Editing Rights Question

And i disagree with you too so neener neener. My head is cool, and my panties are un-bunched. How 'bout yours?

Should his efforts be frowned upon? No. But we have enough issues with people jumping into topics they dont understand. You want to let a new person form a bad habit, go ahead. Id rather point it out to him and hey maybe others will pick up the message too.

In a thread concerning editing rights and proper use of moderation, I'd rather not have to moderate people for getting personal. We have various and differing opinions, and we also clearly have varying levels of information concerning the past. And some of us just don't like each other. That is to be expected in a diverse and open forum such as this, but let's all be adults here and decide if our contributions are productive or just noise. If it is the latter, please consider saving it for a more appropriate time and place. Thanks.

In all due honesty, I don't even want to post in this thread, this is getting to be a constant repeating occurrence, and we're losing members as a result. When do we start becoming accountable for what we do and say? Is that a part of being a Jedi? This IS a Jedi Temple after all, is it not? I can only light so many fires under people's behinds before being viewed as an arsonist, and hated as a result...

This is a pm sent to me an hour ago, by a long time standing member. I won't post his name out of respect. His reference to myself as a councilor was of course pointing towards my time spent as an Advisor...

"Zenchi,

Thank you for your service as a Councillor and Knight. I am saddened, once again, by John's antics. I want to continually stress my point that the leadership of this site must focus on doing something about his behavior. Despite the amazing Knights who have recently been inducted into service, TOTJO will forever be a mediocre place as long as John has the ability to rip the spirit of the site apart from the inside.

Keep up the good work,
Hope to be able to come back someday,"

I get the fact that no one here is perfect, but if your going to continue sporting that master rank, than please try to act like you are deserving of it. Fake it till you make it?

It's instances like this that help shape the overall view the entire community has of us as a Temple, and right now we're not looking so hot. There has to come a time where we either learn from these mistakes and start to act accordingly, or we're throwing our hands up and shrugging because those in charge refuse to do anything to correct the problem, and if that is indeed the case, than we are not Jedi, but hypocrites...

Is this the instance where we finally admit to ourselves enough is enough? Is this the turning point where we decide to hold ourselves accountable? I sure n hells hope so.....

Zenchi wrote: In all due honesty, I don't even want to post in this thread, this is getting to be a constant repeating occurrence, and we're losing members as a result. When do we start becoming accountable for what we do and say? Is that a part of being a Jedi? This IS a Jedi Temple after all, is it not? I can only light so many fires under people's behinds before being viewed as an arsonist, and hated as a result...

This is a pm sent to me an hour ago, by a long time standing member. I won't post his name out of respect. His reference to myself as a councilor was of course pointing towards my time spent as an Advisor...

"Zenchi,

Thank you for your service as a Councillor and Knight. I am saddened, once again, by John's antics. I want to continually stress my point that the leadership of this site must focus on doing something about his behavior. Despite the amazing Knights who have recently been inducted into service, TOTJO will forever be a mediocre place as long as John has the ability to rip the spirit of the site apart from the inside.

Keep up the good work,
Hope to be able to come back someday,"

I get the fact that no one here is perfect, but if your going to continue sporting that master rank, than please try to act like you are deserving of it. Fake it till you make it?

It's instances like this that help shape the overall view the entire community has of us as a Temple, and right now we're not looking so hot. There has to come a time where we either learn from these mistakes and start to act accordingly, or we're throwing our hands up and shrugging because those in charge refuse to do anything to correct the problem, and if that is indeed the case, than we are not Jedi, but hypocrites...

Is this the instance where we finally admit to ourselves enough is enough? Is this the turning point where we decide to hold ourselves accountable? I sure n hells hope so.....

I agree on the importance of leaders setting the example. Exactly what do you think should be done, right now, that isnt being done?

What OB1 said ^^^

It is easy to criticize or point at bad behavior, but I haven't seen a viable solution to our ongoing woes that hasn't already been tried or at least discussed. If there was an easy answer, we would've done it by now and everything would be honky dory. The reality is, for now we are doing the best we can with what we're given.

I also feel like it is important to point out that constantly saying we are "losing members" as a direct result of certain things occurring here is not always accurate, and our growing member total would say otherwise. We may lose some members that are friends of ours that we think are important, but there are new members coming here and contributing great things to this Temple every day. We cannot project the displeasure of those who choose to leave onto everyone here. It isn't fair. People will find the place that is right for them, and we will continue to do our very best to make this one of those places, but let's not pretend like we chase people off with torches and pitchforks because we don't. We're not perfect, but we're trying.

The irony of the PM mentioned above is that I received one just like it from the same person (assuming because of the very similar wording) and it comes from someone who I consider to be an upstanding Jedi and excellent member of this community whether he/she practices it in these halls or not. The fact they this person took a moment to express a their desire to see things change for the better here will tell you that the situation is not as hopeless as some would have them sound.

In case it got missed

Added additional emphasis for the part that probably needs the most consideration based on what I've observed the last few months.

Avalon wrote: I would also like to point out that situations like this can be avoided and minimized by the establishment of and respect towards a clear line of duties, responsibilities, and rights to the leadership roles of the site, by all members of leadership and consequences therein...

Maybe something to consider discussing in that whole Pax Templi thing you guys are working on behind the scenes or something similar.

Avalon wrote: In case it got missed

Added additional emphasis for the part that probably needs the most consideration based on what I've observed the last few months.

Avalon wrote: I would also like to point out that situations like this can be avoided and minimized by the establishment of and respect towards a clear line of duties, responsibilities, and rights to the leadership roles of the site, by all members of leadership and consequences therein...

Maybe something to consider discussing in that whole Pax Templi thing you guys are working on behind the scenes or something similar.

I agree that all leadership should be held accountable and there should always be consequences for actions that break the rules, but I think a lot of the confusion comes from a misunderstanding of the bylaws that actually govern how our Council works. Despite popular opinion, this is not a democracy. It is a 501c3 charity and church governed by the laws of Texas and the United States. It isn't so simple as "holding people accountable" and having "consequences". We cannot simply remove or vote out officers the way many think. Our bylaws are written as required to maintain our legal status, and they have to be followed.

Because of this, sometimes certain rules and procedures do not apply to certain offices. As V.P. of Membership Affairs, MadHatter has the authority to ban people from the site forever. That doesn't mean he can do it with impunity and other Councillors can question that action. As a Site Administrator, ren has certain authority and access that other Councillors do not. We can still check and balance his actions, but there are also decisions he can make to protect the security and integrity of this site without our approval. Br. John is not simply a Councillor, but also the President of our Board of Directors as a charity. His duties include being the Chief Secular Operations Officer of the corporation and he deals with legal affairs and keeping the corporation legal under Texas and Federal law. He files the reports with the state. The President also concerns himself with the structure of our Temple. He is also the Treasurer. If he acts in a way that other Councillors disagree with, we discuss these actions as a group. Sometimes it is something we can vote on such as reversing a moderator action, and sometimes it is not something we can overturn based on the bylaws as they exist now. It can get very complicated, but in my time as a Councillor, I have seen Br. John be willing to consider the voices of other Councillors and also accept votes that he was on the losing side of.

The point of this post is not to point at fingers at people, but to remind everyone that this is more than just an internet forum. There are legal ramifications to everything we do here. There are rules we have to follow, many of which require a lawyer to help us navigate and understand. Those gears move slowly and deliberately. The best way to effect real change is to get involved on a more intimate level. Do what you can to learn everything you can about how our policies and bylaws actually come to be and how they can be changed. Volunteer to assist officers with finding solutions or alternatives.

I hate to put a spotlight on the train wreck that is current U.S. politics, but there is a parallel. Much like this Temple, the representative republic we call the United States of America only functions properly when it's citizens are actively engaged and involved in their own governance. If things were as simple as defining roles and then holding all leaders accountable, we wouldn't have the daily circus that we currently have in our White House. If we don't want circus antics in our Council, let's work together to identify how we change the culture together.

Hey Zenchi, Connor can get lost and stay lost. He contributes nothing here and threw away being a Knight and a Minister. He will never have that rank here or be clergy here again. Problem solved.

Start your own Order and do it the right way. All of this crap in this thread is over an issue that our rules say is to be attempted to resolve by PM. Yes it is grandstanding. If anyone has a moderation complaint they will first PM the moderator, and if that does not resolve the issue to everyone's satisfaction then they should contact any member of The Council.

Br. John wrote: Hey Zenchi, Connor can get lost and stay lost. He contributes nothing here and threw away being a Knight and a Minister. He will never have that rank here or be clergy here again. Problem solved.

No one mentioned Connor, so I'm wondering as to the relevance of this statement, and question if that mentality is the mentality of a Jedi. First looking for a problem where none was, and then giving up on a student like that...

But alas, off topic.

Arisaig wrote:

Br. John wrote: Hey Zenchi, Connor can get lost and stay lost. He contributes nothing here and threw away being a Knight and a Minister. He will never have that rank here or be clergy here again. Problem solved.

No one mentioned Connor, so I'm wondering as to the relevance of this statement, and question if that mentality is the mentality of a Jedi. First looking for a problem where none was, and then giving up on a student like that...

But alas, off topic.

Which is why we discourage quoting or bringing PM conversations into the public forum. I am guilty of this too and I shouldn't have mentioned anything about it. This whole thread should've been a PM between two people to begin with, so let's all try to remember to discuss the issue of which officers have rights to edit what and why rather than discussing individuals.