Profiles - Gender
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I'll try to explain some facts before giving my opinion regarding the main subject.
1 - Sex is the biological definition of your reproductive organs. They can be masculine, feminine or intersexual.
2 - Gender is your role on soceity. How you idendity yourself and chose to show yourself to others. It can be male, female and anything in between or none. (To put in simple terms, it's a little more complicated that this.)
3 - If you identify your gender as the same sex that doctors assigned you when you were born and are comfortable with people assuming that your sex should define your identity, you are a cisgender person. The matter being discussed here probably doesn't concern you and you shouldn't be here making assumptions. You should ask questions, listen and empathize to the people who this matter may concern.
4 - If you do not identify your gender as the same sex you were assigned when you were born, you are a transgender person. These people are REAL and they go through a lot of issues in order to make other people accept who they REALLY are. To make soceity accept that they are not defined by their biological sex. To transgender people, their gender identity is REALLY IMPORTANT. They usually do not choose "not to disclosure" because this option would turn their identity (and struggles) invisible. It's like erasing everything they have fought to be!
5 - You don't have to accept the "idea" of gender roles. But accepting or not makes absolutely no difference. The definition of the word "gender" is different from the word "sex". That's a fact, and nothing you can do will change it.
If you choose not to adress a person by their real identities and you just define them by their sexual organs, you are just being plainly disrespectfull. 6 - About the cultural issue. Gender is universal. A lot of cultures accept only the binary spectrum (regarding the sex or not) and many accept A LOT of different genders. They even have special pronouns for each. Assuming that just because some cultures reads gender (identity) as sex (genitals) you must make these the only options is the same as excluding other cultures. I thought that we were trying to be inclusive here, right?
That said, here comes my opinion on the present issue.
- There should be an "GENDER" option on the profile with 3 alternatives: female, male, other.
- It's possible to add more options, but since there are too many non-binary identities, and they are usually too personal, it's always possible to forget something... The "other" option already covers all the non-binary spectrum and if a person reads that on your profile, it will probably tingles one's curiosity enough for he or she automaticaly look into your description to see what are your prefered pronouns.
- It's also possible to leave the gender box for you to fill out with your own gender identity, but it's been said that it's too complicated to change that in the form, so just add the "other" option and it's fine.
- "Non-disclosure" is not a gender option. It's the same than HIDING your identity. If you say to a non binary person that he or she should choose "non-disclosure" if he or she doesn't identify as male of female, you are just saying that this person is not important enough. That he or she should adequate him or herself to YOUR rules, instead of showing empathy and making the rules more inclusive.
- Remember: to a lot of people their gender identity mean a lot. They should be able to show who they are, not to be obligated to enclosure themselves in YOUR standards or to hide themselves.
- Lastly, one of the most important points is that when the TotJO includes the option "other" under gender they are acknowleging that there's more in the world than male/female dichotomy. That people who don't feel they correspond to one of these roles are real, and are welcome in the Order. They include all the trans* spectrum, even if these people choose not to disclosure themselves, they feel embraced.
- That's why, in my opinion, the Temple should not ban the gender box of the profile either. By simply erasing the option, it looks like the Temple doesn't want any trouble and is isenting itself from a very important matter on the lives of a lot of members who already find a lot of misunderstandings during their lives.
- Of course it's unecessary to say that changing "gender" to "sex" is a terrible idea. It's no one's business what I have between my legs. u__u
Sorry if anything sounds strange. English is not my first language, but I tried to write as clear as possible.
Thank you for reading and trying to understand. For me, empathy is the most precious Jedi quality. Please, let's show more empathy towards each other.
May the Force be with you all.
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Aino wrote: I can't believe on the amount of lack of empathy on this thread. Even plain transphobia. I'm really disappointed that some peple call themselves Jedi and still fail to see why this issue matter so much to some of their brothers and sisters.
I'll try to explain some facts before giving my opinion regarding the main subject.
1 - Sex is the biological definition of your reproductive organs. They can be masculine, feminine or intersexual.
2 - Gender is your role on soceity. How you idendity yourself and chose to show yourself to others. It can be male, female and anything in between or none. (To put in simple terms, it's a little more complicated that this.)
3 - If you identify your gender as the same sex that doctors assigned you when you were born and are comfortable with people assuming that your sex should define your identity, you are a cisgender person. The matter being discussed here probably doesn't concern you and you shouldn't be here making assumptions. You should ask questions, listen and empathize to the people who this matter may concern.
4 - If you do not identify your gender as the same sex you were assigned when you were born, you are a transgender person. These people are REAL and they go through a lot of issues in order to make other people accept who they REALLY are. To make soceity accept that they are not defined by their biological sex. To transgender people, their gender identity is REALLY IMPORTANT. They usually do not choose "not to disclosure" because this option would turn their identity (and struggles) invisible. It's like erasing everything they have fought to be!
5 - You don't have to accept the "idea" of gender roles. But accepting or not makes absolutely no difference. The definition of the word "gender" is different from the word "sex". That's a fact, and nothing you can do will change it.
6 - About the cultural issue. Gender is universal. A lot of cultures accept only the binary spectrum (regarding the sex or not) and many accept A LOT of different genders. They even have special pronouns for each. Assuming that just because some cultures reads gender (identity) as sex (genitals) you must make these the only options is the same as excluding other cultures. I thought that we were trying to be inclusive here, right?
That said, here comes my opinion on the present issue.
- There should be an "GENDER" option on the profile with 3 alternatives: female, male, other.
- It's possible to add more options, but since there are too many non-binary identities, and they are usually too personal, it's always possible to forget something... The "other" option already covers all the non-binary spectrum and if a person reads that on your profile, it will probably tingles one's curiosity enough for he or she automaticaly look into your description to see what are your prefered pronouns.
- It's also possible to leave the gender box for you to fill out with your own gender identity, but it's been said that it's too complicated to change that in the form, so just add the "other" option and it's fine.
- "Non-disclosure" is not a gender option. It's the same than HIDING your identity. If you say to a non binary person that he or she should choose "non-disclosure" if he or she doesn't identify as male of female, you are just saying that this person is not important enough. That he or she should adequate him or herself to YOUR rules, instead of showing empathy and making the rules more inclusive.
- Remember: to a lot of people their gender identity mean a lot. They should be able to show who they are, not to be obligated to enclosure themselves in YOUR standards or to hide themselves.
- Lastly, one of the most important points is that when the TotJO includes the option "other" under gender they are acknowleging that there's more in the world than male/female dichotomy. That people who don't feel they correspond to one of these roles are real, and are welcome in the Order. They include all the trans* spectrum, even if these people choose not to disclosure themselves, they feel embraced.
- That's why, in my opinion, the Temple should not ban the gender box of the profile either. By simply erasing the option, it looks like the Temple doesn't want any trouble and is isenting itself from a very important matter on the lives of a lot of members who already find a lot of misunderstandings during their lives.
- Of course it's unecessary to say that changing "gender" to "sex" is a terrible idea. It's no one's business what I have between my legs. u__u
Sorry if anything sounds strange. English is not my first language, but I tried to write as clear as possible.
Thank you for reading and trying to understand. For me, empathy is the most precious Jedi quality. Please, let's show more empathy towards each other.
May the Force be with you all.
None of my replies were un- emphatic, the suggestion that you make that the box should not be removed because Totjo does not want to adress the issue is in my opinion not valid , especially as Jedi , gender and sex are not relevant for the function and living as a Jedi , if anything it seems to be a breaking point , something we argue about. The Jedi religion or philosophy if you prefer that has no opinion on how you live you life between the sheets , nor does it meddlle in you choice of clothes or that you wish to be called a woman or a man. The only logical sollution is to remove the sex and gender box and elaborate as much as you want about your gender in the About Me box
If you see my disagreeing as a sign of not emphatising with you i in advance warn you that i put such aside me as fast as you type it , emphathy is a Jedi trade and one of the more important ones , but we dont have to agree on everything here , thats what is so nice about being a Jedi , you have to do and say the right thing , but even the right thing is a fluid concept
May the Force be with you aswell Jedi
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- Alethea Thompson
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Born Male identify as Male: Male
Born Male identify as Female: Female
Born Female identify as Female: Female
Born Female identify as Male: Male
I'm being legit- what are the genders out there that people identify as? If we look at Tumblr, the list is ENORMOUS. The only real solution would be to have write ins. And even then, the problem we are still going to run into is pronouns. Because if someone identifies as Neutrois (which I just picked up off a random list) or gender nuetral it's going to be difficult for anyone to sit there and figure out which pronoun fits when addressing that person in the third person. (I mean, don't get me wrong, the other solution is to just constantly refer to them by their name, but even then the problem is that it gets to a point where putting someone's name constantly in a paragraph looks condescending
And that's not typically the intent when dealing with unknowns of gender pronouns).If we include various genders, we must also include a "Preferred pronoun" section, which would also need to be written in.
Or, conversely, we can get rid of gender listings altogether.
Gather at the River,
Setanaoko Oceana
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Alethea Thompson wrote: What else could you identify as?
Born Male identify as Male: Male
Born Male identify as Female: Female
Born Female identify as Female: Female
Born Female identify as Male: Male
I'm being legit- what are the genders out there that people identify as? If we look at Tumblr, the list is ENORMOUS. The only real solution would be to have write ins. And even then, the problem we are still going to run into is pronouns. Because if someone identifies as Neutrois (which I just picked up off a random list) or gender nuetral it's going to be difficult for anyone to sit there and figure out which pronoun fits when addressing that person in the third person. (I mean, don't get me wrong, the other solution is to just constantly refer to them by their name, but even then the problem is that it gets to a point where putting someone's name constantly in a paragraph looks condescending
If we include various genders, we must also include a "Preferred pronoun" section, which would also need to be written in.
Or, conversely, we can get rid of gender listings altogether.
Or, we can just add the option for 'other'... which is what I suggested 12 pages ago before this whole thing turned into a farce.
"Evil is always possible. And goodness is eternally difficult."
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Edan wrote:
Alethea Thompson wrote: What else could you identify as?
Born Male identify as Male: Male
Born Male identify as Female: Female
Born Female identify as Female: Female
Born Female identify as Male: Male
I'm being legit- what are the genders out there that people identify as? If we look at Tumblr, the list is ENORMOUS. The only real solution would be to have write ins. And even then, the problem we are still going to run into is pronouns. Because if someone identifies as Neutrois (which I just picked up off a random list) or gender nuetral it's going to be difficult for anyone to sit there and figure out which pronoun fits when addressing that person in the third person. (I mean, don't get me wrong, the other solution is to just constantly refer to them by their name, but even then the problem is that it gets to a point where putting someone's name constantly in a paragraph looks condescending
If we include various genders, we must also include a "Preferred pronoun" section, which would also need to be written in.
Or, conversely, we can get rid of gender listings altogether.
Or, we can just add the option for 'other'... which is what I suggested 12 pages ago before this whole thing turned into a farce.
Other does not address preferred pronoun usage.
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