Freemason Jedis

27 Jan 2014 19:58 #135147 by Llama Su
Replied by Llama Su on topic Freemason Jedis

Acceptance? Acceptance of what exactly?

(Cant figure this quote thing just yet, sorry)

I would think the Masons would know, considering it is a part of the "Free and Accepted Masons"

Though I would pose a question to you all, what kind of illumination has been moving humanity forward for millenia? No I am not talking about photons from the sun.

Loaded question, appears to me, as if you already know the answer... or an idea of it...
I will take the bait...

Breaking down the context...

Illuminate= bring to light= light bearer...
Starts a whole new batch of conspiracies...
Which I can further theorize about... :sick:

I do not harbor secrets, if people want to know I tell the the truth. I do not know if secrecy is used the same for Jedi. I find secrets and honesty are a hard bargain...
Can someone give me an example, where hiding truth is proper/ right/ correct/ good/ positive, etc...?

Other than that, ok, Thank you for the replies and answers Zanthan, the "accepted" part still confounds me...

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27 Jan 2014 20:07 #135148 by Zanthan Storm
Replied by Zanthan Storm on topic Freemason Jedis
Your father asks that you keep a piece of information.. A bank code or something to your self.

If you make a promise to keep a secret, keep it as long as it is ethical and moral to do so. It teaches self discipline and promotes trust worthiness.

You are saying there is nothing you would rather keep to yourself?

Also, as i have said many times. Those secrets... Are out in the world already. Documented many times over. Our secret fraternity is public. Our secrets divulged. I can search Amazon for the books easily or the library closer to you likely have them.

Which accepted part?

Zanthan Storm
AKA Rev. Michael Ziskovsky OCP D.D.

Master Knight of Jediism
Founder of Roseville, MN Chapter of TOTJO

Past Master: GM Neaj Pa Bol
Past Apprentices: Sr. Knight Kira, Knight Myos, Doriann

"Let no one thing control your life, seek to be complete and at peace."
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27 Jan 2014 20:28 - 27 Jan 2014 20:53 #135152 by Lightstrider
Replied by Lightstrider on topic Freemason Jedis
There's Jabulon too, but to me it seems all the talk of Lucifer and what not are metaphors like any dogma. The higher power of Lucifer is the higher power of man's intellect I think. They might be Atheists in the strictest sense. My friend joined a lodge and went through all the degree schemes and is 32nd degree, it's nothing special just another religion with their own dogma. But when you read Albert Pike and Manly Hall you really start to wonder.....Jewish mysticism / Kabbalah nonsense.

EDIT: According to the conspiracies certain lodges were hijacked by "illuminati" type groups and were used to wield political influence and what not. Now it seems all of Freemasonry is blamed as a conspirator which just isn't true. You will find all sorts of "masonic" symbolism in our modern entertainments and music, especially pop culture. I think that certain lodges, certain groups of people, have basically used all the ancient symbolism in their own way which has NOTHING to do with what Freemasonry itself is about. As most of "masonic" symbolism is not even masonic, it's ancient and I believe that at one time when masonry was just about building and keeping the sacred mathematical architectural codes and formulas, this really wasn't about any religion or dogma. Then they are started taking in speculative masons who had nothing to do with masonry and then all the twisting and turning occured. Most of the symbols are very ancient and found in many cultures, traditions, religions and philosophies. I would assume that Freemasonry was actually something along the lines of TOJTO, inspiring self exploration and achievement of your own higher aspirations as you are guided by the myths and metaphors of the ancients. Today it's nothing, just a tool like most of the other religions. Old guys sitting around talking about hunting with the wives, but I'm sure there are some higher up lodges that get into things that have given the rest of Freemasonry a bad rap. I would consider joining my local lodge just for networking.

Here's a fun read, should give you more avenues to explore regarding this topic.
Last edit: 27 Jan 2014 20:53 by Lightstrider.

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27 Jan 2014 20:31 #135153 by Zanthan Storm
Replied by Zanthan Storm on topic Freemason Jedis
I missed the first section sorry. Accepted. I honestly have never seen a difference in the lodges or ceremonies. I have been told there isadifference in some of the history. Sorry that's all I have on that.

Zanthan Storm
AKA Rev. Michael Ziskovsky OCP D.D.

Master Knight of Jediism
Founder of Roseville, MN Chapter of TOTJO

Past Master: GM Neaj Pa Bol
Past Apprentices: Sr. Knight Kira, Knight Myos, Doriann

"Let no one thing control your life, seek to be complete and at peace."
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27 Jan 2014 21:03 #135158 by Zanthan Storm
Replied by Zanthan Storm on topic Freemason Jedis
Actually though lightstrider,
I wouldn't say it is nothing. My lodge is very active in the community and the lessons they teach I believe to be very important. I would advise a visitation to the lodge near you as you suggested.

As for the history. Yes, it has many different symbols as it has been influenced throughout the ages. Some bad and some good. However, the true intent if masonry is in the individual Mason.

Zanthan Storm
AKA Rev. Michael Ziskovsky OCP D.D.

Master Knight of Jediism
Founder of Roseville, MN Chapter of TOTJO

Past Master: GM Neaj Pa Bol
Past Apprentices: Sr. Knight Kira, Knight Myos, Doriann

"Let no one thing control your life, seek to be complete and at peace."

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27 Jan 2014 21:05 - 27 Jan 2014 21:14 #135159 by Llama Su
Replied by Llama Su on topic Freemason Jedis
At 3 minutes in this video, some interesting talk, By Jordan Maxwell. For anyone interested...

I think there is a fine line between the personal honor you have with a friend, or father, and the impersonal trust you have with a stranger or neighbor...

Also, as i have said many times. Those secrets... Are out in the world already. Documented many times over. Our secret fraternity is public. Our secrets divulged. I can search Amazon for the books easily or the library closer to you likely have them.

Interesting, would you care to share these amazon links?
Last edit: 27 Jan 2014 21:14 by Llama Su. Reason: quote in boardcode, unable to figure out.

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27 Jan 2014 21:07 - 27 Jan 2014 21:21 #135161 by Lightstrider
Replied by Lightstrider on topic Freemason Jedis
Some more interesting info....

"Freemasonry is a fraternity within a fraternity -- an outer organization concealing an inner brotherhood of the elect ... it is necessary to establish the existence of these two separate and yet interdependent orders, the one visible and the other invisible. The visible society is a splendid camaraderie of 'free and accepted' men enjoined to devote themselves to ethical, educational, fraternal, patriotic, and humanitarian concerns. The invisible society is a secret and most August [defined as 'of majestic dignity, grandeur'] fraternity whose members are dedicated to the service of a mysterious arcannum arcandrum [defined as 'a secret, a mystery']." [Hall, Lectures on Ancient Philosophy, p. 433]

Albert Mackey, 33rd Degree Mason and author of the informative "Encyclopaedia of Freemasonry", 1873, confirms Hall's revelation.

"Visible Masonry: In a circular published March 18, 1775, by the Grand Orient of France, reference is made to two divisions of the Order, namely, Visible and Invisible Masonry ... by 'Invisible Masonry' they denoted that body of intelligent and virtuous Masons who, irrespective of any connection with dogmatic authorities, constituted a 'Mysterious and Invisible Society of the True Sons of Light', who, scattered over the two hemisphere, were engaged, with one heart and soul in doing everything for the glory of the Great Architect and for the good of their fellow-men."

"By 'Visible Masonry' they meant the congregation of Masons into Lodges, which were often affected by the contagious vices of the age in which they lived. The former is perfect; the latter continually needs purification." (Albert Mackey, 33rd Degree, "Encyclopaedia of Freemasonry", 1873, page 829)

In other words, Masons of the Invisible Lodge are the truly "Perfected Men", while the poor regular Masons of the Visible Lodge are afflicted with the "contagious vices of the age in which they lived". Mackey holds Masons of the Visible Lodge in very, very low esteem. And, notice that Masonry has divided itself into these two Lodges a very long time agao, in 1775! Masonry has almost always been this way.

Many well-meaning men are members of this visible society with no knowledge whatsoever of the inner invisible society. In fact, Albert Pike had some things to say about the brethren in the visible society:

"Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries, Hermeticism, and Alchemy, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be mislead; to conceal the Truth, which it calls light, and draw them away from it." [Morals and Dogma, p. 104-5, 3rd Degree]

Members of the visible society are referred to as the 'masses', and you do comprise 95% of all Masons. Listen to what Pike says about telling the truth of the organization to the 'masses': "A Spirit", he said, "that loves wisdom and contemplates the Truth close at hand, is forced to disguise it, to induce the multitudes [that is you] to accept it ... Fictions are necessary to the people, and the Truth becomes deadly to those who are not strong enough to contemplate it in all its brilliance." [Morals and Dogma, p. 103, 3rd Degree; Emphasis added]

A very recent book also speaks of these two organizations. David Ovason, a noted astrologer, has written a book publised in 1999, entitled, The Secret Architecture of our Nation's Capital: The Masons and the Building of Washington, D.C. This book is not an anti-Mason book; in fact, a glowing forward to this book is written by none other than C. Fred Kleinknecht, 33 Degree, Sovereign Grand Commander, The Supreme Council, 33 Degree (Mother Council of the World), Southern Jurisdiction, U.S.A., Washington, D.C. In other words, the conclusions of this book are highly thought of by one of the most important current Masons in the world today! Listen to what this book says about the two organizations of Freemasonry,

After speaking of the "cosmic astral journey in Masonic terms", Ovason speaks of the meaning of the more common symbols of Masonry. "... Bromwell injected a profound level of esotericism into the bland-seeming symbols used within the Lodges. These proliferate on the so-called tracing boards and carpets ... used by Master Masons to demonstrate Masonic symbols to the neophytes. When not used as an instrument of education, the tracing boards and carpets remain as symbols of the Lodge -- of the inner and outer way of the Craft." [Page 99] So, David Ovason admits that Masonry has both an "inner" [Invisible] and an "outer" [Visible] society. And, Albert Pike has boldly stated that the "neophytes" are deliberately taught untruths about the meaning of the symbols!

"7. For what purpose then have we invented this whole policy and insinuated it into the minds of the gentiles without giving them any chance to examine its underlying meaning? For what, indeed, if not in order to obtain in a roundabout way what is for our scattered tribe unattainable by the direct road? It is this which has served as the basis for our organisation of SECRET MASONRY WHICH IS NOT KNOWN TO, AND AIMS WHICH ARE NOT EVEN SO MUCH AS SUSPECTED BY, THESE GENTILE CATTLE, ATTRACTED BY US INTO THE SHOW ARMY OF MASONIC LODGES IN ORDER TO THROW DUST IN THE EYES OF THEIR FELLOWS." [Protocol #11 - The Totalitarian State, Paragraph 7; Emphasis was in the original]

"When a Mason learns the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his Craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands and before he may step onward and upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply energy." [The Lost Keys To Freemasonry, Manly P. Hall, published by the Macoy Publishing and Masonic Supply Company, Inc., Richmond, Virginia, 1976, p. 48; Emphasis added]

"There is no dissociation between the One Universal Church, the sacred inner Lodge of all true Masons, and the inner-most circles of the esoteric societies. [Bailey, Externalisation of the Hierarchy, p. 513]

Bailey is saying here that, once you get into the Inner, Invisible part of Freemasonry, there is no distinction possible between this heart of Masonry, the true Universal Church [which we know to be the church of Antichrist], and of the similar inner-most circles of the other secret societies throughout the world.

But, then, Bailey makes an even stronger statement revealing the Inner, Invisible Masonic fraternity. "The Masonic Movement ... is the custodian of the law; it is the home of the Mysteries, and the seat of initiation. It holds in it symbolism the ritual of Deity, and the way of salvation is pictorially preserved in its work. The methods of Deity are demonstrated in its Temples, and under the All-seeing Eye the work can go forward. It is a far more occult organisation than can be realised, and it is intended to be the training school for the coming advanced occultists." [Bailey, Externalisation of the Hierarchy, p. 511]

"Part of the symbols are displayed there to the initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them." (Albert Pike, "Morals and Dogma," page 819)Albert Pike (1809-1891), the most infamous figure in Freemasonry, founder of the evil Ku Klux Klan, and the father of modern-day Freemasonry, degraded lower level Masons, saying that they “DESERVE ONLY TO BE MISLED.” ...

"Lucifer represents.. Life.. Thought.. Progress.. Civilization.. Liberty.. Independence.. Lucifer is the Logos.. the Serpent, the Savior." pages 171, 225, 255 (Volume II)

"It is Satan who is the God of our planet and the only God." pages 215, 216, 220, 245, 255, 533, (VI)

"The Celestial Virgin which thus becomes the Mother of Gods and Devils at one and the same time; for she is the ever-loving beneficent Deity...but in antiquity and reality Lucifer or Luciferius is the name. Lucifer is divine and terrestrial Light, 'the Holy Ghost' and 'Satan' at one and the same time." page 539

Helena Petrovna Blavatsky 32° Co-Freemason
The Secret Doctrine

Here's even more:
Last edit: 27 Jan 2014 21:21 by Lightstrider.

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27 Jan 2014 21:08 - 27 Jan 2014 21:11 #135162 by Zanthan Storm
Replied by Zanthan Storm on topic Freemason Jedis
On my phone right now. Or else i would. Just go and search freemasons. Many pop up.

Zanthan Storm
AKA Rev. Michael Ziskovsky OCP D.D.

Master Knight of Jediism
Founder of Roseville, MN Chapter of TOTJO

Past Master: GM Neaj Pa Bol
Past Apprentices: Sr. Knight Kira, Knight Myos, Doriann

"Let no one thing control your life, seek to be complete and at peace."
Last edit: 27 Jan 2014 21:11 by Zanthan Storm.
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27 Jan 2014 21:19 - 27 Jan 2014 22:10 #135166 by Lightstrider
Replied by Lightstrider on topic Freemason Jedis
My problem with all the conspiracies against Freemasonry, and the claiming of devil worship and evil doing, is that it comes from those who already have a religious bias in that they are hardcore Christian or something. There is probably an element of truth to it all, but really, a lot of people making these claims based on their religious dogma, are people who do not even understand their own dogma.

I think what makes sense the most is that Freemasonry is controlled by Jewish organized crime, and just like the fingers were always pointed at Italians, fingers are now pointed at Freemasonry.

Or maybe Jews are the scapegoat? This has nothing to do with your average Jewish person, I'm not racist or anything, just sharing information.
Last edit: 27 Jan 2014 22:10 by Lightstrider.

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28 Jan 2014 08:37 - 28 Jan 2014 08:41 #135241 by FraterDavid
Replied by FraterDavid on topic Freemason Jedis
Just a warning, this is long, so if you're not Ty or Llama Su, you may want to skip on to the next post.

Ty wrote: So, I thought I would resurrect this thread, as I am a hard atheist

Well, when you put it that way, I'm not sure how I feel about being hit up with a hard atheist's post. Especially if it's strong enough to resurrect anything. LOL

Just messing with you, brother... Plus, it's good to begin with humor when dispelling darkness.

Ty wrote: I do not believe in any form of supernatural higher power.

Nor should you, necessarily. The term "supernatural" has long seemed like a misnomer to me, but I suppose it depends on how you define Nature. To me, Nature is the sum total of all that which exists within manifestation. (And that manifestation is an expression of duality or polarity.) So a thing either exists at all, and is necessarily a part of Nature, or that thing does not exist. Now, a thing may prove to be a part of Nature that is not yet able to be sampled or measured by modern science, but absence of proof is not proof of absence.

Ghosts, psychics, remote viewing, etc would not fall under the category of supernatural, if they exist, and they need not have anything whatsoever to do with a higher power, if so. That is important to understand: even if I could prove to you definitively that ghosts or psychic faculties exist, it would in no way prove that God is real.

As for Tarot, it sounds as though you are operating from a limited awareness of it. Since you mentioned it in the context of the supernatural, I will assume you mean Tarot as used for fortune-telling or divinatory purposes. Using Tarot for those purposes is like using a gold brick for a doorstop. It gets the job done, but it's also a brick of solid gold! It has much better uses.

Tarot is a book without a binding, of suggestive imagery intended to assist the inner development of a person's various faculties of consciousness that lead to mastery of Nature. And by faculties of consciousness, I mean non-supernatural ones like focus, memory, imagination, reason, intuition, discrimination, etc. Such unfoldment is the original and primary function of Tarot.

Ty wrote: I do not believe in ghosts, voodoo, tarot, remote viewing, witchcraft, psychics, or any other "woo", to borrow a term from James Randi.

I love James Randi. lol

Ty wrote: I do however, have to argue that the masons are quite mistaken.

Man, I really find myself wanting to quote Emperor Palpatine right now. Heh

Ty wrote: I may not believe in any of these things, but my grandfather was a mason, and I would love to become one myself.

I would have to echo Wescli Wardest's question here and ask, why? Assuming that they somehow magically allowed you to join, why would you want to join an organization that believes in something you do not?

Ty wrote: But I am, hilariously enough, too honest for Masons to accept.

I realize that you were probably saying this out of frustration, but it implies that you perceive Masons to be to some degree dishonest. How else could you be "too honest" for them? If that's really what you think of them, then again, why would you love to join a group of dishonest people? :p

I would say that your honesty is admirable and is one of the components of the right path to be on, be it Masonic in flavor or otherwise. The crux of the problem is what you admitted, not the fact that you admitted it, and how that admission fails to fit into the framework of how Masonry functions. (More on this in a minute.)

Ty wrote: I was told that if I just bent my personal beliefs a -tad- and called myself a deist, I could become a mason.

The fact that you were told that is evidence that they were trying to help you realize your aspiration. They weren't trying to bend you into something you are not. And it is good that you insisted on what you think is right and correct. It is better that you never become a Mason than to become one under false pretenses or for the wrong reasons.

Ty wrote: Deists believe in a higher power, but don't think it cares about us one whit, or judges us at all... so really, I don't see how it's that much different from atheism where Masons are concerned.

There is a world of difference between atheism and deism, where Masonry is concerned or otherwise. I think the wikipedia definition sheds light in this respect:

"Deism is the belief that reason and observation of the natural world are sufficient to determine the existence of a Creator, accompanied with the rejection of revelation and authority as sources of religious knowledge. Deism holds that God does not intervene with the functioning of the natural world in any way, allowing it to run according to the laws of nature."

This doesn't have to mean that Deists see God as something cold, uncaring, or unloving. If we consider that these laws of nature may have been created perfectly to enforce the divine principles that we see unfolding around us all the time as mathematical interactions, among them being life and evolution, then we can see why God would have no need to intervene. But Deism still believes in a unifying power of creation, a divine Source consciousness, expressed through, and discernible by observation of, natural laws, whereas atheism believes the opposite.

Ty wrote: After all, Masons feel that you need some sort of higher power to aspire to emulating, so that you'll want to become a better person. They feel there has to be something to enforce your oath, to enforce you being a good person.

That is a load of horse hockey, to steal a term from M*A*S*H.

I agree, that is a load of horse hockey... if it were true. I'm sure some Masons may feel that way, but overall that is not why belief in a higher power is required.

As you know from your own experience, it is entirely possible to be an atheist and still be able to keep a secret or to be a good person and work on improving yourself. So, purely by logic, that cannot be what it's about.

The problem is one of consciousness: A person cannot choose that which they refuse to see. Above the outer door of the ancient Mystery schools (of which Freemasonry is a vestigial descendant), you would find a plaque saying, "Know Thyself." Notice that it does not say, "Know God" or "Believe in God". The esoteric assertion is that to truly and completely know your Self is to know God, absent of any need for belief. (Hence the whole bit about "the Father and I are one.") There is only ever One true and lasting Identity. We must strive to realize that, and to recognize that it is the only true Self we will ever have. Anything lesser is transient and encompassed by death.

The esoteric conception of God is not as something external. To deny the existence of the spiritual within you is to deny a portion of your total being. You cannot actualize what you are not willing to dedicate yourself to exploring as though it might be true. Developing oneself in Masonry is a spiritual endeavor, so of what benefit can it possibly be to you if you do not believe in the existence of spirit? Sure, you can try to use it to make yourself a better person, but there are many avenues outside of Masonry that you could use to do that.

Ty wrote: I do not sit here on my laurels and not try and become a better person.

Knowing you are an atheist did not cause me to assume otherwise, brother.

Ty wrote: As a matter of fact, I work my ass off to learn as much as I can to evolve my own beliefs, to learn more about myself and the world around me at every turn.

It does show, for what it's worth. Those are necessary prerequisites to the truly spiritual path. Self-improvement is the hardest work we will ever do.

Ty wrote: I am not built in such a way that I can believe in something for which there is no evidence.

Evidence has always been a matter of interpretation. It depends on what you would even be willing to consider as being evidence. How rightly discerning are our observations? Our interpretation of potential evidence is always going to be dependent upon our interpretations of past experience. Our level of awareness determines what truths evidence themselves to us or not.

Also, we tend to find what we look for. There is ample evidence in the world if one is simply willing to look for it, to connect the dots. But that will never happen for someone as long as they actively believe there is nothing to find. In the center of the Masonic square and compasses symbol, there is most often depicted a capital letter G. This G stands for Geometry, not God. Geometry means literally "earth measurement". Additionally, both the square and compasses are tools of measurement. Why do you suppose all that is? Why would a spiritual brotherhood be centrally concerned with measuring earthly things?

This is alluding to the fact that we may find all the evidence we need concerning the hypothesis (that we are centers of expression for a greater consciousness) by looking upon the face of Nature herself. The more we measure the specifics of Nature and determine her laws, and discover the geometric and other mathematical relationships expressed therein, we cannot help but eventually arrive at the conclusion that there is something deeper to all of it.

But in order for the door to be opened unto you, first you must knock.

Ty wrote: I am a hard atheist

lol, I'm sorry, that just never gets old. :)

Ty wrote: I do not need some supernatural power to enforce any kind of oath against me.

No, you don't. But again, that's not what it's about.

Ty wrote: I love and care for others just as much as anyone who believes in a higher power can

That is because what gives you the capacity for love is fortunately not dependent upon your belief in it. :) Still, we do become more empowered once we choose consciously to work in alignment with the source of all power. And we cannot begin to do that so long as we believe that the source of our power is the personality.

Ty wrote: I am even more highly motivated to make an impact in the world and better myself than anyone who believes in a higher power to come bail them out.

Well, I would definitely agree with that. But only because someone who believes in a higher power that way is merely engaging in escapism, not true spirituality. Through sustained observation we are enabled to discover all the solutions we will ever need to the problems of the world.

Ty wrote: If you believe in the power of prayer, or witchcraft, or anything else that is a supernatural fall-back, something you can call on in times of stress or need that will help to bail you out, then you have something I do not have.

It is interesting that you bring this up in a Masonic context. I say that because in Masonry, we are encouraged to call upon the assistance of Deity before any worthy undertaking, not as a last resort after the fact. To me, this reveals that Masonry understands the true role of prayer in manifesting desired results.

Incidentally, those who believe in the natural power of prayer do not have anything you do not also have. They are simply using what you also have in your possession but refuse to use due to a belief in its absurdity.

Ty wrote: If you believe that God or Gaia or the Force is looking out for others, then that can turn into a copout, and a reason for you not to go and help those people yourselves.

...Unless you also believe that God is looking out for others through you. :) It is always an outwardly emanative, interior principle.

Ty wrote: Through basic philosophy I can employ the golden rule and discover that because I want to live my life a certain way, and I can find satisfaction and happiness by being treated in a certain fashion, others might wish to be treated that way too. Through basic observational skills I can observe that as being true.

Yes, but what makes you desire to do so in the first place? And having reached that conclusion, what causes you to act on it in favor of other people? You seem to take it for granted that it matters to you. Distill it down... I think you will find the desire is born from an intuitive perception of unity. That is the basis of all love. It cannot come from the level of your personality. That level, without conscious modification, only knows how to express "I am separate."

Ty wrote: God can change it, so why should they bother? It must be part of the plan.

I think only the most superficially religious believe that way.

Ty wrote: I love them, and the work they do in improving themselves.

That speaks well for you.

Ty wrote: But when they cannot look past the ends of their own noses to see that it is, in fact, possible for someone to wish to improve themselves, to strive to be better, even without a god? When they feel that I could not be trusted to hold an oath, simply because I do not believe in a god?

Hopefully by now I have made it clear why this is not the case? Although I can certainly understand how they could seem to be as you describe them, if you encountered none among them who understood the actual reasons well enough to explain them to you. It's not that they don't think you can wish to improve youself, strive to be better, etc. It is that the Masonic symbols (including the working tools), are spiritual in nature, and will thus provide little benefit to you if you do not recognize the existence of any higher power as a frame of reference.

Then again, recent research on the subject that I stumbled across on might shed some odd and disturbing light as well. LOL

Ty wrote: That stings. It stings like no other, because I know it is not true.

I am sorry that it affected you that way, brother. That shows emotional strength on your part that you are able to be so candid about how it affected you. I can assure you that they meant no slight. But also, just know that they were not operating from religious prejudice or antiquated thinking (or well, they may have been, I wasn't there, but the origin of the requirement is not based in those).

Overall, it sounds like you're on the right track, but you have more searching and experiencing to do. (Don't we all!) Perhaps for you it will require eventually meeting someone who is able to demonstrate true spiritual power.

Ty wrote: So why not give me, or other atheists who are in the same boat, a shot?

The belief in a higher power, or central universal intelligence, opens unique doors within a person, and makes unique suggestions that will eventually unfold through subconscious deduction in ways that simply doing your best to be a good person never will. I will say this, though: Love is key, because of the feeling of unity underlying it. You can't go wrong by cultivating love inside you toward all of life.

The rest of this is directed at Llama Su's comments and questions:

Llama Su wrote: The Free Masons I have spoken to on other sites come across arrogant... Mind you I never met one in person... All I was doing was asking questions, never made any statement of claim they were evil, or anything...

Well, you never know who you're actually dealing with on websites. And the same goes for them toward you -- they have no idea who you are, and so they may have been responding cautiously or guardedly in a way that came off sounding arrogant or dickish. It happens. Also, every Mason is in a different degree of spiritual development. I would say that the most developed Masons are often those who are also the most kind and humble. Now keep in mind, spiritually developed is not at all the same thing as being high-ranking. You will know the tree by its fruit.

Llama Su wrote: I am doing my best to refrain from this conversation...

LOL, Fair enough.

Llama Su wrote: See, I think I am considered a conspiracy theorist, so, I will do my best to not judge...

At least you're honest about it. :) And your considerate restraint is always appreciated, of course.

Llama Su wrote: What is the acceptance about? What does it mean?

It refers to a couple of things. First of all, each aspirant (or "petitioner") must be accepted by all his fellow Masons of the Lodge before he is allowed admittance as an Entered Apprentice. In other words, you must be found suitable according to the 3 requirements, plus not be a criminal or a cowan (a person just trying to get in so they can cause mischief or run off with all the secrets but with no desire to do the work of improving themselves), and you must be found to be of good character and repute, which is determined in a few different ways. (And has nothing to do with religious preference.)

"Accepted" is also a reference to the petitioner being "the stone the builders rejected" (Matthew 21:42), which Masonry then accepts and shapes to become the cornerstone of the entire Temple. For those who might be interested, this is an esoteric alchemical reference to the Stone of the Wise, or Philosopher's Stone, that "House not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Does this sufficiently answer your question?

Llama Su wrote: What is the difference of Free Mason, and Mason? If everyone is free??

Mason, when capitalized, is interchangeable with Freemason. But the reason for saying "Freemason" originally arose due to the need to distinguish between actual bricks-and-mortar (or "operative") masons and fraternal (or "speculative") masons, i.e. Freemasons. "Speculative" comes from the Latin for "mirror", as what we do is to reflect upon the spiritual meanings attributable to an operative mason's working tools, generally, and also specifically in the context of building a temple or adytum.

Llama Su wrote: Why be secret, what is the point?

For two reasons:

1. It has become a tradition.

Back in the dim times before the Empire, Freemasonry was criticized and condemned by the dominant secular, and then later religious, authorities because they were becoming too financially powerful, and also a lot of people didn't understand the symbolism of their rituals. Keep in mind, this was at a time when calculus was perceived as witchcraft. :p So Masons HAD to be secretive just to stay alive. The habit kind of stuck.

2. It has a beneficial effect upon the Brethren.

It helps instill the virtues of loyalty and trustworthiness, as well as making a suggestion of reverence and importance to each man's subconsciousness concerning the degree work. In short, it makes it matter more. Anything that increases focused attention will enhance the results that are garnered from any undertaking involving work with the Force.

Llama Su wrote: Cool, you got a gentleman's club, but to act like you got something to hide, tells me your hiding something, not any particular individual maybe, not speaking to the Masons here, like they have or know some agenda, but really, to conceal, forms an identity of mistrust, no?

Masonry is a lot more than a gentleman's club. :p Although sometimes these days it can be hard to discern otherwise with some Lodges. It is unfortunate.

It's all about the effect it has on the Brethren. We don't really care what effect it may have on those outside the fraternity, because they're not in a position to have a clearer understanding anyway. If they wish to know more, they can always make petition, or just do some book searching.

Like others have said, we're the worst-kept secret in history, if you know how to do any digging at all. You can find out whatever you want to know about the contents of our rituals and initiations, etc. But all of it is designed to be mysterium, or that which must be experienced to be fully understood. So knowing about the goods is not going to give you the goods.

Identity of mistrust? To a paranoid person, perhaps (not saying you are one). I've always seen it as forming an identity of reverence. You experience it, and you don't talk about it to those who haven't also experienced it. Which is a good rule of thumb in occult matters in general anyway. Hence the last item of the four "powers of the Sphinx": To Know, To Will, To Dare, and To Be Silent.

Llama Su wrote: I would like to see someone refute Manly P. Hall ;)

Haha, what about? And why?

Llama Su wrote: Plus, the years of experience studying and research, my gut or faith says there is more going on behind the curtain of this gentleman's lodge...

There may be, because of certain individual Masons that are power hungry, just like is probably going on inside the world banks and mega-corporations with non-Masons. But that has no bearing on what Freemasonry is like as a rule. Masonry helps make good men better and drives a strong presence of charity and healing research in many communities. Ultimately, as an individual, you get out of it what you put into it.

Llama Su wrote: In all fairness I have nothing against the Masons here, I hope this is realized.

Oh right, sure... It's all in good fun, til someone loses an all-seeing eye! :p I can't speak for the others here, but I was not bothered by anything you wrote. :) Peace to you as well, brother.
Last edit: 28 Jan 2014 08:41 by FraterDavid. Reason: Added a blank line

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