New Degree System of Jediism?

What does a div. covers, what a rank does not? I feel confused even more now..

Connor L. wrote: IOne other thing, where was this when we were discussing the Degree Scheme last year

Is that to me? AFAIK the Committee was setup to investigate and brainstorm how to build a degree scheme, not why to have one. I'd assume they'd already have a purpose or quickly agree on one at the outset, otherwise why have a committee about it. If it was a committee about 'what is the purpose of the degree scheme' then that would have been my feedback, but I thought you guys were working on the best way to develop a program. But I wasn't on the committee so I wouldn't know.

As to the rest of your post. Milestone's are useful in helping people apply themselves more effectively by giving them something tangible to schedule with their other activities. Validation about achievement is optional, but certainly inherit in effort that equates to progress. I could equally argue it is more of an exercise to undertake it and not feel validation then ignore it not to feel validation.

Aqua wrote: What does a div. covers, what a rank does not? I feel confused even more now..

To answer this, you have to look beyond the Senior Knighthood ranks.

Because, the IP + Apprenticeship = the A Div. Degree (meaning there is NO difference).

The Senior Knight is the B Div. Degree (so, one and the same again).

So. I ask again... ??? What is the point if they are the same thing?

The confusion is calling it a degree scheme at all.

Essentially, there is no degree scheme. There is rank, with an unhelpful additional name.

Adder wrote:

Connor L. wrote: IOne other thing, where was this when we were discussing the Degree Scheme last year

Is that to me? AFAIK the Committee was setup to investigate and brainstorm how to build a degree scheme, not why to have one. I'd assume they'd already have a purpose or quickly agree on one at the outset, otherwise why have a committee about it. If it was a committee about 'what is the purpose of the degree scheme' then that would have been my feedback, but I thought you guys were working on the best way to develop a program. But I wasn't on the committee so I wouldn't know.

As to the rest of your post. Milestone's are useful in helping people apply themselves more effectively by giving them something tangible to schedule with their other activities. Validation about achievement is optional, but certainly inherit in effort that equates to progress. I could equally argue it is more of an exercise to undertake it and not feel validation then ignore it not to feel validation.

Sorry, Adder. That was actually to Akkarin.

I know why the committee was set up (I created and headed it up..). But, I quickly had sort of an existential crisis about the degree scheme and stepped down. The committee was set up to create the degree scheme, yes, but I couldn't find a good enough reason to create one. That was the problem.

The milestones are covered in the rank though.
IP + Apprenticeship = A Div.
Knighthood = B Div. (completing 200 more points making one a Senior Knight)

So, if that's the purpose, then it's superfluous.

Edan wrote: The confusion is calling it a degree scheme at all.

Essentially, there is no degree scheme. There is rank, with an unhelpful additional name.

Right. That is essentially the boiling down of it.

Connor L. wrote:

Aqua wrote: What does a div. covers, what a rank does not? I feel confused even more now..

To answer this, you have to look beyond the Senior Knighthood ranks.

So. I ask again... ??? What is the point if they are the same thing?

That part I asked in similar way earlier in the topic.. Indeed.. what is the difference

Aqua wrote: What does a div. covers, what a rank does not? I feel confused even more now..

There isn't, that's the problem we have when people bring up the degree scheme.

Aqua wrote:

Connor L. wrote:

Aqua wrote: What does a div. covers, what a rank does not? I feel confused even more now..

To answer this, you have to look beyond the Senior Knighthood ranks.

So. I ask again... ??? What is the point if they are the same thing?

That part I asked in similar way earlier in the topic.. Indeed.. what is the difference

Aqua wrote: What does a div. covers, what a rank does not? I feel confused even more now..

Edan wrote: Essentially, there is no degree scheme. There is rank, with an unhelpful additional name.

Ah, oh well in my proposal the 'degree' is quite literally the depth of study ie the degree of commitment to the application of effort :lol:
But in more practical terms it would be the topics outlined in the IP. I'm not sure if those topics represent 'Divinity', but why not, we could add some more Core topics in higher awards to align it more with traditional Divinity degrees.

Edan wrote:

Aqua wrote:

Connor L. wrote:

Aqua wrote: What does a div. covers, what a rank does not? I feel confused even more now..

To answer this, you have to look beyond the Senior Knighthood ranks.

So. I ask again... ??? What is the point if they are the same thing?

That part I asked in similar way earlier in the topic.. Indeed.. what is the difference

Aqua wrote: What does a div. covers, what a rank does not? I feel confused even more now..

Edan wrote: Essentially, there is no degree scheme. There is rank, with an unhelpful additional name.

:blink: :blush: :laugh:

Perhaps, one way to look at it: when one has completed a certain amount of public postings and so has contributed to the overall quality of the Temple then a small group of friends recognizes it with an honorary title. The degree scheme points are a helpful way to keep track and having a little incentive never hurts. There is some ambiguity and flexibility which I am comfortable with. Me? I'm just plugging along. Little bit here. Little bit there. I like this digital Temple and the posted thoughts of most of the persons who take the time and effort to be friendly and helpful.

Alan wrote: Perhaps, one way to look at it: when one has completed a certain amount of public postings and so has contributed to the overall quality of the Temple then a small group of friends recognizes it with an honorary title.

If I may ask, public postings? You do not mean forum posts? Because the forum posts count is disabled to create more unity? Ehm not sure what you mean with that word ''public postings''.

~ Aqua

Maybe this is just my general lack of understanding but....

We know the A.Div equates to earning your knighthood.

The B.Div is part of what is necessary to reach senior knight, along with the so many apprentices (unless that's an outdated thing too). So is that right there not the purpose of it in the first place? To keep track of the necessary developmental steps and studies to say "yes, this person has done the right level of studying to reach the senior knight rank"? *shrugs* Seems like the point to me.

Please excuse my ignorance on the topic, but I do have a question that I hope nobody minds me asking. It would seem to me that if there is a question as to the purpose of the degree scheme, then it must be largely ceremonial, lacking any real-world application. Is that a correct statement?

If so, then what if the Temple actually conferred Associates and Bachelors degrees as it has the formal authority to do, complete with a hard-copy diploma for purchase if someone was so inclined? At least then there could be a tangible purpose. I'm not sure it's something I would care anything about personally, but it would satisfy the question of purpose. I recognise the earlier statement about the details of the degree scheme not being discussed openly so as to keep people from being completion-focused, and I think the simple way to handle that is to advise the candidate only when they've attained sufficient credit to "graduate".

Just a thought...do with it as you will.

Posting on Temple forum.

The real world application of the work that we do and post here is here (this is real to me) and in the world away from these pages. This is a place where we can gather around pages where we can read what others think and do.

I feel that the A.Div at Knight is right where it should be. IP coursework is not degree-worthy on its own, given the small scope and short term of the study. While it requires much in the way of introspection, it requires very little in the way of actual education.

Furthermore, the D.Div is (at least in the US) widely regarded as an honorary degree. While I'd like to see TOTJO revamp their degree scheme to include it in the actual coursework.

Wikipedia wrote: In the United States, Doctor of Divinity is traditionally an honorary degree granted by a church-related college, seminary, or university to recognize the recipient's ministry-orientated accomplishments.

Learn.org wrote: In the United States, a Doctor of Divinity (D.Div.) is an honorary degree and cannot be earned through an academic program. Some colleges allow you to apply for the honorary degree if you prove you have a bachelor's degree and enough experience in ministry. These degrees are often conferred to selected recipients annually.

TOTJO is a corporation based in the US, and is therefore subject to US law and customs moreso than in any other locality.

Avalonslight wrote: We know the A.Div equates to earning your knighthood.

No.

Avalonslight wrote: To keep track of the necessary developmental steps and studies to say "yes, this person has done the right level of studying to reach the senior knight rank"?

Yes. This is what we use it for now.

This is how it applies to the Apprenticeship, the A.Div is a requirement of Knighthood, but if your Training Master doesn't think you are ready for Knighthood, or the Council doesn't think you are ready, it doesn't matter how many points you have for your degree, you will not be Knighted.

Apprenticeship is about personal development. The A.Div is about ensuring that people do at least a similar amount of work in total, because before this was implemented (when Knights were given full reign) Apprentices could have to do wildly different amounts of work.

Akkarin wrote: This is how it applies to the Apprenticeship, the A.Div is a requirement of Knighthood...

This is what I meant. Sorry if I didn't state that clearly, but that is what I meant by "it is the equivalent of". Without the A.Div, you can't have the knighthood. That much I knew pretty clearly.

I was more interested in this part of what I said:

The B.Div is part of what is necessary to reach senior knight, along with the so many apprentices (unless that's an outdated thing too). So is that right there not the purpose of it in the first place? To keep track of the necessary developmental steps and studies to say "yes, this person has done the right level of studying to reach the senior knight rank"? *shrugs* Seems like the point to me.

Since people are questioning the purpose of the degree scheme, I was trying to figure out if that was in fact it.

Connor L. wrote: I am still waiting for somebody to come along and tell me what they think the PURPOSE of the Degree Scheme is.

External legitimacy and record-keeping.

The Degree Scheme (and it IS a degree scheme, regardless of what my "betters" above have said) mirrors the advancement of a collegiate-level student in a standard school seeking a degree in the subject matter of Divinity, which is slightly less research-intensive than the more-static academic field of Theology.

A.Div = Associate of Divinity = The equivalent of a "two-year" degree. In general, the Associate degree in the States is something that can be earned on the way to a more traditional (and useful) Bachelors/four-year degree, or if one only needs a minimum of post-secondary training to be certified or licensed for a task. In TOTJO, Knighthood fits neatly here because it is the minimum amount of required coursework to be recognized by the first major rank.

B.Div = Bachelor of Divinity = The equivalent of a "four-year" degree. Generally speaking, when folks go to college for a "degree", as V said, they go for a Bachelor's degree, spending four years studying their subject matter and gaining more knowledge on the topic than a mere certificate or license would cover. In TOTJO, the B.Div indicates a dedicated level of learning beyond the A.Div, and showcases the student's drive to understand our teachings better.

And I personally and wholeheartedly believe we should reincorporate the M.Div and the D.Div into course-level or measurable activities, as well. Especially the D.Div, which I mentioned earlier is typically only an honorary title and not one that showcases work on a topic.

The reason we have this degree scheme is the same reason that other churches, seminaries, colleges, and spiritual organizations do: because the Church (generic usage here) can award degrees to denote a measure of study, and these degrees mean more (i.e., can be more easily interpreted) to those outside our structure than our internal ranks of Knight, Sr. Knight, Master, etc.