- Posts: 5892
Some questions from a passer-by
Full Definition of religion
1a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion>
b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
it is by these that i feel jediism can be seen as a religion, and while i can't speak for everyone, i'm sure most will agree...
a personal set of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices... a cause, principle or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith....
- Posts: 14625
Jestor wrote: Im sorry, "whats about"?
"Jediism"" It's clearly not about that though. It's about a self-proclaimed religious organization defining what its members actually believe."
Crazy, I was talking about TOTJO, and somehow you flipped it to that? :blink: :dry:
Jestor wrote: Well, thank you for letting us know our motives...
Well, few others wish to tell me, so what else am I supposed to do other than deduce from what I read here?
You know what happens when you assume, "right"?
Jestor wrote: syncretic ideology... Need ideology too?
That makes more sense, thank you. No need for the latter part.
Jestor wrote: IM not worried about labels...
You sure are, lol...
If by labels you mean words with definitions then yes. I prefer if when people claimed they were something, they were able to define it.
Yea, thats part of your trouble, lol...
Gotta define everything, gotta figure out the puzzles, gotta know, gotta seek... lol...
Jestor wrote: Jediism is however you are defining it for you... Its why you wont understand from the seat you are in, lol...
By what you say, it literally has no meaning.
Life doesnt, you are aware of that too, right?
The only meaning in anything, is that which we give it... lol...
Jestor wrote: Thats twice now you have suggested I was insulting...
The text speaks for itself.
Well, two thoughts...
One, maybe I need to work on speaking with those who are easily offended... I used to put a disclaimer in my signature for those with weak consittutions...
Two, you are just having fun with us...
Three, actually, you suffer from an 'interrogator drama major', with a 'poor me drama minor'...
Jestor wrote: Cause you would fall into the "non-jedi' people... and I would fall into the other...
So what is the line between Jedi and non-Jedi?
Similar to the line between sunup, and sundown...
Jestor wrote: No, you need to try heroin to understand what it feels like...
So how do I "try" Jediism?
Act like a Jedi...
Picture the perfect Jedi in your mind...
Be that person...
Jestor wrote: There are plenty of studies that tell show you it can kill you...
There are also countless things online that would suggest that Jediism is not much more than playing dress-ups and role playing but I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt by asking you people what you believe.
And I think we are accomidating you, lol...
Cause,you know, if I can influence one life positively, yada, yada...
You may be 'the one' for me...
Jestor wrote: You have to figure that out for yourself, lol...
Then it's meaningless. But plenty of people have given vague definitions at least. Is it difficult for you to give at least one?
One? "Dont be a dick..."
Jestor wrote: The founders of this temple did..
Ok, but then it doesn't sound really universal then but rather chauvinistic.
Jestor wrote: Please tell us what a religion is, from a agreed upon source...
I didn't start this thread to do so and I don't see how it would help at all.
YOu said we were not a religion, we say we are...
You have been, quite frankly, rude and dismissive in a way that is either deliberate or smacks of an astonishing lack of self-awareness. I realize you may find this insulting, but there it is. I would like you to try to understand something:
We do not go looking for converts. We do not evangelize. When people come, we welcome them. When they leave we wish them well. Each of us serves in the world in our own way, led by our own consciences. We did not come looking for you. When you showed up and demanded answers without being willing to put any discernable work into understanding what goes on here, a great deal of time was spent explaining our endeavor. We did it because the subject matter is dear to us and because we are sympathetic to curiosity and the desire for insight. We all started as seekers. We are all still seekers. We gave you the answers we gave you. If you don't like them, we do not owe you answers that suit your preferences. Strictly speaking, you were not owed the answers that you did get.
I may be wrong (I often am), but you give no appearance of any sincere effort to understand. You seem to have come to argue. If you did sincerely try to understand, and failed, then I apologize. Between you aparent unwillingness to meet us halfway and your general lack of civility, I do not see how this can go any farther. And it is a shame. You seem both bright and driven. I'm sure we all could have learned a great deal from each other. Just, not today.
Take excellent care of yourself, Reneza. When you actually want to talk and listen, I look forward to it.
Reneza wrote: The search engine says this which I'm rather happy with: the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods or a particular system of faith and worship.
the search engine gave you something convenient, but not comprehensive
it is accepted by scholars that there is no single definition of the word "religion"
well, the scholars that teach at my community college anyway, primarily this guy (why he got such a low score for "easiness" i dont know - all you had to do was show up, pay attention, and read what he told you to read)
but if you dont trust him, what about this place?
"Definitions of religion tend to suffer from one of two problems: they are either too narrow and exclude many belief systems which most agree are religious, or they are too vague and ambiguous, suggesting that just about anything and everything is a religion."
"Mircea Eliade defined religion in reference to a focus on "the sacred," and that is a good replacement for "supernatural beings" because not every religion revolves around the supernatural."
anyway, to say "this is not a religion" because it doesnt meet the standard that you yourself have set, which is not a standard accepted by those who have spent their entire lifetimes studying religions, does not actually negate that it fills the role of religion in the lives of many people
if something fills that role, who am i, or who who are you, to say that its not a religion?
you mentioned the nicene creed - what you didnt mention was that it was established in 325 aka close to 300 years after the estimated death of jesus
(i dont think totjo has had even 30 years to sort itself out, so we're doing ok)
nor did you mention the reason it was necessary - because of the varied interpretations of what it meant to be christian at the time, by the people who were alive during the early years of christianity
imo, and i think history does not much contradict this, the fact that rome itself had a vested interest in the final results was as relevant to the chosen interpretation as any individuals religious piety or scholarliness
and for that matter, a religion's doctrine is codified by the people who practice the religion: they could just as easily say "our god is beyond precise definition, but we use such and such language to relate to it because it is functional and convenient for us to do so" and that would be accepted today
fundamental to the idea of the tao is that it is not definable - this is like the first page of the tao te ching
i take a slight exception to your definition of "myth"
Reneza wrote: I understand what you're coming from so perhaps I can define what I mean by myth as it means to most modern people in English, although not the strict original definition: "fictional story that may or may not contain actual historic fact, but used to explain a particular concept." This is the definition used by Campbell in his book.
my objection is the use of the word "concept" - i feel this is not hitting the heart of the matter
myths are used to express existential truths - all myths are true
in the sense that they tell us something that is true about ourselves, or our times, or at least, the about people who created them
its bigger than mere "concepts"
and no here really needs the benefit of your doubt - some of the things youve said are easily taken as insulting, maybe you dont mean them that way
i am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you dont
but i am curious where you want to go from here
youre not going to convince anyone here of -- anything probably
are you trying to?
if you dont think "jediism" is a valid religion, then by all means, dont adopt it
i do believe the questions and points you raise are good for totjo to face - im curious however if youre open to the possibility that what we have here actually works, imperfect as it may be?
and if it does work, are you just taking an opportunity to tip someones cart and spill their goods?
I dont know many who see the Sith path as a religious one. I think maybe one group? A few scattered individuals.
The main difference is where Jedi see Jedi as the goal, Sith, the path, is a means to an end, of achieving ones goals. So, as to where a fireman wants to be a fireman, or a Jedi wants to be a Jedi, a Sith wants...Whatever that Sith wants( This is a specific passion, that each Sith decides for oneself) and the path is a means to end of achieving that. It is not a goal in and of itself.
Defined by a method of progression laid out by the code, and then the more intricate tools needed to achieve ones goals further refined as ones passion(goals) become more specific.
I dont really give the Force much thought at all, as it seems really to vague a concept, and if it does exist, by any description I have heard, well, its a bit beyond my pay grade.
Some sort of omnipresent, possibly sentient, possibly not, etc,etc....
I just went cross-eyed.
What I believe in is life, and death.
I only have so many years on this earth, and there is no way to tell how long that is, but by all I have seen and witnessed in the medical field, it does end, and it is indiscriminate of race, creed, or time.
So, before my life account runs out, I am going to spend my time achieving what I want. To produce positive feedback loops within my sphere of influence, at which I, am the center.
As for the Dark Side.
The best I can explain it is...Sort of like a preferred genre of music.
I dont like country, but I do like classic rock. Well, thats a bit vague considering that music I listened to as a kid is now considered as such....
Still, I think you get the point.
I can get a bit more specific, but only so much as you dont become boring. As my time is precious to me, and I couldnt possibly care less if at the end of MY interest, your still hung up on how my path works or is defined.