What is it like to feel gender?

Why are we talking about sex characteristics when the thread is about what it is to FEEL gender. 

Sex (biological or otherwise) = gender. 

If a 25 year old woman woke up in the body of a man, they'd still be the woman they were, just stuck in a body that is perceived by society differently. You'd start being called sir, expected to do manual labour tasks that previously you'd be glancedly overlooked for, and (as many trans men have noticed) suddenly be hit by the overwhelmingly crushing lonliness men experience because of our largely patriarchal society. You're also suddenly expected to dress certain ways, clothes are made to display what your gender role in society is, even if that isn't what you are. 

None of this has anything to do with puberty, muscle mass, or bone structure. 

What is it to feel gender? Well, its to feel what it is that brings you joy and comfort in how you're perceived in society. I LOVE being called cutie. If suddenly people started calling me handsome, or manly, I'd probably feel my skin start crawling. 

I think this may be where the different tangents this conversation has taken might all come back together.

There are a lot of different sex characteristics. Physical structure, reproductive organs, hormone levels, brain chemistry (the part the really gets to how it feels), etc. All of these come together to form gender identity. I agree that the brain chemistry component (which really impacts our emotions/personality/interests/how we interact with the world far more than any of those other characteristics) kind of got dropped off the conversation. I mostly was responding to topics being raised, so thank you for bringing this back around to the original topic.

It's interesting to note also that children start becoming aware of gender around age 2, and usually have a pretty solidified sense of gender by age 4. (This is why a lot of kids might explore traditionally "boy" things and traditionally "girl" things around those age ranges. They are essentially exploring gender, finding out what they like and what group they fit into the most. While many kids are probably aware of physical differences like reproductive organs, certainly not all are and even those who are don't really register those as important at that age so the gender identity is much more formed by personality and interests, the things children at that age are actually interacting with and relating to. (It's also important to note here that is said "usually" have a pretty solidified sense of gender. Some people have gender norms drilled into them very young and don't really do this exploring until later in life when it feels more safe to do so).

There has definitely been a surge of young people identifying as trans, particularly compared to previous generations. For a while there was a legitimate fear that it was a fad or that kids were deciding they were trans because it was the "in" thing, but the numbers have pretty much leveled out at around 1.5% of the population now across both Gen Z and Gen Alpha. The surge was largely attributed to children who had identified as a different gender than they were assigned at birth but were in previous generations told that wasn't allowed. They were what was on their birth certificate and that's the end of the conversation. (Many of these individuals across all generations are now also starting to come out as transgender, but much more slowly, sitting at around 0.5%). Now, because many parents are more supportive of kids being the gender they identify as, many of these young children who identify as a different gender than they were assigned at birth as they get older and find out that society does not perceive them as the same gender they perceive themselves then bring up the conversation about transitioning (usually not with that sophisticated language of course, usually it's more like "but I'm a boy, how do I get everyone else to see that?").

It is worth noting, however, that I am not in that 0.5-1.5%, so not having personal experience, I am speaking through experiences I've heard from others, but mostly through statistics and scientific research on the subject, not personal experience. I can't really speak to what it feels like to identify as a different gender than assigned. For me, there are moments when I don't feel as masculine as it seems I should, and I wouldn't mind being able to dress in a way that lets my personality show a little more (as men don't really accessorize beyond a tie which has largely fallen out of use for all but the most formal events). Otherwise, though, I'm a pretty stereotypical man. I do catch myself mansplaining on occasion. (I try to be aware of when I'm sharing details that I genuinely have some unique perspective or insight on, but I do on occasion catch my self explaining things that is completely obvious to everyone, oblivious to the fact that I'm basically talking down to people by doing so). I am somewhat clueless on a lot of the same things men tend to be clueless about. My friends and I were chatting the other night. The women in the group were asking what kind of shampoo I use. My answer: uh, something that says shampoo?. The other guy in the group said: soap? water? When asked what kind of conditioner I used, I just shook my head. The women at the table seemed semi-horrified that I wasn't using conditioner and kind of lectured me on the importance of it. I'm not as interested in sports and cars as some men and more interested in meditation and internal introspection than most men (I suspect that last part of that sentence is true of most men within the Temple), and I'm in a profession that is probably 90% women. Still, if I were to think about what gender I feel like it wouldn't take any thought at all to answer that I feel like a man. That's who I am. If I were to suddenly transition to a woman's body, I would feel out of place.

A lot of times I think we don't really acknowledge how a certain thing feels when it's the default. It's only when it stands out as unique that we really stop to think about that. I imagine gender is the same way. If we feel like the gender that we are assigned, if all of our sex characteristics (physical structure, reproductive organs, hormone levels, personality, etc.) all line up, then there isn't much to think about. I'm just a guy and that's kind of all there is to it. When those don't line up, when who we are and the body we inhabit are mismatched or when we lie somewhere in the middle of the spectrum instead of clearly at one end or the other, than we become much more aware of how that feels. The greater level of introspection to find out who we really are almost becomes required to figure out who we are because it isn't as obvious as it is for others.

I have to acknowledge, too, that if I were called "cute" I'd probably recoil pretty strongly. I remember when I ran a department next to the receiving area one of my female employees walked back to receiving area as they were getting in a bunch of multicolored duct tape. One of the receiving workers told her, "Do NOT say the c-word!" As a couple other guys looked confused, she exclaimed in the most girly voice she could muster "CUUUUUTE!" just to annoy him. That anecdote still amuses me. Hopefully it brings a little levity to this otherwise deep conversation without taking it off track.

I think often "bad people" create traumas that cause us to no longer be attracted to anyone who is remotely like "that person". Therefore if women have traumatically bad experiences with men it may be possible for them to be more attracted to other women by default because they are either consciously or subconsciously avoiding men out of fear. And we know from prison culture that sexuality is more fluid if you are cut off from the opposite sex. So if a person constructs such a mental prison out of fear, cutting themselves off from the opposite gender, then that leaves the same gender. Likewise, traumatic events with the same gender or with "bad people parents" could, in my opinion, lead a person to reject their own gender, especially if they were pressured to be a certain kind of man or woman. Parent's often make the mistake of trying to mold their children into little versions of themselves or their aspirations which doesn't always fit the child.

At the same time, many children are triggered into non-conformity in general and therefore seek out ways to not conform as a rebellion against societal norms.

Yes, gender characteristics are a coin flip. However, I do think what people are rejecting is the idea that physical characteristics = gender. And I think this comes from emotional feelings of rejection. They don't want to be their gender because of something that, perhaps even unique to them, that gender identity has come to represent. But this doesn't mean everyone should run from what they are. And I have even seen black people bleach their skin in order to appear to be white. I find this very sad because no matter what you feel about who you are or what physical trait you have... EVERYTHING that makes you... you... there is and cannot be anything wrong with it. I feel like by allowing everyone to be whatever gender they want, we're actually not even seeing how many people are simply hurting in their own self-identity to the point that they are willing to either dress differently or physically alter themselves just to feel like a different person. But if you truly love yourself... perhaps, many people who identify as trans would learn to accept who/what they are. And even in the case of trauma... Yes we now have the technology but that doesn't mean we should use it to change nature. Because we're behaving like there is no cost outside of money. But there is always a cost and that is why there is balance in the universe.

My question for trans people would be this? 
1. Why do you not want to be your birth-assigned gender?
2. Why do you want to be the other gender?
3. Did you suffer a traumatic event?

1) Because I'm not it. 

2) I'm not trying to be another gender. I'm trying to be MY gender. 

3) Yeah, being forced to undergo the wrong puberty. Why does gender orientation have to have anything to do with trauma? Don't try diagnosing us when you're not a gender specialist. 

I am actually disgusted a 'Jedi' would have such hateful attitude towards trans people. Go read the homepage here again. 

" I want to be careful here because the object isn't to offend anyone."

Proceeds to call trans people BS. Good job 'jedi'. 

I’m locking this thread temporarily for review. Complaints of rule violations have been made. I’ll unlock it after my review is complete

Thread is unlocked…..the offending post has been deleted…..please be respectful of eachother. I’m all for people stating their personal opinions, but not if that means attacking others. Be Jedi!

We may have different definitions of "hate" and I can make room for that; however, by any definition I'd use I don't personally have any hatred towards those wanting, for whatever reason, to be something other than what they were born as. I had no idea anyone would react so strongly to these questions and so they weren't designed to provoke hostility. I can only say that I'm sorry if anyone was unintentionally offended.

It's unfortunate that we're losing a perspective on this issue that may have offered some insight. However, let's not jump to conclusions and imagine we know each other's feelings. In fact, that's the very reason for asking questions rather than making personal assertions.

The point I was trying to get to is how can a person know they are not what they are? And by saying what they are... I'm not trying to negate how a person FEELS. However, how a person feels may be the opposite of what they are. At what point do we have to say that a boy who feels like a girl... *IS* a girl? And how do they know that they feel like girls if they really don't know how a girl feels? And is feeling like a girl, therefore, based on some means of trying to identify certain feelings with femininity? Or is feeling like a girl simply not feeling like a guy? And what does feeling like a guy feel like? That goes to the basic premise of this thread.

The only way you can really speak on what it feels like to be a guy is to first "be a guy". If you are a guy speaking from experience then it's because that's what you are. To say you don't want to be that is fine but the only way you can say you don't want to be that is to first know what it is you don't want to be. So whatever reason that is, must include some 'knowledge of' being that gender. This is not an attack and shouldn't be taken as such. Just like having been born as that is also not an attack. And let me restate, once more, that people are allowed to feel however they want. I actually never called BS on every single person who identifies differently from their birth. Rather, I'm calling BS on judging genders according to whatever negative biases and gender-based stereotypes which could potentially make a person want to reject that gender.

I cannot speak on being a girl but I have no reason not to believe that being a girl is great because girls are fantastic and wonderful. But it's also easy to get stuck on negative thinking and start associating something that is awesome and great with a bad experience or with experiences that were the result of conflict with bad people. The grass is always greener on the other side is a very deep saying because until you truly have that other experience you can't really know if it's better than your own. It just seems like it has to be better from the perspective of the side we're on. 

Note: This post was written last week, but as I was writing it, additional posts were made and the thread was eventually locked. That's to say that I might be responding to some points that were in now-removed posts. I did go back and try to edit it for clarity as much as possible.



If I'm understanding your assertions correctly, you are basically saying that in your view the only way for a person to be trans is as a result of mental health issues and that being trans is just a mental health problem. (If I'm misreading that, please do correct me on that). This is also the main reason I keep coming back to this argument and am trying to explain the biology of it. Perpetuating the belief that being trans gender is a mental illness helps perpetuate discrimination (both microaggressions and blatant acts of discrimination) that make functioning in our society such a challenge for trans gender individuals and create high levels of suicide, disability, homelessness, etc.. As I previously mentioned these issues disappear when trans gender people are supported and live in areas where anti bullying and anti-discrimination policies are in place showing that the disability and mental illness among trans gender individuals are the result of how others in society treat them, not some internal issue.

I think your coin flip analogy highlights the disconnect with what I'm trying to say: It is NOT a simple coin flip. It is at the very least a series of dozens of coin flips that all add up to land somewhere on a spectrum. There are many, many different characteristics that work together to form gender. The fact that people are rejecting the idea that physical characteristics = gender is because those two are not the same. Physical characteristics are one piece of gender, the piece that's easiest to identify from the outside and so becomes the piece of gender that is used to assign sex at birth, but this is not a person's gender. A gender is a compilation of many characteristics some physically measurable and many not. For a person whose physical characteristics do not match their other characteristics, should they reject everything that makes them who they are in order to conform to the physical characteristics they were born with? Is it more important to accept that one physical characteristic than to accept anything else that makes a person who they are?

What I'm gathering from you is that your perspective is trans gender people are running from who they are and not accepting who they really are. I feel pretty confident in saying that most if not all transgender people would tell you it's the opposite. They are learning to accept who they really are despite society trying to reduce them and their entire identity to a single characteristic which doesn't align with anything else about them. Trans gender people also aren't trying to gain some advantage that they perceive the other gender has. The challenges of being transgender in our society are so, so, so much worse than any sort of advantage one might gain by going to the other side of the fence as it were. Not the least of those is the challenge of having other people constantly tell them that their experience and understanding of who they are is BS because it doesn't match the perspective of someone else. Normally I would probably harp on harm that is caused by transgender people (or any minority group) when people continue to make dismissive, belittling, or hurtful comments about them because those microaggressions add up. I've tried to avoid going down that track here more than necessary because I also think it's important to have honest dialog where possible. Just shutting people down and saying "that's hateful, how dare you say that" can get in the way of growth and understanding, so I want to clarify I'm not saying don't speak freely in this conversation, but I do want to raise awareness of the harm microaggressions and negative comments can have, especially as they add up.

(It seems that there has been some conversation about this in the background and others have been less patient with those microaggressions in this conversation. For what it’s worth, Oxford Dictionary defines hate speech as “abusive or threatening speech or writing that expresses prejudice on the basis of ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, or similar grounds.” Words that express prejudice on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity do fall under that definition even if the words weren’t said with malice or hatred. Someone expressing prejudice with or without hatred in their heart is still creating an environment where people are being shown they are unwelcome because of who they are.)

In response to a comment you made (possibly in the now deleted post), I also think it's important to note that kids are a lot less rebellious today than they have been in some generations (surprisingly, that's actually been the subject of research). They still push boundaries especially when they are little, but when those boundaries push back, they generally accept them. When they absolutely refuse to let a boundary push back and are clearly not just testing those boundaries, there's a reason. Teenagers do their own thing, but it's less out of a rejection of their parents (like it was in the 70s) and more a complete apathy. If their ideas match their parents, great, if not, who cares they'll do their thing anyway. The age where most kids begin discussing becoming transgender is actually in the block between those two, when kids are generally cooperative. Many transgender kids are very well behaved and well-adjusted and are overall great kids. They just recognize that their own gender identity doesn't match the sex they were assigned at birth. It's not a rejection of something or running towards something or a reaction to a traumatic event. It's more commonly expressed as, "This is just who I am. I didn't choose it, it just is."

Thinking of gender as an absolute binary of a single physical characteristic when it's a far, far more complex topic can lead us to incorrect conclusions. I think that underlies a lot of the last several pages of this conversation. There's an incorrect assumption or understanding that gender is a remarkably simplistic dichotomy of a singular physical detail.

I will agree that a small minority of transgender people may indeed be reacting to trauma or trying to run away from or toward something. This is a small minority, though, and does not reflect the typical situation. As for your three questions, I think the third question can have some merit if there are red flags (and if I recall correctly that's actually reflected in the clinical guidelines in the case where there is reasonable concern that this might be a factor). Your first two questions really are the same question, or at least would have the same answer for the vast majority of transgender people. They also reflect an underlying assumption that they are either running away from or toward something. I found a list of questions suggested by a website on transgender resources that I think dig for the same kind of information you are looking for but ask it in a less confrontational/accusatory way:

• How long have you been feeling this way?
• What started you thinking about it? Did something happen?
• What made you tell me now? Did something change?
• Have you been talking to anyone else about these feelings?
• How did you learn about transgender people?
• Are you thinking of changing your name and/or the pronouns people use to refer to you?
• Where do you see yourself on the gender spectrum?
• What do you want to change now to express your preferred gender? What would you like to change in the future?

These questions help identify if there was a specific event contributing to a child deciding they are trans, if it's just a momentary fad/peer pressure/rebellion or a long held perspective, and what the person's idea of gender is as well as what they are specifically wanting.

I don't recall saying "mental illness". I think that idea exists and therefore I cannot fault anyone for thinking I might be coming from that same position. However, that is not the case. Reactions using that assumption can also be prejudicial because it presupposes a bias that must be confronted. 

So let me clarify further... I am a programmer by job and that desire has merged with my self-identity so I identify as a programmer. I also have the experiences of a programmer that reinforce that identity. However, that identity is forged by me as a product of my mind, rather than any outside universal dictate. I could say I "FEEL" like a programmer, but I can't claim to be that without actually having that experience. 

As a programmer, I don't think of everything concerning the mind as a mental health issue because that phrasing generally invokes ideas of "mental health" in a negative context. Why? Because we only focus on what's going on in the mind when we think something is wrong. But that negative association is a product of what? Of the mind. It's not reality therefore for its "BS". Again... not calling BS on "thinking" but rather the fallacy of NEGATIVE THINKING / judgement... as a default. It's not fair to mental health to ignore the spectrum of everything that is GOOD... in order automatically assume that if "mental" is mentioned we must be lauching some kind of insult or attack. That assumption is based on society and popular culture which makes it more difficult to have an honest discussion about it.

As a programmer, to me these are not negative things unless they are unfair or "misrepresent" the whole (which is the spectrum). As far as male and female, these are opposite polarities on a spectrum. We are all on that spectrum but we are the spectrum. It's an (viral) idea that it's binary. I grew up with tomboys and even married one. I also grew up around toxic masculinity and I was aware of the toxic nature even then. And I saw boys almost competing with each other because, in a sense, they were judging each other on a toxic scale where the least masculine would be the most respectful to women. What makes me balanced is not because I am consistently displaying the same "genderfied" mannerisms. It's because I embrace me simply doing my own thing which balances out to be ME, representing myself and the spectrum. I remember being self-conscious of how my hands were sitting on my waist playing basketball because where I came from if you had your hands one way it was feminine. That's "BS" but as an individual, I think most feel powerless to question the source. It's only when you stop thinking about it... stop being conscious of the supposed differences... stop checking yourself... stop thinking "am I this or that", that you are no longer running from yourself and simply accepting yourself for who and what you are. You. 

Everyone has a unique experience as a representative of the whole of human consciousness and human experience. We should not measure ourselves by someone else's experience or the experience we believe them to be having. Only by such measurement can you really say what you are and are not. But to guage where you are compared to another point on the spectrum, you have to imagine to know what that experience is like. When I question myself I'm attacking myself on behalf of a societal or community  standard that I have injested and absorbed like food. To me, again, this is not positive or negative. The food we injest is only as positive or negative as what our bodies need. So being exposed to viral programming and choosing from the programs/ideas to accept and incorporate into our mental Operating System, is not inherently negative and shouldn't automatically taken as an attack or discrimination. Rather, acceptance of ideas is how we all learn and grow mentally. And like a plant, if your mind gets nutrients it's going to use them and be influenced by them. 

In some cases, can it be a mental health "problem?" Sure. In any population, the larger the population the more you're going to see different cases within its membership. The more people there are the higher the probability that at least some of them are going to be ignorant, attractive, smart, funny, etc.. When I was young I met a guy in Canada who was diagnosed with schizophrenia because my aunt took care of a number of patients in their multi-family housing complex on behalf of the government. He told us this vivid elaborate story about his experience as a young prince in a love affair with another young prince. It was fascinating because of how real it was to him. This isn't meant to stigmatize him because of his diagnosis but rather to point out how powerful the human mind is. We can even load up different personalities that we're inspired by just like Neo. But when Neo does it, does it have a negative context? No. Because he's a programmer who is choosing it. It's therefore only potentially a mental health issue when that choice is hijacked like a computer being hijacked by a virus. 

In my head, there is a whole science to what I call "PSIONIX" which I personally define as "mental programming" where ideas are basically like computer code and variables and they can be viral and accepted as such. And in 2023 we don't look at everything "viral" to be a negative thing. A positive news story can "go viral". So how a person programs or reprograms themselves and how that programming is accepted, rejected or reinforced by society... the interplay/conflict between the individual and collective is fascinating to me.

(also... the questions were rather rhetorical to anyone actually answering which would be a bad idea because it would only invite public speculation about a specific person but I didn't make that abundantly clear)

While I disagree with the programmer analogy because that is something external, an identity gained through experience and external events as opposed to inherent qualities within a person, the operating system might make for an interesting analogy.

If you install Windows on an old Mac, is it really still a Mac? From the outside it certainly looks like a Mac and has the physical characteristics of a Mac, but if you treat it like a Mac and try to interact with it like it's a Mac, you're going to have problems because fundamentally despite physical appearances, it is not a Mac. It's a PC (I'm using PC as a stand in for a computer with Windows on it here for simplification). In the case of human biology, the operating system is installed during fetal development and can't be changed, so perhaps it is more accurate to say that one of the Macs coming out of the factory ended up with Windows on it instead of iOS. It might be labeled as a Mac by the factory and by all initial appearances seem to be a Mac, but once you boot it up and start interacting with it, it quickly becomes apparent that it is not actually a Mac. It's a PC. Now unfortunately there are some complications a PC occupying the body of a Mac. Drivers to operate some of the hardware might not be correct, and it might eventually be prudent actually change out some of the hardware so that the drivers match the operating system (yes, I'm oversimplifying how drivers work... the analogy can only be stretched so far). Either way, treating that computer like a Mac instead of a PC is an issue and recognizing that it is really a PC with some Mac hardware is going to make things run a whole lot smoother for both the PC and those interacting with the PC.