Oath of Confidence

steamboat28 wrote: I'm serious, Jestor.

You're right when you say we don't know what you have done or how hard you've worked to accommodate people.

So believe me when I say you have no concept of how hard I have worked to keep people in this Temple.

At any given point, at least half of my clerical ministry is convincing members that TOTJO actually cares about them, that they are actually welcome here, and that we do value their presence. That the nonsense that gets spouted by well-regarded members of this church (including Synod and Council members) is just poorly worded and not actually dismissive. That there are actually people in positions of power that care whether or not they continue their membership here.

And I'm getting really tired of feeling like I'm lying because of responses like this one, and your and Cabur's apparent tones in the other thread.

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Sorry...

You are not lying, you are correct in that we do care...

And, I don understand how much people (like yourself) do work behind the scenes, I really do...

For some, the work is second nature, sometimes, it really is work... And, the line is blurry...

After some rereading of Rickie's post, I think I misunderstood it as well...Rickie's actual point, was addressed to my comment that Edan quoted, and then Rickie responded......

Then, Rickie was 'paraphrasing what I said, as to mean "quit whining"...

Then, he said, "Why, what are you afraid of", and if my stance had a reasoning of fear behind it...

Again, and no shit as I say this, "words are the issue here"... They mean a whole lot less than folks give them credit for...

Not understanding what Rickie was saying, you and Snowy, quoted him, and thinking he is expressing the sentiment of telling people to quit whining, as opposed to him (not attacking, but, something) me and my point as that was actually what I was saying...

Its the IDEA, that is important... the fact that Rickie is agreeing that we should not say "quit whining".. so, does this make more sense?

If they want something, then yes, they may decide to meet the criteria to meet the eligibility... lol...[/color]

{Are you Jestor saying:}That's all. That's all there there is.... Sorry, but quit whining.{?}

{WHY?} What!?? What are you afraid of? If you are confident and proud I don't see an issue. If you are weak then I do.

Get in touch with yourself and find peace within. Be happy.

This may not be popular but contentment is found within.

I just said in council, "that all of these concerns have been handled on a day to day basis since I started, why do we need to post them?" refer people to the people who deal with it...

We are not assholes, and not willing to change, but, I get a name change a week sometimes, and, who doesnt feel there reason for anything isnt valid? Who am I to 'lay down the law'? Well, except the guy ask to do that, as my office, not me personally... You all dont see me question myself in council, or via PM to my confidants and advisors...

If someone has an issue with an oath, application, something, ask me (membership affairs, thats the job).... Instead of people getting all worked up, and putting people (me/council) on the defense, ask me privately if I can help you...

I feel like so many times, these threads are trying to fix things that are not broke...

And , by the time I can get here to tell someone to answer me, 15 post have been made where "council ought to do this' and 'council ought to do that', and what you dont know, is council is already doin it...

But, if Steamboat wanted something done privately, why in the sam hell would I post about it? Then everyone would know that it isnt really him, and he may be a criminal, or have something to hide? "Well, my stuff is public, I want mine private too", and on and on...

And, as for us dismissing people thoughts with "yea, we have discussed it', we continue to discuss things, but, for some arguments, such as, uh, what the wording of the oath, we have discussed it till we are blue i the face, and we will read these suggestions, but, that doesnt mean we will act upon them...

We have already, through many people (we included the knights in the last round of discussion), beat this horse... The 'oath wording' horse...

I dont care what wording we use, personally... I am following my path regardless...

But, the totjo organization says this is what is 'legal', fine... Im good with that... I am not asking for a bunch of requirements for my joining, who am I to request this? I am just some guy on the internet, and I have the right to not fill that out... If I wasnt, good with it, I would find an organization that I was ok with the 'terms and conditions", lol... Take what I can use, and move on...

AND Im not saying these things shouldnt be revisited, but, understand, many of these points were brought up by others in the past, and there has been no NEED for change... It is not a case of "its always been this way', its a case of "it is this way, because we have not fund a better way in our opinion." We always scrutinize our selves and actions, not to mention these type of threads...

No offense, Jestor, but why on earth would anyone ask you privately for that kind of aid if they've seen any of your "losing my cool" rants about any given subject?

Your tone does not transfer as well through text as you may believe, and sometimes you come off as downright hateful in public threads about common questions or concerns from the membership.

We have to remember that:

1. Not everyone knows what's been discussed before. Many things--like the 47284820483 threads on marijuana--should be compiled into a section of the FAQ that links back to discussions
2. Outside of threads like this, there is very little feedback on concerns like this in any public fashion. We all know the Council speaks Entish at meetings, taking their time, being slowly outpaced by herds of frightened turtles stampeding through peanut butter, and that there are very valid reasons for that. But, very often, the silence of the Council while they discuss things makes it seem like it's either not a concern, or ignoring the concerns of those who brought it up.
3. We primarily speak in a text-based fashion with one another, a medium which does not transfer tone, so we have to be that much more particular about what we say and how we say it. That's why I'm always on about how "words mean things." When I'm an ass, it's at least 80% intentional. When other people come off that way, it's very common for them not to even realize they are doing so.

Someone the other day said it best, I think: "Everyone at the Temple is tired." And not in ways that sleep can fix. The way we handle our concerns, the way we choose to address the concerns of people we may not have ever even spoken to, all of these things affect the Temple. Usually negatively, in my experience.

There are a lot of problems with this place, problems I'd like to see fixed. But the primary one that I've had to deal with in my tenure here is people feeling like they don't matter, or like their concerns aren't important, or that nobody would care if they left. Feelings almost exclusively attributed to higher-ranking or wrll-respected Temple members.

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Let me attempt to explain myself. I'm really not trying to rock the boat but to have a discussion. note the smile

If they want something, then yes, they may decide to meet the criteria to meet the eligibility...

The whining statement is direct toward those don't want to meet the criteria and are beating the subject to death. IMHO

That's the way it is. I accept that. I'm not whining, I hope, through I express an opinion and again, I hope, not obsessively.

My compassion. Many think so, I think so, I try very had to be compassionate but have my flawed human limits and sometimes just have to say "kiss my butt once in a while." note the smile Peace

Someone the other day said it best, I think: "Everyone at the Temple is tired." And not in ways that sleep can fix. The way we handle our concerns, the way we choose to address the concerns of people we may not have ever even spoken to, all of these things affect the Temple. Usually negatively, in my experience.

I think it goes in cycles...

yea, I could buy that, lol...

There are a lot of problems with this place, problems I'd like to see fixed. But the primary one that I've had to deal with in my tenure here is people feeling like they don't matter, or like their concerns aren't important, or . Feelings almost that nobody would care if they left exclusively attributed to higher-ranking or wrll-respected Temple members.

Because, and here I will sound like an ass again, that because people forget, it is not about them, totjo (council, clergy, knights, membership, members) is/are trying to help as many as possible... And, idk if everyone is aware, but, we cannot help everyone... Some wont accept it, no matter how hard we chase them... Some, dont realize that 'help' is making them a bit less sensitive to 'words'... :blink:

It is about us all...

And, only a few are having any issues....

Just as you feel ganged up on, its how I feel... I see no other knights agreeing, no council, so why am I bothering? lol...

And, excuse my tough love approach here, the reason that "that nobody would care if they left" because no one leaving here, myself and Br. John included, will cause totjo to stop... Individually, we are unimportant, and some want to be important... Special, noticed, appreciated, whatever... :whistle:

Some, like you and me, and others, work in the back ground, just doing our thing... trying to help as best we can...

Im not offended, lol, and I find your statement kind of ironic? :lol:

( I put some smiley there, does that help translate my emotions better?

steamboat28 wrote: No offense, Jestor, but why on earth would anyone ask you privately for that kind of aid if they've seen any of your "losing my cool" rants about any given subject?

Hate to say it, Jestor, but steam's right on the money. This is exactly why I was hesitant about asking you to remove three letters and a space from my name (remember, I brought it up late last summer but didn't actually do it until this year.) It's also why if I need help of that sort in the future, it's going to go through someone else. I like you, but you're clearly not happy doing these things.

If you're in a position of authority, a position where you serve other people, and it makes you miserable or resentful, you either ought to resign or find ways of changing things so that you're not miserable or resentful. To do otherwise is a disservice to yourself and the people you serve.

I think "Overworked" is a more appropriate word here than "miserable" or "resentful" Just my thoughts....... :whistle:

Adi wrote:

steamboat28 wrote: No offense, Jestor, but why on earth would anyone ask you privately for that kind of aid if they've seen any of your "losing my cool" rants about any given subject?

Hate to say it, Jestor, but steam's right on the money. This is exactly why I was hesitant about asking you to remove three letters and a space from my name (remember, I brought it up late last summer but didn't actually do it until this year.) It's also why if I need help of that sort in the future, it's going to go through someone else. I like you, but you're clearly not happy doing these things.

If you're in a position of authority, a position where you serve other people, and it makes you miserable or resentful, you either ought to resign or find ways of changing things so that you're not miserable or resentful. To do otherwise is a disservice to yourself and the people you serve.

NO, no, not a problem...

First off, there was some, forum issues, surrounding that time I believe, yes? Complaints being made about a certain member... You wanting to quit, and I think we taked a bit on it, yes?

Obviously I (like so many) are not everyone's cup of tea...

I love doing a reality check for myself... :0

I believe, that yes, some people have a issue with me, but there I have helped way more than I have not helped... even with your hesitancy of me, I did not deny your username, and made you jump throughno more hoops than anyone esle...

Trisskar didnt wanna jump through them a year ago either, but, things change...

I wonder if maybe you felt some prejudice, but, Ive never had a complaint with you, Im just a little 'confidant...

But, I am willing to say Im blind to my own faults...

Sure would like some specifics though...

I guess I can conduct a poll? maybe?

Jestor wrote: First off, there was some, forum issues, surrounding that time I believe, yes? Complaints being made about a certain member... You wanting to quit, and I think we taked a bit on it, yes?

I did in fact leave this community for a time and eventually came back. The first time I mentioned the name change was after I returned. The hoops were no deterrent for me, it was the implication that it would mean more unnecessary work for you, which you have publicly stated your disdain for.

I like you, I've never had a "prejudice" against you (on the contrary, you've always been one of the people whose name I'm happiest to see in a forum thread), but you have always had an aura of "not wanting to deal with this shit." I don't think you should be so concerned with how other people view you as with how much your role impacts yourself. The easiest mistake a leader can make is doing it all himself. From my point of view, you don't seem happy doing what you're doing. So why do it? Why not delegate more things to other people?

I extended an offer to you to volunteer and help out, since I have no job and no shortage of free time, but it was met with silence. Is it because I am neither an apprentice nor a knight? Need I jump through hoops just in order to help you/other people in this community jump through less?

Trisskar wrote: I think "Overworked" is a more appropriate word here than "miserable" or "resentful" Just my thoughts....... :whistle:

It looks very similar on paper. And people don't like to hassle the already-hassled.

Jestor wrote: Trisskar didnt wanna jump through them a year ago either, but, things change... [/color]

Disclaimer: I have a feeling I am going to fall into Musing Mode here and might not convey what I want to convey...properly. I apologize if that is the case...I will try to be clear...

It is not that I didn't want to jump through hoops. Hoops are jumped through all the time. I had to at Jediism.org. I had to at the Jediism Way. I had to at many other Jedi sites. Hoop hopping is expected to get to where you want and to be respected at said location

However....to me....I feel that said Hoop Hopping should have a directive purpose and not some wishy washy vauge-ness. Which is how these Oaths feel here at the Temple.

In this and other related threads already several Knights have told me that A: These Oaths are made for offices not even developed or fully laid out/structured and B: These Oaths are generalities to nothing in particular than what you yourself choose to make of them.

A: If you don't have offices clearly defined or structured.....why do you have oaths for them? That is like saying "OH Divine Force (God) I will serve you!! I have no idea how or why but by The holy power invested in me...I will!! Blind Loyalty? As Jedi and seekers of Knowledge...I feel this goes against the path of Jedi...We should not be spewing out Oaths just because. Oaths should be clear, concise and direct in purpose.

B: If they are going to be so generalized and individualistic....why not just allow the member to create their own thus making it more meaningful / spiritual to them.

Yea....I get it. Its alot of work to go over every oath submitted but that begs the question.....Why are so many making said oaths so soon in their path? A large chunk of the work would be relieved if the Simple Oath was removed or no longer made Mandatory.

Suggestion? Have the teachers instruct their students to create their own oath as a self reflecting exercise instead of a parroted copy and pasted post for the sake of "Hoop Hopping."

Anyways....

I still have my reservations I still dislike some of those hoops you mentioned....I did not change my stance and belief...I simply reached a point in my life where I can entertain, suggest, muse and participate better than I once could. If in the process I can one day be of service ..... Then, I have at least done something in my years here

Im just talking...

There is no right and wrong in all this, only how we all see things...

I see a blue dress, you see a white dress... lol...

in the end, no matter who a person is, you are right, no one should be treated rudely...

And, also no matter what, we shouldnt be offended at every little thing either...

I guess we all still have work to do, lolololol....

This spoiler stuff is just me having a conversation and analyzing... I do this or my own actions (as I am aware of them) and for everything else... I m brutally honest with myself (I feel about everything) except perhaps [strike]how handsome I am[/strike], er, my weight issues...

Jestor wrote: Quite likely, I ask that you greet people... This is the most helpful thing here, yet fewer people do it, than those who ask me how to help... Crazy, huh? Hopefully, you took my advice...

[...]

Because we do like people who have spent a lot of time to be the ones doing things... But, like the young man at my work, he doesnt want all the little detail jobs, he wants the high action/profile jobs, so do many others, lol...

Gotta earn the other jobs by showing you want to really help those you are helping, and not as a "see me" type thing... Just in general, not saying that is you...

Certainly. But greeting people is not the work you complain about having too much of to do. Read what I said again: I never asked to do "look at me" kind of volunteer work. I said I have no job and an abundance of free time, and in the context of our discussion (being overworked), that I can help with that if you want. Nothing more. I actually prefer not to do "visible" kind of work, as just about any place I've volunteered with IRL can attest. I prefer to go unnoticed. Recognition is not what I seek. To do good is what I seek. Simply knowing that I've done that is a million times better than any reward or recognition anyone else could ever give me.

Person A comes to me with a request, never met this person, dont know anything about them, they have only lurked for a bit...

Person B, has been here a while, had some troubles, reported a person, been reported by people not all bad, just that they were having some trouble, normal life stuff, a few things maybe that required some intervention, but noting terrible... Ask for a lot of favors, needed several name changes, or just been a controversial person in the forum... (not one person, pick some characteristics)...

I know that you're basically talking about me as "Person B," and while I'm going to go ahead and say that you're grossly mischaracterizing and misremembering things... you want to know who I'd be more on guard about? Person A. I know nothing about them. Person A could be a complete psychopath. They could also be a saint. At least with Person B, I know what I'm getting into and know that they clearly need help. I know what setting to put my phaser on already. Person A is a blank slate and could be anything. I believe in people's inherent goodness, but I've seen "Person As" go bad quickly.

Just as I have folks who hesitate to contact me, you and Steamboat do too, (well all do, but we seem to be monopolizing the conversation, lol), and if you were in my position, what would you do?

People hesitate to contact me? This is an interesting fact. I was not aware any people had a reason to want to contact me at all. I'm inconsequential. On the margins, at best. I am, as I explained in the thread about people feeling unimportant here, unimportant. Really. If someone wants to prove me wrong, they're welcome to do so, but until then, I am dubious about this assertion. Sorry.

If there was a loud cry for my resignation, i would... I promise...

No one has called for it. I'm glad you serve us in the capacity you do. But I said in my other post, if the work you do makes you miserable enough to lash out at people and say you're "losing your cool" because of them, why do it? That's not really fair to them, and that's not really fair to you. And it's not other people you should be most worried about in that case, it's yourself.

Jestor wrote: This comes with age for us all... lol...[/color]

Ugggg....Don't I know it... lol

....it the best we had at the time...

Re-quoting You - "....but, things change... "

Id say alot has changed since the past and from what I have seen a good number of folks have asked for change in the Simple Oath.

Just sayin

I feel that Teachers can better monitor Students with meaningful Reflections than Administration can monitor Initiate parroted oaths.

Anyways! I have said my peace. I just wanted to clear up my part as was mentioned. Change comes, but not over night! *bows*