vision is to illuminate the minds of men. Though this is possible, I can't substantiate this as most things in the fraternity are secretive in nature.

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27 Jan 2014 13:07 #135072 by Wescli Wardest
Replied by Wescli Wardest on topic Freemason Jedis
I have seen several things in this thread which sound an awful lot like people are buying into the suspicions, prejudices and rumor mongering that goes on far too often.

It seems that any time we don’t know what we think we are ‘entitle’ to know or are told everything we want, then we jump to popular conclusion.

And as far as secret goes, I have never had one refuse to talk to me and discuss things about themselves or their community.

I feel that for many, even if they invited you in and let you observe everything they do, you would still be convinced that it was all a conspiracy to keep the truth from you and that none of it was what was actually happening.

Also, by some of the posts in this thread I can tell that some people have never taken the time to actually find out what is going on. The internet conspiracy page is not a good place to get un bias opinions or facts.

I would suggest taking the time to actually talk to one, not question and accuse, and get to know them. Perhaps they will share with you.

Monastic Order of Knights

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  • Mareeka
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27 Jan 2014 13:24 #135073 by Mareeka
Replied by Mareeka on topic Freemason Jedis
Was just at a dinner last week with a mason.

He said two things. It is an organization that trains leaders and that they don't care what Higher Power you believe in . . just do so and participate in a community of shared belief. . . that is part of the mason training.

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