New Degree System of Jediism?

Alan wrote: Perhaps, one way to look at it: when one has completed a certain amount of public postings and so has contributed to the overall quality of the Temple then a small group of friends recognizes it with an honorary title.

If I may ask, public postings? You do not mean forum posts? Because the forum posts count is disabled to create more unity? Ehm not sure what you mean with that word ''public postings''.

~ Aqua

Maybe this is just my general lack of understanding but....

We know the A.Div equates to earning your knighthood.

The B.Div is part of what is necessary to reach senior knight, along with the so many apprentices (unless that's an outdated thing too). So is that right there not the purpose of it in the first place? To keep track of the necessary developmental steps and studies to say "yes, this person has done the right level of studying to reach the senior knight rank"? *shrugs* Seems like the point to me.

Please excuse my ignorance on the topic, but I do have a question that I hope nobody minds me asking. It would seem to me that if there is a question as to the purpose of the degree scheme, then it must be largely ceremonial, lacking any real-world application. Is that a correct statement?

If so, then what if the Temple actually conferred Associates and Bachelors degrees as it has the formal authority to do, complete with a hard-copy diploma for purchase if someone was so inclined? At least then there could be a tangible purpose. I'm not sure it's something I would care anything about personally, but it would satisfy the question of purpose. I recognise the earlier statement about the details of the degree scheme not being discussed openly so as to keep people from being completion-focused, and I think the simple way to handle that is to advise the candidate only when they've attained sufficient credit to "graduate".

Just a thought...do with it as you will.

Posting on Temple forum.

The real world application of the work that we do and post here is here (this is real to me) and in the world away from these pages. This is a place where we can gather around pages where we can read what others think and do.

I feel that the A.Div at Knight is right where it should be. IP coursework is not degree-worthy on its own, given the small scope and short term of the study. While it requires much in the way of introspection, it requires very little in the way of actual education.

Furthermore, the D.Div is (at least in the US) widely regarded as an honorary degree. While I'd like to see TOTJO revamp their degree scheme to include it in the actual coursework.

Wikipedia wrote: In the United States, Doctor of Divinity is traditionally an honorary degree granted by a church-related college, seminary, or university to recognize the recipient's ministry-orientated accomplishments.

Learn.org wrote: In the United States, a Doctor of Divinity (D.Div.) is an honorary degree and cannot be earned through an academic program. Some colleges allow you to apply for the honorary degree if you prove you have a bachelor's degree and enough experience in ministry. These degrees are often conferred to selected recipients annually.

TOTJO is a corporation based in the US, and is therefore subject to US law and customs moreso than in any other locality.

Avalonslight wrote: We know the A.Div equates to earning your knighthood.

No.

Avalonslight wrote: To keep track of the necessary developmental steps and studies to say "yes, this person has done the right level of studying to reach the senior knight rank"?

Yes. This is what we use it for now.

This is how it applies to the Apprenticeship, the A.Div is a requirement of Knighthood, but if your Training Master doesn't think you are ready for Knighthood, or the Council doesn't think you are ready, it doesn't matter how many points you have for your degree, you will not be Knighted.

Apprenticeship is about personal development. The A.Div is about ensuring that people do at least a similar amount of work in total, because before this was implemented (when Knights were given full reign) Apprentices could have to do wildly different amounts of work.

Akkarin wrote: This is how it applies to the Apprenticeship, the A.Div is a requirement of Knighthood...

This is what I meant. Sorry if I didn't state that clearly, but that is what I meant by "it is the equivalent of". Without the A.Div, you can't have the knighthood. That much I knew pretty clearly.

I was more interested in this part of what I said:

The B.Div is part of what is necessary to reach senior knight, along with the so many apprentices (unless that's an outdated thing too). So is that right there not the purpose of it in the first place? To keep track of the necessary developmental steps and studies to say "yes, this person has done the right level of studying to reach the senior knight rank"? *shrugs* Seems like the point to me.

Since people are questioning the purpose of the degree scheme, I was trying to figure out if that was in fact it.

Connor L. wrote: I am still waiting for somebody to come along and tell me what they think the PURPOSE of the Degree Scheme is.

External legitimacy and record-keeping.

The Degree Scheme (and it IS a degree scheme, regardless of what my "betters" above have said) mirrors the advancement of a collegiate-level student in a standard school seeking a degree in the subject matter of Divinity, which is slightly less research-intensive than the more-static academic field of Theology.

A.Div = Associate of Divinity = The equivalent of a "two-year" degree. In general, the Associate degree in the States is something that can be earned on the way to a more traditional (and useful) Bachelors/four-year degree, or if one only needs a minimum of post-secondary training to be certified or licensed for a task. In TOTJO, Knighthood fits neatly here because it is the minimum amount of required coursework to be recognized by the first major rank.

B.Div = Bachelor of Divinity = The equivalent of a "four-year" degree. Generally speaking, when folks go to college for a "degree", as V said, they go for a Bachelor's degree, spending four years studying their subject matter and gaining more knowledge on the topic than a mere certificate or license would cover. In TOTJO, the B.Div indicates a dedicated level of learning beyond the A.Div, and showcases the student's drive to understand our teachings better.

And I personally and wholeheartedly believe we should reincorporate the M.Div and the D.Div into course-level or measurable activities, as well. Especially the D.Div, which I mentioned earlier is typically only an honorary title and not one that showcases work on a topic.

The reason we have this degree scheme is the same reason that other churches, seminaries, colleges, and spiritual organizations do: because the Church (generic usage here) can award degrees to denote a measure of study, and these degrees mean more (i.e., can be more easily interpreted) to those outside our structure than our internal ranks of Knight, Sr. Knight, Master, etc.

Our "degree scheme" has none; it can be used nowhere else.

Edan wrote: Our "degree scheme" has none; it can be used nowhere else.

And neither can the equivalent degrees from any other non-accredited religious institution. We're not a college, Edan. We're a church. But these degrees are typical and traditional among religious groups, spiritual groups, seminaries, and certain schools.

If so, then what if the Temple actually conferred Associates and Bachelors degrees as it has the formal authority to do, complete with a hard-copy diploma for purchase if someone was so inclined?

steamboat28 wrote: And neither can the equivalent degrees from any other non-accredited religious institution. We're not a college, Edan. We're a church. But these degrees are typical and traditional among religious groups, spiritual groups, seminaries, and certain schools.

Steam points out something very important. No matter how the degree scheme is organized, even if TotJO does send out "certificates" or what have you related to those degree schemes, these degrees won't be recognized by a traditional, accredited university, in any country. They'll purely be for internal use, though can be recognized externally by other religious organizations that structure their religious training in similar fashions as a form of legitimacy.

That said, if my understanding that posted earlier is accurate, that is that the degree scheme is meant to universalize how much work each individual has put into studying towards the next rank, be it knight or senior knight, then the way it's set up right now serves that purpose just fine, in my opinion.

Steam, I agree. Thanks for a good, straight-forward answer that I can work with. Unfortunately, the coursework post Apprenticeship... doesn't really look anything like a Bachelors or Masters degree. It's more an organic hodge-podge of random lessons thrown together.

So, the next step would be to say... what are the areas of study we would want somebody with a B Div. to have under their belt? And, so on with the M Div. and D Div.

I think the A Div. is perfect the way it is. It should take a year to two years to complete it.

But, the self-study B Div. is... well. Messy.

V-Tog wrote: D.Div has more or less been scrapped, and M.Div has been suspended for a long time now

*curls up in a ball and cries, cradling her shattered dreams*

Snowy Aftermath wrote:

V-Tog wrote: D.Div has more or less been scrapped, and M.Div has been suspended for a long time now

*curls up in a ball and cries, cradling her shattered dreams*

Be the change, Snowy. lol

Connor L. wrote: So, the next step would be to say... what are the areas of study we would want somebody with a B Div. to have under their belt? And, so on with the M Div. and D Div.

As mentioned earlier, I'd use an advanced application to the IP material, such as this which I'm working through
http://jordanbpeterson.com/Psy230H/ which is here;
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?action_edit=1&list=PL22J3VaeABQAhrMCQUa6sde_Y9DVbLYRv
.. and additional set stuff. With electives as well so people can personalize their study.

Then make the D. Div. a research and thesis project.

steamboat wrote:

And I personally and wholeheartedly believe we should reincorporate the M.Div and the D.Div into course-level or measurable activities, as well. Especially the D.Div, which I mentioned earlier is typically only an honorary title and not one that showcases work on a topic.

i agree, and it's something i'm considering/working on...the trick is getting everything sorted and getting enough on board for it....i'm still in the "getting everything sorted" phase...as has been mentioned a few times, things are a bit of a mess, at no one's fault as the system was kind of just thrown together, then modified and adjusted over the years....a complete overhaul will take considerable time and work

IMO, degrees must represent experience and achievements, not books read or books written.

Zen was passed pretty much binary, AFAIK. Either you are or you are not. And all based on simple passage from one hands to the other.

Seems to me that those with Master- and Doctorate-type titles should be groundbreakers in some way. Like, really have done something significant as far as developing and adding to Jediism with some major kind of effort. It should be appropriately time and life consuming. Maybe the reward for earning a Doctorate-type of deal could eventually be some kind of a (humble) monetary grant to support their research.

The Noben Prize.

*giggles to herself*

Sorry, I'll show myself out.

D.Div was awarded to cardinals/Councillors at totjo.

The degree scheme was created at a time when rank was randomly given to people. It was started as a trial scheme for knights and above by Mark Anjuu, who had himself become GM and Bishop with very little training here. It was later made a requirement within the ranking system, in order to "repair" it. That's why these days apprenticeships last such a long time.

People with degrees get certain titles. At totjo, We call a graduate (bachelor's degree) a "senior knight" or a "master" if they have also trained a few knights. I don't see what's so wrong with that.

To Bring the question back: if degree system is for selfstudy purpose. How does it make difference if we have ranks?