Some questions from a passer-by

per merriam webster's dictionary
Full Definition of religion
1a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion>
b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

it is by these that i feel jediism can be seen as a religion, and while i can't speak for everyone, i'm sure most will agree...

a personal set of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices... a cause, principle or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith....

Reneza wrote:

Jestor wrote: Im sorry, "whats about"?

"Jediism"

"Jediism"" It's clearly not about that though. It's about a self-proclaimed religious organization defining what its members actually believe."

Crazy, I was talking about TOTJO, and somehow you flipped it to that? :blink: :dry:

Jestor wrote: Well, thank you for letting us know our motives...

Well, few others wish to tell me, so what else am I supposed to do other than deduce from what I read here?

You know what happens when you assume, "right"?

Jestor wrote: syncretic ideology... Need ideology too?

That makes more sense, thank you. No need for the latter part.

Jestor wrote: IM not worried about labels...

You sure are, lol...

If by labels you mean words with definitions then yes. I prefer if when people claimed they were something, they were able to define it.

Yea, thats part of your trouble, lol...

Gotta define everything, gotta figure out the puzzles, gotta know, gotta seek... lol...

Jestor wrote: Jediism is however you are defining it for you... Its why you wont understand from the seat you are in, lol...

By what you say, it literally has no meaning.

Right...

Life doesnt, you are aware of that too, right?

The only meaning in anything, is that which we give it... lol...

Jestor wrote: Thats twice now you have suggested I was insulting...

The text speaks for itself.

Well, two thoughts...

One, maybe I need to work on speaking with those who are easily offended... I used to put a disclaimer in my signature for those with weak consittutions...

Two, you are just having fun with us...

Three, actually, you suffer from an 'interrogator drama major', with a 'poor me drama minor'...

Jestor wrote: Cause you would fall into the "non-jedi' people... and I would fall into the other...

So what is the line between Jedi and non-Jedi?

Similar to the line between sunup, and sundown...

Jestor wrote: No, you need to try heroin to understand what it feels like...

So how do I "try" Jediism?

Act like a Jedi...

Picture the perfect Jedi in your mind...

Be that person...

Jestor wrote: There are plenty of studies that tell show you it can kill you...

There are also countless things online that would suggest that Jediism is not much more than playing dress-ups and role playing but I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt by asking you people what you believe.

True...

And I think we are accomidating you, lol...

Cause,you know, if I can influence one life positively, yada, yada...

You may be 'the one' for me...

Jestor wrote: You have to figure that out for yourself, lol...

Then it's meaningless. But plenty of people have given vague definitions at least. Is it difficult for you to give at least one?

Yes...

Sorry...

One? "Dont be a dick..."

Jestor wrote: The founders of this temple did..

Ok, but then it doesn't sound really universal then but rather chauvinistic.

Hows that?

Jestor wrote: Please tell us what a religion is, from a agreed upon source...

I didn't start this thread to do so and I don't see how it would help at all.

[/quote]

YOu said we were not a religion, we say we are...

Reneza, you have received many explanations, and many kinds of definitions. None of them have satisfied you. We have stated that many things in our Temple are non-specific. You asked that they be made specific. They aren't. You wanting them to be won't change that.

You have been, quite frankly, rude and dismissive in a way that is either deliberate or smacks of an astonishing lack of self-awareness. I realize you may find this insulting, but there it is. I would like you to try to understand something:

We do not go looking for converts. We do not evangelize. When people come, we welcome them. When they leave we wish them well. Each of us serves in the world in our own way, led by our own consciences. We did not come looking for you. When you showed up and demanded answers without being willing to put any discernable work into understanding what goes on here, a great deal of time was spent explaining our endeavor. We did it because the subject matter is dear to us and because we are sympathetic to curiosity and the desire for insight. We all started as seekers. We are all still seekers. We gave you the answers we gave you. If you don't like them, we do not owe you answers that suit your preferences. Strictly speaking, you were not owed the answers that you did get.

I may be wrong (I often am), but you give no appearance of any sincere effort to understand. You seem to have come to argue. If you did sincerely try to understand, and failed, then I apologize. Between you aparent unwillingness to meet us halfway and your general lack of civility, I do not see how this can go any farther. And it is a shame. You seem both bright and driven. I'm sure we all could have learned a great deal from each other. Just, not today.

Take excellent care of yourself, Reneza. When you actually want to talk and listen, I look forward to it.

Reneza wrote: The search engine says this which I'm rather happy with: the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods or a particular system of faith and worship.

the search engine gave you something convenient, but not comprehensive

it is accepted by scholars that there is no single definition of the word "religion"

well, the scholars that teach at my community college anyway, primarily this guy (why he got such a low score for "easiness" i dont know - all you had to do was show up, pay attention, and read what he told you to read)

but if you dont trust him, what about this place?

"Definitions of religion tend to suffer from one of two problems: they are either too narrow and exclude many belief systems which most agree are religious, or they are too vague and ambiguous, suggesting that just about anything and everything is a religion."

and

"Mircea Eliade defined religion in reference to a focus on "the sacred," and that is a good replacement for "supernatural beings" because not every religion revolves around the supernatural."

anyway, to say "this is not a religion" because it doesnt meet the standard that you yourself have set, which is not a standard accepted by those who have spent their entire lifetimes studying religions, does not actually negate that it fills the role of religion in the lives of many people

if something fills that role, who am i, or who who are you, to say that its not a religion?

you mentioned the nicene creed - what you didnt mention was that it was established in 325 aka close to 300 years after the estimated death of jesus

(i dont think totjo has had even 30 years to sort itself out, so we're doing ok)

nor did you mention the reason it was necessary - because of the varied interpretations of what it meant to be christian at the time, by the people who were alive during the early years of christianity

imo, and i think history does not much contradict this, the fact that rome itself had a vested interest in the final results was as relevant to the chosen interpretation as any individuals religious piety or scholarliness

and for that matter, a religion's doctrine is codified by the people who practice the religion: they could just as easily say "our god is beyond precise definition, but we use such and such language to relate to it because it is functional and convenient for us to do so" and that would be accepted today

fundamental to the idea of the tao is that it is not definable - this is like the first page of the tao te ching

i take a slight exception to your definition of "myth"

you say:

Reneza wrote: I understand what you're coming from so perhaps I can define what I mean by myth as it means to most modern people in English, although not the strict original definition: "fictional story that may or may not contain actual historic fact, but used to explain a particular concept." This is the definition used by Campbell in his book.

my objection is the use of the word "concept" - i feel this is not hitting the heart of the matter

myths are used to express existential truths - all myths are true

in the sense that they tell us something that is true about ourselves, or our times, or at least, the about people who created them

its bigger than mere "concepts"

and no here really needs the benefit of your doubt - some of the things youve said are easily taken as insulting, maybe you dont mean them that way

i am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you dont

but i am curious where you want to go from here

youre not going to convince anyone here of -- anything probably

are you trying to?

what?

if you dont think "jediism" is a valid religion, then by all means, dont adopt it

i do believe the questions and points you raise are good for totjo to face - im curious however if youre open to the possibility that what we have here actually works, imperfect as it may be?

and if it does work, are you just taking an opportunity to tip someones cart and spill their goods?

To me, the Force is the Source - the stuff of Life, synonymous with Love - all that the source created is real and the source is the force behind all of life - it will always be with you it is part of you. You can use it by aligning yourself with it, or misuse it by denying it.

Not religious. Agnostic by default. Proud Sith.

I dont know many who see the Sith path as a religious one. I think maybe one group? A few scattered individuals.

The main difference is where Jedi see Jedi as the goal, Sith, the path, is a means to an end, of achieving ones goals. So, as to where a fireman wants to be a fireman, or a Jedi wants to be a Jedi, a Sith wants...Whatever that Sith wants( This is a specific passion, that each Sith decides for oneself) and the path is a means to end of achieving that. It is not a goal in and of itself.

Defined by a method of progression laid out by the code, and then the more intricate tools needed to achieve ones goals further refined as ones passion(goals) become more specific.

I dont really give the Force much thought at all, as it seems really to vague a concept, and if it does exist, by any description I have heard, well, its a bit beyond my pay grade.

Some sort of omnipresent, possibly sentient, possibly not, etc,etc....

I just went cross-eyed.

What I believe in is life, and death.

I only have so many years on this earth, and there is no way to tell how long that is, but by all I have seen and witnessed in the medical field, it does end, and it is indiscriminate of race, creed, or time.

So, before my life account runs out, I am going to spend my time achieving what I want. To produce positive feedback loops within my sphere of influence, at which I, am the center.

As for the Dark Side.

The best I can explain it is...Sort of like a preferred genre of music.

I dont like country, but I do like classic rock. Well, thats a bit vague considering that music I listened to as a kid is now considered as such....

Still, I think you get the point.

I can get a bit more specific, but only so much as you dont become boring. As my time is precious to me, and I couldnt possibly care less if at the end of MY interest, your still hung up on how my path works or is defined.

Reneza,

It seems you are having trouble in understanding the explanations. It is a hard thing to pin down especially when you require clinical definitions to something that cannot be described. However lets just take one aspect of this and see if we can quantify it for you. this is my definition of "The Force". Let me know what you think.

The term “The Force” is simply a poetic label we assign to the emotion we feel and the beauty we derive from our connection to each other.

For some this connection might be interpreted as supernatural in the idea that The Force is an esoteric or otherwise subtle energy field that is outside the 4 quantum forces of nature and is an emergent property of physical life itself. This would be analogous to our consciousness being an emergent property of the function of our physical brains. Something not quite fully explained by science. This falls completely into the realm of faith however.

For others this connection is interpreted in a more natural form within the laws of the universe. Those aspects being the very idea that we are all evolved from a single ancient form of life that emerged from a set of elements created out of the same stardust that emerged into existence in a single event called the big bang. We are literally the stuff of stars and the ratios of elements we find in the universe are the same ratios we find in ourselves. There is something we find beautiful in that.

No matter what form you ascribe to, all existence is energy and energy is just energy. It has no opinions and it is not aware of itself nor does it feel. It is us as humans that feel. We too are not good or bad but simply human. And in that we are capable of good or evil acts. It is not the energy that is light or dark. It is the way it is used by us as humans. Energy in this sense can either be that esoteric energy above that some draw a strength from either imagined or real through faith or it can be simply the fuel we derive from the food we ate that allows us to move and interact with this corporeal world.

Even the matter of our bodies is just a form of energy. These are the things that connect us and for some of us we find great majesty in that. An awe and a wonder that deeply moves us. It is not a logical thing but one of deep emotion. The particular terms and descriptions we use to describe these emotions we feel for this connection make up our mythology. And the poetic label of the central theme of this mythology we call “The Force”. And because we are pack creatures and derive pleasure in shared experience we come together to celebrate and share these emotions and we call it our spirituality.

EDIT: I meant to quote this too;

The main difference is where Jedi see Jedi as the goal, Sith, the path,

==============================

fireman wants to be a fireman, or a Jedi wants to be a Jed

Gonna have to disagree with ya here buddy..

Most Jedi want the world to be a better place... Although, what that means, and how to achieve it, differs...

If I had to generalize, I mean...

Since we are all generalizing... lol...

We (Jedi) like being lumped together about as much as anyone else... :lol:

The fireman, may be following a family tradition, and would prefer to make furniture... lol...

I think I'm coming to a pretty solid conclusion that the Jedi faith really is based on communal sentiment rather than any solid concepts.

There's a few other Jedi groups out there I heard, as well as many individuals who just proclaim to be Jedis as they relate to the movies. Our group here has a solid doctrine and a ritual process dealing with membership, a hierarchy with a leadership or council, the traditions of basically learning, discussing, self-exploration and reflection. If religion is just "a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny," or "an institution to express belief in a divine power," the power we believe in is the Force. Our doctrine lists our tenets, code, teachings, practices and core values or ethics. The doctrine is the foundation of our beliefs and judgement (for most of us) so while there is a lot of communal sentiment here on things outside that doctrine (some about it too, sure), the doctrine itself contains very solid concepts.

So the preferable alternative in your opinion is perhaps no official doctrine?

No, there needs to be a clear doctrine that brings everyone together in a religion I think. I was just saying that since we explore many religions, philosophies and ideas we may be able to relate to and understand a more variety of people involving the complex issues of religion, philosophy, psychology, etc. I'm not on a high horse and thinking to stay with one faith is bad, because by adhering to your original faith or one you become involved with dedication, you might have a more intense and complete experience of that religion that can be very positive for you. Compare that to constantly jumping around looking and hoping for something perfect to believe in like some people I know. It's a personal choice for everyone to decide if they will follow something like a faith, religious doctrine, philosophy or a set of ideas. It all depends on what one is looking for, if they're looking for anything at all as I'm sure there's plenty of people just not interested in this sort of thing.

Then this is hardly anything more than telling people to go research something which they could have done on their own without such an institution. But if someone is aiding them, who is? And what is the standard for aiding/teaching "initiates"? Logically there must be some sort of standard in an institution that claims to be religious as this one does on the homepage.

Of course they could have done it on their own, but what's more than that is we are all doing the same thing together which offers us all a chance to share, learn and reflect on other's experiences and ideas as we all move forward together with whatever else we are doing.

There is a standard and even a degree scheme, however me being just an apprentice I'm not exactly aware of the standards other than that when you complete the IP you're eligble for apprenticeship. A Knight comes along and reads your material and decides whether or not it's a good match and if so you begin. You basically then go on a shared learning journey with them that is meant to last years. The Knight assigns the Apprentice lessons whatever it may be, reading a book, listening to a lecture or watching a movie and writing about it. Writing your interpretation of various material, sharing observations and expressing your feelings about whatever it is. Each Knight has their own way of teaching and giving lessons, some may personalize it entirely on the individual, some may have a set syllabus for all their students. A Knight or someone should be able to clarify exact standards and the basic outline for the system that which is what or how much determines a member's advancement.

It's hardly genuine doctrine if it uses terms that nobody can seem to define in any collectively agreed and objective way. You could equally put a nonsense word like "shperlg" in place of "The Force" and it would make no difference.

Have you read the doctrine? I think it is very clear and defines itself. Interpretations of it may differ slightly but that's like in any other religion. There are questions about it often, and each Jedi can give their basic understanding of it and how it applies to them but like anything else it's up to the individual to decide for themself how to apply the doctrine to their life as their life is different but the doctrine offers a general outlook for various situations and behavior that could work for anyone in a sense. I don't think "shperlg" would work, I mean if you defined "shperlg" with the same definition as the Force, sure I guess you could be right, but also the world force by itself implies the definition itself due to it's image and original meaning.

Pure conjecture and even if you take the discredited argument that Jesus was fictional, he was not a children's film series.

Can you explain to me what that "way" is? I'm still quite unsure.

When you examine the book used to tell the story of Jesus it uses symbols, metaphors, experiences to empart knowledge of morals, traditions, ethics, struggle, psychology, philosophy, basically material about life and like other holy books it has it's own ideas about what's right and wrong through stories. While Star Wars may have been directed at children it doesn't mean it was just for children only, there still plenty of complex subjects that actual children may not even understand, specifically the political climate of the Star Wars movies. A child might not be able to relate to or fully comprehend the overall themes of the movie, the empire, the rebellion, the battle between totalitarianism and liberty, the spiritual battle between dark and light, how individuals choose to act and live in such a climate.

Conjecture maybe, but that idea and "the way" has to do with how people interpreted only what Jesus supposedly said and non-Christian accounts/witnesses of the guy and what he did. Through all the metaphors he could've just been a good guy, acting with a conscious awareness of what was going on around him, that led him to do and say things that surprised and inspired people. All the dogma surrounding him like the virgin birth, ressurection, blah blah blah only seems to have came after the Holy Roman Catholic Church was formed and they masked their own religion with the story of Christ to continue their own worship and rituals.

A vast majority of websites, articles, facebook groups, and other pages online would say otherwise.

Yes but it should be distinguished that we are not that vast majority. I've been here for 5 years and I haven't read much about anyone wishing that we could have churches everywhere, political recognition on a mass scale, like on an evangelical level. Yes there is that census ordeal which some were definitely joking and pushing it along because of the Star Wars connection, but there sure is a vast majority of people who do feel they can honestly identify with Jediism whether they specifically roleplay like in the movies or they just take the ideas and apply it to real life without roleplaying. We would all love to have real temples in our own countries to congregate. I just don't see it being pushed but maybe since I personally don't care much about all that I could just be ignorant of it happening here.

What definition did it use to gain this national recognition?

According to the IRS, "Organizations exempt under IRC Section 5O1-(c) (3) are further classified as either public charities or private foundations. We determined you're a public charity under the IRC Section Listed at the top of this letter." I'm not specifically aware of what they used. But I thought that those becoming ministers here actually become officially licensed too.

By making this statement you are making a making a rather hubristic statement about religions and adherents of certain religious groups. Is this what was intended by including that particular book by Campbell?

Well Campbell made that exact statement in an interview. Hubristic? Sure. Of course it doesn't negate the fact that religions are also unique traditions and ethics that were tailored to or for usually a certain group of people at a specific time in history. The problem today especially with children is that these stories, these traditions and yes metaphors have a hard time being relevant and appealing for the younger generations. If you go through Campbell's works he obviously has very much respect for religions and even the primitve cultures and their ideas. He analyzes a lot of it but of course it's from his perspective, his perspective and the story of Perennialism is quite interesting in my opinion because it tells a lot about how everyone's faith is similar and again the violence that comes about from disagreements and misunderstandings with each other's faith is one of the biggest issues we live with and our ancestors lived with and even died for too. The part in the IP dealing with Campbell is a series of lectures entitled The Power of Myth.

So am I to make of this that Jediism is some sort of syncretic faith?

You could. According to Br. John who is a Bishop, "You could truthfully say it's a form of Zen-Gnostic-Taoist-Universalism." V-Tog said that for years she described it to people as, "Adapted Taoism with roots in mythology and comparative religion."

Can you explain what you mean by this?

Humans have the same body structures and systems. We go through and are susceptible to similar psychological patterns, emotions and feelings. We participate in the same social structures like churches, schools, jobs, recreational activities.

Did you just read this in a Deepak Chopra book? What is a polarity to you? What is a "frequency matrix" to you or a frequency in general? I'd really like to know what you mean by these things.

I don't even know who Deepak Chopra is. A polarity to me is it's definition, I used it in the context of meaning positive and negative and neutral being all separate poles or ends of a spectrum that influence and/or determine a fundamental feature or characteristic of something, anything that differs from the others. When I am saying frequency I mean like frequencies of sound, light or electricity, a frequency matrix being our field of existence created of, influenced and perceived by interacting frequencies in a "biophysicalelectromagnetic" way. Sounds pretty New Agey or really nerdy like a preacher of quantum physics I know.

But to me if that's the purpose of a lot of people here, doesn't it just seem like an adult playing dress-up games if they call themselves a "Jedi" too?

Maybe if they're dressing up with all the stuff in the doctrine, ideas and concepts discussed here? Which of course could be just a game to them to have a debate or discussion, try to find something out or try to tell people about something. There are plenty of people here who are not claiming themselves to be Jedi and don't do the IP or join officially but are just here for the discussions and kinship. There are people to who also get dressed up and pretend to be Star Wars Jedi.

If the entire religion is just about people exploring ideas with no base whatsoever, then it isn't a religion in the slightest.

Ah but most of us here might be exploring and interacting with the base of the doctrine, no?

What is the Force? What does it mean to "embrace it"?

In short, the general consensus is that it is just the connectedness and interdependence of the universe, planets, our environment, humans and our lives, inner mental and biology working, just the Force of life I suppose, which in it's dualistic nature could be simplified into consciousness and unconsciousness in regards to everything from living to non living, right and wrong, whatever.

Which makes things destructive or constructive? Which one is better and why?

Depends, what's good for everyone or what's good for you, what's good for long term what's good for short term, all of this stuff has been debated and debated since the beginning of time. Like I said it can be entirely subjective, sometimes destruction is just a natural process or even a positive one, you have to break things down to rebuild sometime. I don't have moral superiority here and my thoughts and opinions I'm talking to you about do not represent the opinions and beliefs of this organization or everyone here.

Despite Reneza's faults this discussion has been of a particular quality.
My fellow Jedi have each acquitted themselves here with integrity and patience.
There were some new (to me) voices who wrote thoughtful and sincere posts.
And as always, my fellow Knights each demonstrated those ethical qualities and insightful wisdom that makes this Temple one of my favorite places.

Thank you.