Editing Rights Question

Great good gods, I'm not even sure where to begin or what to say.

I didn't see the original issue, I'm gathering someone posted about another website and one of our mods edited it to link to his libel website?

This is not the kind of etiquette I want to see in this community and I do not support it. Thank you Mad for getting involved. I've put myself on a mini vacation until Tuesday, but couldn't miss seeing this when I went to share some of my crafts and some work I'd promised a while ago.

Anyone can complain about an issue they see. It's what we do to help each other and support each other. It's a part of our Knight's Code "I will defend the helpless" and I'm sure if I went into our Doctrine I could find bits there too that support that. We all have the right to question what we feel might be wrong. Sure there may have been other ways to handle it but I feel Opie did it professionally and not incorrectly.

Folks, please feel free to ask about problems and issues you see. To me, or any other Knight you feel comfortable with talking to if you don't feel comfortable posting on the forums. This is what we need to foster the kind of community I feel like we are trying to grow into. If we're not open to criticism, we won't go anywhere at all.

I would also like to point out that situations like this can be avoided and minimized by the establishment of and respect towards a clear line of duties, responsibilities, and rights to the leadership roles of the site, by all members of leadership and consequences therein...

Maybe something to consider discussing in that whole Pax Templi thing you guys are working on behind the scenes or something similar.

So far there's mockery, tearing down, and libel. The notion that merely because someone says they're a Jedi, or an organization has Jedi in its name, makes them good and worthy and entitled to respect is a pile of sour owl poo. There's other questions and issues I'm not ignoring just not addressing yet. One at a time. This is not directed at a single person but several. If the shoe fits ....

Please show me any statement that is not true on BecomeTheFarce.com - if it's all true with verifiable references then please explain how it's mockery, tearing down, or libel (libel must be a false statement).

Again, you missed the point of the thread, John.

The question at hand isn't to discuss the validity of the content of the site you created.

It's to discuss the validity of the action you took in moderating a link to redirect to your site in lieu of the site it originally linked to, because you personally don't like that original site.

Yes people have commented their opinion about your site, but that's still not the actual issue at hand...

Br. John wrote: So far there's mockery, tearing down, and libel. The notion that merely because someone says they're a Jedi, or an organization has Jedi in its name, makes them good and worthy and entitled to respect is a pile of sour owl poo. There's other questions and issues I'm not ignoring just not addressing yet. One at a time. This is not directed at a single person but several. If the shoe fits ....

Please show me any statement that is not true on BecomeTheFarce.com - if it's all true with verifiable references then please explain how it's mockery, tearing down, or libel (libel must be a false statement).

I may have the definition of libel incorrect, I meant it to be more "mud slinging" than anything. But I don't have the spoons or care to go fact checking because it just doesn't mean that much to me (I didn't read more than the titles on the page). But this isn't about respect for another website, this is about respect for OUR website, TotJO, how we handle things here, how we respect our members and rules, and how we respect ourselves.

As a personal note, I do appreciate websites that put the time into fact checking and making those facts available. Snoops is one of my favorite places to visit.

I don't go on your site and tell people your issues or criticize the way you do things.

Two things. First I didn't tell anyone your issues. You have clearly made those known by your responses here. Secondly, if I am acting out of line and abusing my administrator abilities - then not only would you be more than welcome to criticize, but the members would support you in doing so (as seems to be the case here, thankfully). Of course I'd need to actually abuse that responsibility first. But by all means. Swing by my place.

That would be rude.

No, it would be honest. It would be fair. It would be holding Jedi and Administration accountable. Besides - you make it seem like I came here. Sought out a post. And then made an issue of it. I replied to a post, noticed edits. That made me curious. And I noticed the transgression. Decided to ask about it because it directly impacts me as a poster here.

You could have PM'd me and asked about it. You could have PM'd member affairs about it.

Do you know why it being public upsets you? Because you know what you did was wrong. If you truly felt that what you did was okay, you wouldn't respond in this manner. Yes, I could have kept things under the table. But that is not my style. I saw something that I found issue with and I asked if it was the norm. Because that directly impacts my own involvement with this Community. I post here too (albeit rarely), so having understanding of how loose the editing rights are for mods and admins is a direct concern. Especially since I have in the past been a part of forums that would edit and change and even delete posts of its members at the whim of those in-charge. And I am not going to invest my time and energy into a place if that investment isn't respected. So I asked.

The only person with a right to complain is the poster.

lol No. All members here have a voice. And it is their right to speak up when they see something questionable happen. If I saw a person being robbed, I can still report that to the police - it isn't only the victim with the right to complain. Not only that but anyone who posts on this website should have a honest concern of editing at a whim. Sure it is his post today - might be my post tomorrow and another's post the day after. Staying silent because it didn't happen to me is not only logically flawed, but just never going to happen.

Have another drink

Really? How old are you again?

As for the rest - the other people seem to have understood my concern (nod to Jedi Kit and Jedi Light). What is the accepted level of moderation at this forum? That has been answered to a certain level. Along with appropriate action of editing done according to the standard posting rules of the website. In which I express my appreciation to the mature Jedi involved in that (Special Shout Out to Jedi Light and Jedi Hatter). As I said - you are allowed to make and dedicate whatever resources you want to websites mocking other people and groups. That isn't my concern. Only the apparent misuse of admin ability. Which again is simply something I wanted to know for myself so I can adjust my own involvement as necessary.

Thank you TotJO Knights and Mods - appreciate the response. May the Force be with you. 0123456789

End result:

Is the way this was handled by leadership appropriate?

If not, how do we go about fixing it?

Are there currently things in the works to address the issue already?

What can be done until such things are released to advance the goals of community building?

Edit: This is my basic OODA Loop for this stuff. Did we observe something inappropriate, we orient on the issues at hand and how we can address it, we make a decision on what is currently ongoing and what we can do to improve, and then we act to support the desired result.

Sometimes people that have no knowledge th history can have a more objective perspective Ob1.
Knowing the specifics is not necessarily compulsory as all human conflicts emanate from the same patterns.
I didnt order anybody to do anything but it is true I incited.
Whatever the nature of the conflict compassion is always a good answer where there is pain.
For some my action was bad for some it was good.
I appreciate your feedback.

Speaking of moderator abuse, Master Opie, how about the entire site you deleted with no way to recover it? Years of posts and discussions gone. I was correctly moderated here. Our system worked. I'm 57 btw.

Let me begin by saying that I am disappointed that these issues continue to pop up, and I don't think it has been handled as well as it could have been up to this point. It is my duty as a Security Officer and a Knight Adviser to weigh in and attempt to explain in the most transparent manner possible how we are addressing this issue at the Council level, so here goes...

Nakis wrote: End result:

Is the way this was handled by leadership appropriate?

There was a variety of responses and non-responses from various leadership, so I need to be specific. Br. John moderated a post and changed a URL link. This action is not explicitly defined as right or wrong in our site rules, but the various opinions from members and some leadership here show that some deemed this action inappropriate, and we need to address this with the current review of our policies. It must also be pointed out that this action was taken by our President and Founder who has full moderation privileges that he can choose to use at any time.
While the rules still certainly apply to him, it should be noted that as Moderators, we also have to police each other as fairly as possible. This takes courage, good judgment, and regretfully also some political finesse. MadHatter, as a Moderator, Councillor, and VP of Membership Affairs took said action and edited the original post again to be in line with our current policies for posting external links. Kit has expressed her opinion as a Councillor as well, and I commend her for being vocal about the issue quickly.

I am offering my personal response here and now. This is a problem that needs to be addressed. There is additional conversation that is taking place among other Councillors, but until we can address it openly as a group, we will not be able to offer a consensus or official opinion of the Council on this. It is being addressed though, and it will be taken into account as we make adjustments to our policies and create the Pax Templi document addressing acceptable behavior here. According to the way Council is run, we need to have these frank conversations and come to an agreement via vote on policy changes. These conversations can be contentious and heated, which is why we try to keep them out of the otherwise relatively peaceful environment of the Temple.

Nakis wrote: If not, how do we go about fixing it?

It will become a discussion point as we address the current website policies and procedures as well as the expected behavior of members and administration here. Everyone has their own opinions and they all need to be heard before we rush to conclusions. That includes opinions expressed by the membership in the recent poll as well as comments in threads like this one. It is a lot of information to consider.

Nakis wrote: Are there currently things in the works to address the issue already?

Yes, we were already working on revisions to the rules and regulations currently in place. The issue of appropriate moderation has been raised a lot recently, and as a Security Officer I take this issue very seriously. We want to get it right when moderating, and we're trying to create more fair and more clear guidelines for all moderators of the site.

Nakis wrote: What can be done until such things are released to advance the goals of community building?

First, discussions like this are helpful to Councillors as we attempt to address these recurring issues. I appreciate the attempts by all here to keep this conversation polite and constructive. Please continue to do so, and if you find yourself getting angry or emotional, please take a moment to collect your thoughts before responding. Together, we are all seeking a place that is engaging and challenging, but also fair and compassionate. It is a difficult tight rope to walk at times, but please know that it is always our goal to make this Temple a place people can enjoy spending their valuable time in.

As part of my responsibility to you all as guests, members, and fellow officers, I encourage any of you to PM me with your concerns or post your questions in response to any post I make in the forums. Sometimes conversations are better held in the privacy of PMs, but I also understand the need to inform everyone of what we are actually doing to address issues like this as they happen. I will always do my best to be honest and forthcoming with the information I have available to me.

At your service,
~Senan

I think threads like this show me some of my faults because I find them very entertaining. Especially how despite the best of original intent, and attempt to hold that intent, it always comes down to degrading other Jedi and a contest of who is the better Jedi and who is more "mature" or not etc etc.

It actually reminds me most of the episode of the "orville" recently where they visit an un-developed planet and everyone has these badges they wear. These badges have an up arrow and a down arrow, and anyone can click these arrows but yourself. So if you do a good deed and someone notices they can bump your arrow up and this improves your reputation. If you do something rude or mean they hit the down arrow and you loose this score. You can also get someones ID number and do it remotely over a phone app too so if something ends up in the news on TV as it did in this episode, millions of people can down vote you. Once you get to like negative 8 million or something you end up on a tv show with a chance to give your story and seek forgiveness and whatnot but if during the final vote phase you hit negative 10 million you get "reconditioned" which is something similar to shock therapy until you are not yourself anymore kinda thing.

The original issue is on the moderation itself, of which has been said multiple times in the last couple weeks in a few different threads a clear cut set of rules of conduct and also relating to moderation is being developed and the first drafts are actually done, hatter has done to my understanding an amazing job on it but also had some helpers, and it is currently under review of quite a few other members of various rank as well and when its agreed upon will get posted accordingly, until then it's not so clear cut and is still up to the interpretation of anyone who has moderation rights.

That being said EVERY moderation action CAN be reviewed, and as it has been said quite a few times as well those requests are done via formerly Private Message to any of the moderators or a Councillor. This act has NOT to my knowledge been done other then the creation of this public thread which is not the way it should have been done. Once this request is made a thread goes up in a private area of the forum with a copy paste of the requests, a link to the thread where the moderation took place any evidence of such and discussion starts then. It also usually filters over to the council chat which is connected to every council members phone so we are all very quick to be notified and begin discussing etc, which is a new improvement on things and pretty impressive. (We had a moderation request come in the other day and within about 15 minutes of that request a majority of the council was involved in discussion of it which was very impressive to me).

The request once reviewed is decided upon, in some cases reversed, in some cases reinforced, but more importantly learned from, grown from, evolved from, much like all of our experiences and lessons in our lives and our training wherever that may be. No one individual is infallible, here or anywhere else. So the whole Jedi maturity, lets loosely walk around who is holier then thou pissing contest that happens under the table and guise of a legitimate question and strive to look out for the "underdogs" and the "Jedi everywhere", or try and appear to be the "savior" can stop now...I vaguely remember a saying from someone that stated there wouldn't be any drama or problems if everyone would "Be a Jedi".

I feel like too many people worry about how their actions "look" and less on what are the appropriate actions period. A Jedi does not seek fame, does not seek glory, does not seek gratitude, does not seek to instill chaos. Your request Opie is totally legitimate, and is important to how you post I'm in full agreement, that's not even in debate. But I feel there are better ways to have done that then what has transpired. However its here, its done, lets ALL learn, grow, move forward shall we?

All that being said I will start the formal request for review on this point and we will proceed from there. In regards to the editing rights original question, the rules will be made more clear and more obvious here in the near future when those are done being revised and reviewed and made sure we have had plenty of different perspectives on it so that we have met the best interest of our community as well, and to be patient as a lot of big steps are going on at the council level and improvements to the training programs and a ton of other things that are in work and progress which like all things, takes time.

Flojade wrote: Sometimes people that have no knowledge the history can have a more objective perspective Ob1.

The objectivity that comes with being ignorant does not make up for the ignorance.

Knowing the specifics is not necessarily compulsory as all human conflicts emanate from the same patterns.

Knowing the specifics IS compulsory. In what domain of activity is it true that you can fix problems which you do not understand?

This might look reasonable to you if you are totally ignorant of the history. If you understand the history, this moment is Trump being absolutely ridiculous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTwmvi-6muA

Speaking of moderator abuse, Master Opie, how about the entire site you deleted with no way to recover it? Years of posts and discussions gone.

1.) There was a way to recover it actually. Ez-Board had a feature for Gold Boards at the time which backed-up forums and allowed you to restore everything with a click of a button. The fact that those in-charge chose not to disclose that information and instead played the 'Oh No! Everything is lost for good!!" angle is something they have to live with. So you know - Ignorance, yet Knowledge and all that. Might want to seek the whole story before assuming.
2.) In 2001 when this happened I was held accountable publicly and didn't earn back Administrator abilities for another four years. Action, Consequence. I have never hide from it. Never buried it. Never run from it. In fact it is a part of the training program at my site. So not sure your point? What that I know well the importance of Accountability of those in-charge? Indeed. I have been on all sides.

I was correctly moderated here. Our system worked.

lol Yes. After something was said. True.

strive to look out for the "underdogs" and the "Jedi everywhere"

It speaks volumes of a place that this is considered a tactic or guise. It astounds me the hypocrisy taking place in this reply alone. I had 100% forgotten the culture here. But You are absolutely right. Moving Forward. Moving On. Focus on what is important. 0123456789

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Flojade wrote: Sometimes people that have no knowledge the history can have a more objective perspective Ob1.

The objectivity that comes with being ignorant does not make up for the ignorance.

Knowing the specifics is not necessarily compulsory as all human conflicts emanate from the same patterns.

Knowing the specifics IS compulsory. In what domain of activity is it true that you can fix problems which you do not understand?

This might look reasonable to you if you are totally ignorant of the history. If you understand the history, this moment is Trump being absolutely ridiculous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTwmvi-6muA

Should his efforts be frowned upon because he's not "in the know" I don't think so, if anything it's a chance for everyone to cool heels and reflect before making a further ass out of themselves. Not only that, you having to remind him how he doesn't quite get it is derailing this thread, let's keep the topic on point peeps....

And i disagree with you too so neener neener. My head is cool, and my panties are un-bunched. How 'bout yours?

Should his efforts be frowned upon? No. But we have enough issues with people jumping into topics they dont understand. You want to let a new person form a bad habit, go ahead. Id rather point it out to him and hey maybe others will pick up the message too.

In a thread concerning editing rights and proper use of moderation, I'd rather not have to moderate people for getting personal. We have various and differing opinions, and we also clearly have varying levels of information concerning the past. And some of us just don't like each other. That is to be expected in a diverse and open forum such as this, but let's all be adults here and decide if our contributions are productive or just noise. If it is the latter, please consider saving it for a more appropriate time and place. Thanks.

In all due honesty, I don't even want to post in this thread, this is getting to be a constant repeating occurrence, and we're losing members as a result. When do we start becoming accountable for what we do and say? Is that a part of being a Jedi? This IS a Jedi Temple after all, is it not? I can only light so many fires under people's behinds before being viewed as an arsonist, and hated as a result...

This is a pm sent to me an hour ago, by a long time standing member. I won't post his name out of respect. His reference to myself as a councilor was of course pointing towards my time spent as an Advisor...

"Zenchi,

Thank you for your service as a Councillor and Knight. I am saddened, once again, by John's antics. I want to continually stress my point that the leadership of this site must focus on doing something about his behavior. Despite the amazing Knights who have recently been inducted into service, TOTJO will forever be a mediocre place as long as John has the ability to rip the spirit of the site apart from the inside.

Keep up the good work,
Hope to be able to come back someday,"

I get the fact that no one here is perfect, but if your going to continue sporting that master rank, than please try to act like you are deserving of it. Fake it till you make it?

It's instances like this that help shape the overall view the entire community has of us as a Temple, and right now we're not looking so hot. There has to come a time where we either learn from these mistakes and start to act accordingly, or we're throwing our hands up and shrugging because those in charge refuse to do anything to correct the problem, and if that is indeed the case, than we are not Jedi, but hypocrites...

Is this the instance where we finally admit to ourselves enough is enough? Is this the turning point where we decide to hold ourselves accountable? I sure n hells hope so.....

Zenchi wrote: In all due honesty, I don't even want to post in this thread, this is getting to be a constant repeating occurrence, and we're losing members as a result. When do we start becoming accountable for what we do and say? Is that a part of being a Jedi? This IS a Jedi Temple after all, is it not? I can only light so many fires under people's behinds before being viewed as an arsonist, and hated as a result...

This is a pm sent to me an hour ago, by a long time standing member. I won't post his name out of respect. His reference to myself as a councilor was of course pointing towards my time spent as an Advisor...

"Zenchi,

Thank you for your service as a Councillor and Knight. I am saddened, once again, by John's antics. I want to continually stress my point that the leadership of this site must focus on doing something about his behavior. Despite the amazing Knights who have recently been inducted into service, TOTJO will forever be a mediocre place as long as John has the ability to rip the spirit of the site apart from the inside.

Keep up the good work,
Hope to be able to come back someday,"

I get the fact that no one here is perfect, but if your going to continue sporting that master rank, than please try to act like you are deserving of it. Fake it till you make it?

It's instances like this that help shape the overall view the entire community has of us as a Temple, and right now we're not looking so hot. There has to come a time where we either learn from these mistakes and start to act accordingly, or we're throwing our hands up and shrugging because those in charge refuse to do anything to correct the problem, and if that is indeed the case, than we are not Jedi, but hypocrites...

Is this the instance where we finally admit to ourselves enough is enough? Is this the turning point where we decide to hold ourselves accountable? I sure n hells hope so.....

I agree on the importance of leaders setting the example. Exactly what do you think should be done, right now, that isnt being done?

What OB1 said ^^^

It is easy to criticize or point at bad behavior, but I haven't seen a viable solution to our ongoing woes that hasn't already been tried or at least discussed. If there was an easy answer, we would've done it by now and everything would be honky dory. The reality is, for now we are doing the best we can with what we're given.

I also feel like it is important to point out that constantly saying we are "losing members" as a direct result of certain things occurring here is not always accurate, and our growing member total would say otherwise. We may lose some members that are friends of ours that we think are important, but there are new members coming here and contributing great things to this Temple every day. We cannot project the displeasure of those who choose to leave onto everyone here. It isn't fair. People will find the place that is right for them, and we will continue to do our very best to make this one of those places, but let's not pretend like we chase people off with torches and pitchforks because we don't. We're not perfect, but we're trying.

The irony of the PM mentioned above is that I received one just like it from the same person (assuming because of the very similar wording) and it comes from someone who I consider to be an upstanding Jedi and excellent member of this community whether he/she practices it in these halls or not. The fact they this person took a moment to express a their desire to see things change for the better here will tell you that the situation is not as hopeless as some would have them sound.

In case it got missed

Added additional emphasis for the part that probably needs the most consideration based on what I've observed the last few months.

Avalon wrote: I would also like to point out that situations like this can be avoided and minimized by the establishment of and respect towards a clear line of duties, responsibilities, and rights to the leadership roles of the site, by all members of leadership and consequences therein...

Maybe something to consider discussing in that whole Pax Templi thing you guys are working on behind the scenes or something similar.