Some questions from a passer-by

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8 years 4 months ago #219746 by TheDude

Reneza wrote: Yes, Socratic dialog is extremely important and it's what I'm trying to establish here among others and myself. Nevertheless, you are right that philosophy courses do this, but a philosophy class does not claim to be a religion in and of itself.

Neither do all Jedi, to my knowledge. There is open discussion as to whether Jediism should be considered a religion, legally or categorically, or if it should be seen as a philosophical system; after being in this community for nearly a year, I’ve come to see differences of opinion on this matter on this website as well as in other places.

This is all well and good, but you're just providing more evidence that this organization is sort of just a eclectic learning platform rather than a religion in its own right as it claims to be.

Insofar as I have come to know religion, a religion offers a code of conduct and a metaphysical explanation for something. For Taoists, there is no afterlife really spoken of in the traditional texts; for Buddhists, there is no dogmatic creation story. TOTJO and Jediism in general meet the qualification in my opinion, providing a code of conduct through the doctrine and a metaphysics through the Force. There can be disagreement on the nature of the Force, but that only means that Jedi are more open to discussion than some more dogmatic religious traditions.

Atheism is heavily intertwined with scientific method because it only accepts things measurable by said method of being worthy of any consideration or belief. They rejected God/gods because to them they were absurd/meaningless/un-measurable concepts. You are kidding yourself if you think atheism is not heavily reliant on only accepting measurable (scientific) things.

I do believe this to be the case while analyzing Atheism categorically or historically. The problem of evil has been used as philosophical justification for rejecting God(s), some say since Epicurus, from only an ethical point of view. If a child is born into an Atheistic family and never is taught anything of any Gods, thereby not holding any belief in Gods, that child is an Atheist regardless of their opinions or knowledge of scientific concepts. Atheism is not an organized belief system by any means. The only thing you can know from the statement “I am an Atheist” is that the person saying so doesn’t believe in any Gods; you do not have the information necessary from that statement to understand their reasoning for not believing in Gods.
Advaita Vedanta Hindus, for example, believe in a non-reductive monistic force called Brahman, and do not believe in any Gods. They’re Atheists.

Yes, but this is not what Campbell means by myth though. He does not mean superficial appearance in the form of funeral practices, but rather myth as story-driven explanation of why/how things exist in the world as they are.

And he held that all of those myths were useful, that problems came to be when people took them literally. What makes taking inspiration from Star Wars, a film, any different from taking inspiration from the Hindu Vedas, a play?

May I ask then, do you call yourself a "Jedi"? and if so, what does it mean to you? Do you consider it your religion? If so, why?


I do, because I believe in the Force as a monistic entity akin to the Advaita Vedanta Brahman while at the same time recognizing the duality proposed by Taoism and the world of appearances berated by Idealism and Nietzschean metaphysics. Jediism encompasses those beliefs while presenting a mythology which I can take inspiration from, and frankly it’s easier than saying eclectic-religion-based-on-various-Eastern-and-Western-religious-and-philosophical-traditions. If the only issue is with the term “Jediism”, I’m afraid that it’s a pretty pointless semantic issue for which we can just look to pragmatism for an answer.

Surely you can understand why someone coming into it would assume such? Especially since the site within its maxims mentions "the Force" but fails to define it in any meaningful way.


Yeah, I can see how someone would assume so, and it may be reasonable to do so, but first impressions are often wrong and I would encourage anyone making such assumptions to set them aside and look further into the subject before passing any judgment. Defining the Force is highly personal and part of each individual’s path, and a lack of a definition is, as far as I can tell, intentional by the site designers. Ultimately the only accepted rule of Jediism is to believe in the Force, but it’s up to the individual to understand what that means. Nietzsche never gave a clear definition of the “superman”, and I don’t see clear definitions of things like “right understanding” from the Buddhists, despite it being an integral part of the eightfold path.

I have read much of Alan Watts, but are you suggested that Jediism is in fact "Alan Wattsism"? If not, why mention him?

Probably because Alan Watts’s entire body of work was derivative from eastern philosophy and religion. I don’t particularly look to him for any inspiration, he just seems to be good at simply stating eastern ideas in plain English. In doing so, his books and lectures are tools that can be used – but not primary sources of inspiration. To be honest, I don't much care for him, and prefer to go to the older source material. Tao Te Ching is a good read, anyway.

Yes, but I'd like to know what the Jedi faith defines its ethics/metaphysics (if applicable) as and from what type of logic it comes.


That’s widely the purpose of the site acting as an open forum. People’s journals are open to view and everyone is encouraged to discuss what they want. Rather than dogmatic principles, dialogue is used more often than not to understand both the ethics and metaphysics of Jediism. I could, for example, say that by my definition of the Force as a non-divisible monistic entity through which all things exist in an illusory fashion, killing someone isn’t necessarily wrong because it would just be a change in the way that the Force is expressed and, anyway, they were illusory. And while justifiable if the premise of those metaphysics are accepted, it would be a practical nightmare – so discussion is necessary. My definition of the Force should, too, be open to debate so that those things which stem from that definition won’t be problematic.

So is Jediism actually just Taoism with Star Wars dress-up games? You mention a lot of these things yet I don't see how it has anything to do with Jediism since none of these things are listed as official doctrine.


You say that as if it’s a bad thing! But really, Jediism either does or doesn’t have anything to do with Taoism, depending on who you ask. It’s a new religion, anyway; there isn’t absolutely clear consensus on anything at all. The other religions have had a much longer time to get all of their ideas together into one package, and if Jediism sticks around – I hope it does – then maybe what you’re looking for will exist eventually.
Even the official doctrine isn’t official. It changes, and different Jedi communities have different ideals. Some take the fiction very seriously. Others, like me, don’t. I find the mythology of Star Wars being used as a tool to represent ancient ideas to be an effective method for spiritual growth, so that’s good enough for me.
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8 years 4 months ago #219750 by
Replied by on topic Some questions from a passer-by
Force has many definitions

Here are some definitions:
noun: force; - a person or thing regarded as exerting power or influence
- mental or moral strength or power
- the powerful effect of something

That is just a few definitions, now they are literal definitions. To me the Force represents the energy of the universe, it exerts power and influence. How we use that influence can determine things in our lives, like anger turning into violence, love turning into stalking, and so on. Through knowledge we can use that influence to better ourselves and those around us. A simple example, I remember the first time I stepped on Lego, I screamed and it hurt more than anything. So I use that knowledge and pass it on to those around me so they don't step on it.

I view the Force as an invisible energy, and as per the law of conservation of energy; Energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it transforms from one form to another. So I believe when I die, the energy that forms me will be transformed back into the Force and I will become part of it. What happens after that? I don't know, but I'm sure it will be interesting. And as my knowledge grows, as will my interpretation of what the Force is and does.

May the Force be with you
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8 years 4 months ago - 8 years 4 months ago #219772 by
Replied by on topic Some questions from a passer-by

Desolous wrote: I agree with the assessment of Firewolf and Adder. This 'conversation' has gone on long enough.


Just stop putting fuel on the fire. You know what he wants he tweaks you by always having the last word. IMHO :)

Internet troll
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Trolling" redirects here. For other uses, see Troll (disambiguation).
"Please do not feed the troll" redirects here. For the Wikipedia advice, see Wikipedia:Deny recognition.

Don't feed the trolls sign, near Fløyen, Bergen, Norway
In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion,[3] often for their own amusement.

Psychological characteristics
Two studies published in 2013 and 2014 have found that people who are identified as trolls tend to have dark personality traits and show signs of sadism, antisocial behavior, psychopathy, and machiavellianism.[42][43] The 2013 study suggested that there are a number of similarities between anti-social and flame trolling activities[42] and the 2014 study suggested that the noxious personality characteristics known as the "dark triad of personality" should be investigated in the analysis of trolling, and concluded that trolling appears "to be an Internet manifestation of everyday sadism."[43] Their relevance is suggested by research linking these traits to bullying in both adolescents and adults. The 2014 study found that trolls operate as agents of chaos on the Internet, exploiting hot-button issues to make users appear overly emotional or foolish in some manner. If an unfortunate person falls into their trap, trolling intensifies for further, merciless amusement. This is why novice Internet users are routinely admonished, "Do not feed the trolls!" The 2013 study found that trolls often have a high expectation of what it means to be successful, which is higher than they are able to attain, and this results in them resenting others who think they are successful but who fall below their standards.


Have a nice day. Peace :)
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8 years 4 months ago #219773 by
Replied by on topic Some questions from a passer-by
#constructive meta ontopic

On Jedi discourse guidelines thread we, for now, agreed only on ~this:

"Brevity is a sister of talent"
-- A.P. Chekhov

:)
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8 years 4 months ago #219778 by Jestor
There was a man, we shall call him Zenera...

He went to a small village, and demanded proof of their God...

And despite many attempts, from many of the brightest the village had to offer, and even the village "clown", no answer was good enough...

"Can you not even provide me proof so I too, may fall to my knees in awe? How difficult a task could it be? Your answers hold, no merit, not meat... Since you cannot answer me, I must take all you have told me, and my vast intelligence, and make my own conclusion that you are "mad" (he meant 'crazy', but they talked like that in the days of old), liars, or children believing in fairie tales! Your words have no weight!" Zenera exclaimed...

After a pause, the village idiot, Nestor, (There was another called Nestor, he was the son of Neleus and Chloris and the King of Pylos. He became king after Heracles killed Neleus and all of Nestor's siblings... , this is a different Nestor) says out loud, to the wind, wonderingly:

"As you must use your intelligence to formulate your own answers about the things we have said, so do we about our wondrous God...

We cannot understand the language he/she speaks, but rather have to look to the clues he (probably 'she', due to superior intelligence) shows us...

So, trying to take all the information we are provided, we have formulated our answers the best we can...

Then, we try to explain our answers to others, they do not speak the same language as we do, as they come from other villages, we have yet further breakdowns, and misunderstandings...."

To Zerera, he said, "Just as you must try to make you own understanding of our ways and customs, so must we about our God... Can u you understand this? Does this 'click the light bulb'?"

On walk-about...

Sith ain't Evil...
Jedi ain't Saints....


"Bake or bake not. There is no fry" - Sean Ching


Rite: PureLand
Former Memeber of the TOTJO Council
Master: Jasper_Ward
Current Apprentices: Viskhard, DanWerts, Llama Su, Trisskar
Former Apprentices: Knight Learn_To_Know, Knight Edan, Knight Brenna, Knight Madhatter
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8 years 4 months ago #219783 by Jestor

(I wrote this, and got interrupted, and can see nothing past my own post with the story, and it has been 30 minutes... Hopefully this is still timely, lol...)


Rickie wrote:

Desolous wrote: I agree with the assessment of Firewolf and Adder. This 'conversation' has gone on long enough.


Just stop putting fuel on the fire. You know what he wants he tweaks you by always having the last word. IMHO :)


Warning: Spoiler!


Have a nice day. Peace :)


YOu know, when people are having a conversation in a public area, people are free to walk away, trun to their phone, or simply tune things out, and think about dinner...

No one forces (lol) anyone to read, or participate... :)

Do you know how many I skip?

THis one intersts me, and like a conversation in real life, I dont feel I am done...

When we are trying to understand our 'anger, and we get pushed, and pushed, to the point of having to control it for fear of going to jail, or some other action....

It is like hitting the wall...

You get so worked up, so pissed, so mad, that at the climax, you either snap (few really do) or, you collapse in upon yourself in resignation that you cannot control the situation, 'deal with it'...

On the internet, we can 'lock' a thread, and MAKE people shut up in t... At least for that thread...

But, if we were treat the internet like the real world, then you just have to learn to ignore the attempts of people to irritate you, and push your buttons...

I recieved an PM saying how' my sarcasm was epic' or something... IM not being sarcastic...

Ok, the last 'story' might have been a touch, but mostly, I was going tit-for tat- against a person ina conversation...

This is called debate, it can get heated, ugly... But, as long as no name calling is done, it is ok...

On walk-about...

Sith ain't Evil...
Jedi ain't Saints....


"Bake or bake not. There is no fry" - Sean Ching


Rite: PureLand
Former Memeber of the TOTJO Council
Master: Jasper_Ward
Current Apprentices: Viskhard, DanWerts, Llama Su, Trisskar
Former Apprentices: Knight Learn_To_Know, Knight Edan, Knight Brenna, Knight Madhatter
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8 years 4 months ago #219784 by Jestor

den385 wrote: #constructive meta ontopic

On Jedi discourse guidelines thread we, for now, agreed only on ~this:

"Brevity is a sister of talent"
-- A.P. Chekhov

:)


While this has its place, if no-one says anything, what kind of results will we ever have?

There must be balance...

Sometimes, much must be said, sometimes, nothing must be said...

And, these times are different for each of us...:)

On walk-about...

Sith ain't Evil...
Jedi ain't Saints....


"Bake or bake not. There is no fry" - Sean Ching


Rite: PureLand
Former Memeber of the TOTJO Council
Master: Jasper_Ward
Current Apprentices: Viskhard, DanWerts, Llama Su, Trisskar
Former Apprentices: Knight Learn_To_Know, Knight Edan, Knight Brenna, Knight Madhatter
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8 years 4 months ago - 8 years 4 months ago #219795 by
Replied by on topic Some questions from a passer-by
As much as I know of fictional trolls, their job is to sit under the bridge and repair it. Good ones do it. Bad trolls, on the other hand, go rogue and start eating people at will. Just wanted to defend the rights of good trolls. :)

Rickie wrote: Just stop putting fuel on the fire. You know what he wants he tweaks you by always having the last word. IMHO :)

IMO. My 82yo grand father always lets his wife to have the last word, if she is too irritated. Maybe even the last laugh. I guess, he is content with having the last choice and the last act.
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8 years 4 months ago #219841 by
Replied by on topic Some questions from a passer-by
Just expressing my opinion like so many others. That was one of my longest post in some time.
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8 years 4 months ago - 8 years 4 months ago #219850 by
Replied by on topic Some questions from a passer-by
@Rickie, wikipedia article is a good starting point. We can learn much from others' experience. Thanx :)

Jimbo is with us!

Warning: Spoiler!
Last edit: 8 years 4 months ago by .
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