Some questions from a passer-by

To me, the Force is the Source - the stuff of Life, synonymous with Love - all that the source created is real and the source is the force behind all of life - it will always be with you it is part of you. You can use it by aligning yourself with it, or misuse it by denying it.

Not religious. Agnostic by default. Proud Sith.

I dont know many who see the Sith path as a religious one. I think maybe one group? A few scattered individuals.

The main difference is where Jedi see Jedi as the goal, Sith, the path, is a means to an end, of achieving ones goals. So, as to where a fireman wants to be a fireman, or a Jedi wants to be a Jedi, a Sith wants...Whatever that Sith wants( This is a specific passion, that each Sith decides for oneself) and the path is a means to end of achieving that. It is not a goal in and of itself.

Defined by a method of progression laid out by the code, and then the more intricate tools needed to achieve ones goals further refined as ones passion(goals) become more specific.

I dont really give the Force much thought at all, as it seems really to vague a concept, and if it does exist, by any description I have heard, well, its a bit beyond my pay grade.

Some sort of omnipresent, possibly sentient, possibly not, etc,etc....

I just went cross-eyed.

What I believe in is life, and death.

I only have so many years on this earth, and there is no way to tell how long that is, but by all I have seen and witnessed in the medical field, it does end, and it is indiscriminate of race, creed, or time.

So, before my life account runs out, I am going to spend my time achieving what I want. To produce positive feedback loops within my sphere of influence, at which I, am the center.

As for the Dark Side.

The best I can explain it is...Sort of like a preferred genre of music.

I dont like country, but I do like classic rock. Well, thats a bit vague considering that music I listened to as a kid is now considered as such....

Still, I think you get the point.

I can get a bit more specific, but only so much as you dont become boring. As my time is precious to me, and I couldnt possibly care less if at the end of MY interest, your still hung up on how my path works or is defined.

Reneza,

It seems you are having trouble in understanding the explanations. It is a hard thing to pin down especially when you require clinical definitions to something that cannot be described. However lets just take one aspect of this and see if we can quantify it for you. this is my definition of "The Force". Let me know what you think.

The term “The Force” is simply a poetic label we assign to the emotion we feel and the beauty we derive from our connection to each other.

For some this connection might be interpreted as supernatural in the idea that The Force is an esoteric or otherwise subtle energy field that is outside the 4 quantum forces of nature and is an emergent property of physical life itself. This would be analogous to our consciousness being an emergent property of the function of our physical brains. Something not quite fully explained by science. This falls completely into the realm of faith however.

For others this connection is interpreted in a more natural form within the laws of the universe. Those aspects being the very idea that we are all evolved from a single ancient form of life that emerged from a set of elements created out of the same stardust that emerged into existence in a single event called the big bang. We are literally the stuff of stars and the ratios of elements we find in the universe are the same ratios we find in ourselves. There is something we find beautiful in that.

No matter what form you ascribe to, all existence is energy and energy is just energy. It has no opinions and it is not aware of itself nor does it feel. It is us as humans that feel. We too are not good or bad but simply human. And in that we are capable of good or evil acts. It is not the energy that is light or dark. It is the way it is used by us as humans. Energy in this sense can either be that esoteric energy above that some draw a strength from either imagined or real through faith or it can be simply the fuel we derive from the food we ate that allows us to move and interact with this corporeal world.

Even the matter of our bodies is just a form of energy. These are the things that connect us and for some of us we find great majesty in that. An awe and a wonder that deeply moves us. It is not a logical thing but one of deep emotion. The particular terms and descriptions we use to describe these emotions we feel for this connection make up our mythology. And the poetic label of the central theme of this mythology we call “The Force”. And because we are pack creatures and derive pleasure in shared experience we come together to celebrate and share these emotions and we call it our spirituality.

EDIT: I meant to quote this too;

The main difference is where Jedi see Jedi as the goal, Sith, the path,

==============================

fireman wants to be a fireman, or a Jedi wants to be a Jed

Gonna have to disagree with ya here buddy..

Most Jedi want the world to be a better place... Although, what that means, and how to achieve it, differs...

If I had to generalize, I mean...

Since we are all generalizing... lol...

We (Jedi) like being lumped together about as much as anyone else... :lol:

The fireman, may be following a family tradition, and would prefer to make furniture... lol...

I think I'm coming to a pretty solid conclusion that the Jedi faith really is based on communal sentiment rather than any solid concepts.

There's a few other Jedi groups out there I heard, as well as many individuals who just proclaim to be Jedis as they relate to the movies. Our group here has a solid doctrine and a ritual process dealing with membership, a hierarchy with a leadership or council, the traditions of basically learning, discussing, self-exploration and reflection. If religion is just "a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny," or "an institution to express belief in a divine power," the power we believe in is the Force. Our doctrine lists our tenets, code, teachings, practices and core values or ethics. The doctrine is the foundation of our beliefs and judgement (for most of us) so while there is a lot of communal sentiment here on things outside that doctrine (some about it too, sure), the doctrine itself contains very solid concepts.

So the preferable alternative in your opinion is perhaps no official doctrine?

No, there needs to be a clear doctrine that brings everyone together in a religion I think. I was just saying that since we explore many religions, philosophies and ideas we may be able to relate to and understand a more variety of people involving the complex issues of religion, philosophy, psychology, etc. I'm not on a high horse and thinking to stay with one faith is bad, because by adhering to your original faith or one you become involved with dedication, you might have a more intense and complete experience of that religion that can be very positive for you. Compare that to constantly jumping around looking and hoping for something perfect to believe in like some people I know. It's a personal choice for everyone to decide if they will follow something like a faith, religious doctrine, philosophy or a set of ideas. It all depends on what one is looking for, if they're looking for anything at all as I'm sure there's plenty of people just not interested in this sort of thing.

Then this is hardly anything more than telling people to go research something which they could have done on their own without such an institution. But if someone is aiding them, who is? And what is the standard for aiding/teaching "initiates"? Logically there must be some sort of standard in an institution that claims to be religious as this one does on the homepage.

Of course they could have done it on their own, but what's more than that is we are all doing the same thing together which offers us all a chance to share, learn and reflect on other's experiences and ideas as we all move forward together with whatever else we are doing.

There is a standard and even a degree scheme, however me being just an apprentice I'm not exactly aware of the standards other than that when you complete the IP you're eligble for apprenticeship. A Knight comes along and reads your material and decides whether or not it's a good match and if so you begin. You basically then go on a shared learning journey with them that is meant to last years. The Knight assigns the Apprentice lessons whatever it may be, reading a book, listening to a lecture or watching a movie and writing about it. Writing your interpretation of various material, sharing observations and expressing your feelings about whatever it is. Each Knight has their own way of teaching and giving lessons, some may personalize it entirely on the individual, some may have a set syllabus for all their students. A Knight or someone should be able to clarify exact standards and the basic outline for the system that which is what or how much determines a member's advancement.

It's hardly genuine doctrine if it uses terms that nobody can seem to define in any collectively agreed and objective way. You could equally put a nonsense word like "shperlg" in place of "The Force" and it would make no difference.

Have you read the doctrine? I think it is very clear and defines itself. Interpretations of it may differ slightly but that's like in any other religion. There are questions about it often, and each Jedi can give their basic understanding of it and how it applies to them but like anything else it's up to the individual to decide for themself how to apply the doctrine to their life as their life is different but the doctrine offers a general outlook for various situations and behavior that could work for anyone in a sense. I don't think "shperlg" would work, I mean if you defined "shperlg" with the same definition as the Force, sure I guess you could be right, but also the world force by itself implies the definition itself due to it's image and original meaning.

Pure conjecture and even if you take the discredited argument that Jesus was fictional, he was not a children's film series.

Can you explain to me what that "way" is? I'm still quite unsure.

When you examine the book used to tell the story of Jesus it uses symbols, metaphors, experiences to empart knowledge of morals, traditions, ethics, struggle, psychology, philosophy, basically material about life and like other holy books it has it's own ideas about what's right and wrong through stories. While Star Wars may have been directed at children it doesn't mean it was just for children only, there still plenty of complex subjects that actual children may not even understand, specifically the political climate of the Star Wars movies. A child might not be able to relate to or fully comprehend the overall themes of the movie, the empire, the rebellion, the battle between totalitarianism and liberty, the spiritual battle between dark and light, how individuals choose to act and live in such a climate.

Conjecture maybe, but that idea and "the way" has to do with how people interpreted only what Jesus supposedly said and non-Christian accounts/witnesses of the guy and what he did. Through all the metaphors he could've just been a good guy, acting with a conscious awareness of what was going on around him, that led him to do and say things that surprised and inspired people. All the dogma surrounding him like the virgin birth, ressurection, blah blah blah only seems to have came after the Holy Roman Catholic Church was formed and they masked their own religion with the story of Christ to continue their own worship and rituals.

A vast majority of websites, articles, facebook groups, and other pages online would say otherwise.

Yes but it should be distinguished that we are not that vast majority. I've been here for 5 years and I haven't read much about anyone wishing that we could have churches everywhere, political recognition on a mass scale, like on an evangelical level. Yes there is that census ordeal which some were definitely joking and pushing it along because of the Star Wars connection, but there sure is a vast majority of people who do feel they can honestly identify with Jediism whether they specifically roleplay like in the movies or they just take the ideas and apply it to real life without roleplaying. We would all love to have real temples in our own countries to congregate. I just don't see it being pushed but maybe since I personally don't care much about all that I could just be ignorant of it happening here.

What definition did it use to gain this national recognition?

According to the IRS, "Organizations exempt under IRC Section 5O1-(c) (3) are further classified as either public charities or private foundations. We determined you're a public charity under the IRC Section Listed at the top of this letter." I'm not specifically aware of what they used. But I thought that those becoming ministers here actually become officially licensed too.

By making this statement you are making a making a rather hubristic statement about religions and adherents of certain religious groups. Is this what was intended by including that particular book by Campbell?

Well Campbell made that exact statement in an interview. Hubristic? Sure. Of course it doesn't negate the fact that religions are also unique traditions and ethics that were tailored to or for usually a certain group of people at a specific time in history. The problem today especially with children is that these stories, these traditions and yes metaphors have a hard time being relevant and appealing for the younger generations. If you go through Campbell's works he obviously has very much respect for religions and even the primitve cultures and their ideas. He analyzes a lot of it but of course it's from his perspective, his perspective and the story of Perennialism is quite interesting in my opinion because it tells a lot about how everyone's faith is similar and again the violence that comes about from disagreements and misunderstandings with each other's faith is one of the biggest issues we live with and our ancestors lived with and even died for too. The part in the IP dealing with Campbell is a series of lectures entitled The Power of Myth.

So am I to make of this that Jediism is some sort of syncretic faith?

You could. According to Br. John who is a Bishop, "You could truthfully say it's a form of Zen-Gnostic-Taoist-Universalism." V-Tog said that for years she described it to people as, "Adapted Taoism with roots in mythology and comparative religion."

Can you explain what you mean by this?

Humans have the same body structures and systems. We go through and are susceptible to similar psychological patterns, emotions and feelings. We participate in the same social structures like churches, schools, jobs, recreational activities.

Did you just read this in a Deepak Chopra book? What is a polarity to you? What is a "frequency matrix" to you or a frequency in general? I'd really like to know what you mean by these things.

I don't even know who Deepak Chopra is. A polarity to me is it's definition, I used it in the context of meaning positive and negative and neutral being all separate poles or ends of a spectrum that influence and/or determine a fundamental feature or characteristic of something, anything that differs from the others. When I am saying frequency I mean like frequencies of sound, light or electricity, a frequency matrix being our field of existence created of, influenced and perceived by interacting frequencies in a "biophysicalelectromagnetic" way. Sounds pretty New Agey or really nerdy like a preacher of quantum physics I know.

But to me if that's the purpose of a lot of people here, doesn't it just seem like an adult playing dress-up games if they call themselves a "Jedi" too?

Maybe if they're dressing up with all the stuff in the doctrine, ideas and concepts discussed here? Which of course could be just a game to them to have a debate or discussion, try to find something out or try to tell people about something. There are plenty of people here who are not claiming themselves to be Jedi and don't do the IP or join officially but are just here for the discussions and kinship. There are people to who also get dressed up and pretend to be Star Wars Jedi.

If the entire religion is just about people exploring ideas with no base whatsoever, then it isn't a religion in the slightest.

Ah but most of us here might be exploring and interacting with the base of the doctrine, no?

What is the Force? What does it mean to "embrace it"?

In short, the general consensus is that it is just the connectedness and interdependence of the universe, planets, our environment, humans and our lives, inner mental and biology working, just the Force of life I suppose, which in it's dualistic nature could be simplified into consciousness and unconsciousness in regards to everything from living to non living, right and wrong, whatever.

Which makes things destructive or constructive? Which one is better and why?

Depends, what's good for everyone or what's good for you, what's good for long term what's good for short term, all of this stuff has been debated and debated since the beginning of time. Like I said it can be entirely subjective, sometimes destruction is just a natural process or even a positive one, you have to break things down to rebuild sometime. I don't have moral superiority here and my thoughts and opinions I'm talking to you about do not represent the opinions and beliefs of this organization or everyone here.

Despite Reneza's faults this discussion has been of a particular quality.
My fellow Jedi have each acquitted themselves here with integrity and patience.
There were some new (to me) voices who wrote thoughtful and sincere posts.
And as always, my fellow Knights each demonstrated those ethical qualities and insightful wisdom that makes this Temple one of my favorite places.

Thank you.

All religions started somewhere, did they not? Were the words of the bible written before their deity existed or after? Did Buddhist magically have a doctrine materialize before them or was it developed. All I am saying is that you seem to be quick to dismiss this as a religion due to some misguided idea of what we are all about. You keep saying that you are just trying to understand and not argue for the sake of arguing but you are throwing in little quips to try and illict an ill response. If you are trying to find answers why not PM council members who can probably shed a little more light on what you seek. I think you are not happy with the responses you are getting and for that I apologize. But like its been stated by several people in responses to your post, its not all concrete or to a level where a solid doctrine can be made. It may never be if the majority choose to keep it in place of open-concept, which is also fine by me. Would it be great to have temples and a solid basis to throw your way? Sure, but at this time the answers you've received seem to be repeating themselves. There are roughly 570,192 proclaimed Jedi across the globe according to countries and their own census. That is pretty convincing that an awakening has begun and more and more people are seeking the path of the Jedi. I wish you the best of luck with whatever it is you're looking for. May the Force be with you.

I have only have only been here a month or so and have found a lot of the conversations to be very worth wild. Having so many different perspective has given me a lot to think about. That in itself is worth its weight in gold. To have every idea defined instantly would take the experience away and make it shallow and not worth it.

To kinda feed of off Jestor's fireman analogy let me put it this way but lets not use the poor hose jockeys.

I have been a police officer for nine years. When I first became an officer older officers would always warn of certain things that would change you as your career progressed. As a young officer I said that won't happen to me I know what it means to be a police officer, I went to college and went through the academy. As time progressed and I experienced many things first hand I changed. Now I see new officers and they have the same attitude. Sometimes the only way to truly understand something is to experience it for yourself but having guidance from those who have already experienced it can help enhance the experience and provide prospective.

Jestor wrote: EDIT: I meant to quote this too;

The main difference is where Jedi see Jedi as the goal, Sith, the path,

==============================

fireman wants to be a fireman, or a Jedi wants to be a Jed

Gonna have to disagree with ya here buddy..

Most Jedi want the world to be a better place... Although, what that means, and how to achieve it, differs...

If I had to generalize, I mean...

Since we are all generalizing... lol...

We (Jedi) like being lumped together about as much as anyone else... :lol:

The fireman, may be following a family tradition, and would prefer to make furniture... lol...

Most questions here are not about making the world a better place, but what a Jedi does and doesnt do in regards to X.

That makes Jedi the goal.

Few conversations here are about making the world a better place.

So, if that is the want for Jedi....I am not seeing it.

Most cannot even agree what "better" would be.

Most seem to only point out the negatives of the world and few are solutions, or actions leading to such.

So, feel free to disagree, but at the same time, I am not seeing how you came to that generalization.

As for the fireman analogy, while I am sure that happens, I am also sure the point I was trying to make did not escape you either.

Fireman, whether they secretly want to do something else, if they are training to be firemen regardless,makes being a fireman the goal.

Yes Khaos...

Out of your sight, in journals not for the public eye, our journals sometimes show and highlight the things we do for the world...

I, and another, are elected officials, doing our part for the citizens we represent...

I work in the.public sector... Donate time to my community to.make it fun, and safe... I'm the neighborhood block captain...

Two for sure work in the mental health field... One of my friends (here at TOTJO) has mostly overcome some life problems, and after some classes, offers their time to.volunteer to help others with similar problems that they experienced....

Some work in soup kitchens, some work and/or donate to then APL...

I also donate hundreds if hours to this website, the behind the scenes mechanisms that allow it to function, as do others...

What you see, is our relaxing down time... This is our "fun"...

You can't see the private conversations between members who just need an ear.. Need to vent, need some free advice (yes, always with the "we are not professionals), the advice as friends...

We are making the world better, even if its one person at a time...

Honestly, you.plain just don't know, cause you don't need to... lol...

You calling us 'dark' Jestor, from a certain point of view

ie; partially hidden

Ok, so unfortunately I can't reply to every single post since my last as I've been away and but the basic gist I got from them was: "there were many explanations, but for some reason they just weren't satisfying/Reneza is incapable of understanding"

While I appreciate your attempts at explanations, they were for the most part unsatisfying for a number of reasons:

1. While many concepts/terms are given in the "doctrine" they are unexplained and no baseline is given to what they actually convey. Many things that attempt to mimic real-world ideas and concepts actually come off as empty without any sort of foundation for their existence. This is problematic because it means that Jediism literally is just image and little more. If you suggest that it is a "platform for exploration of the spiritual" or something, this means that it is not a religion or anything really cohesive but a discussion forum online or otherwise for spiritual topics with the trappings of a film series.

2. While every other religion on the planet will tell you why its teachings should be practiced (if not proselytizing, it will tell its own members), Jediism seems to be both incapable due to lack of any real underlying teleological principle, and is terrified of doing so out of fear of receiving the same scrutiny as actual religions. Members repeatedly use circular reasoning such as "to give charity is good because it is giving charity which is good, etc." This is problematic because it seems that it's rather common around here to speak against "dogma" yet to make such audacious claims, as if certain concepts are objective, presumes there is an objective concept of "good" even though there exists no definition of it here. In the maxims it talks of what is "true" and "right" yet doesn't tell you what they are and just seem to rely on western cultural consensus on what these things mean.

Regarding "The Force":
A word cannot rely solely on on individual people's own definition. It needs to have a base definition at the very least least otherwise it's meaningless. The Force obviously has none. The reason for this seems to me to be for two reasons:

a) Fear of creating any kind of "dogma" out of a children's film series, perhaps due to embarrassment or for some it seems to be a case of fear that by doing so it will drive members away and leave just a small group. It is important to note that many people here seem curiously terrified of the concept of dogma but of course also have typically western attitudes to it, interpolating concepts like "ignorance" and "indoctrination" which are just not there in the first place.

b) Inability to create a consensus and resistance to doing so for the above reason.

The only definition I've been able to compile from all members' responses is that The Force means "personal opinions" and nothing more. It just seems insincere, at least to me, to mask it as anything more.

It is nice to be in a community and to experience a sense of belonging, and I do sympathize with a lot of the younger members here who have come to find something welcoming and a place to explore ideas, etc. But for the older members, in society you will always be considered as a ludicrous display of insincerity. I know that it is common here to act with a sense of hubris exclaiming that you "don't care what other people think" and that's all well and good, but if you don't care, why do you label yourself as something that has no real meaning outside of a fictional context? Why not simply explore ideas with other people without applying nouns or adjectives to yourself? - as it's all that this platform seems to be. The maxims themselves are just popular consensus in western society on how people should behave with the addition of extremely shallow new age "spiritual-sounding" concepts, e.g. "to accept the ego for what it is" or "to let the self be sole master of the self." The Force is repeatedly mentioned, e.g. "to be connected to the Force" and "to trust in the ways of the Force" yet again there is no definition so these phrases are meaningless and null.

Having no meanings is not "a strength" for a religion and almost all religions have broken into sects precisely because there is an extremely high level of ambiguity in regards to dogma. If you have no base at all and rely entirely on individual's own personal opinions/beliefs, then again it is not a religion, but a platform for discussion. There's nothing wrong with this and in fact it's a good thing, but to act as if it is a religion is ludicrous.

Regardless, I've enjoyed my attempt to understand and explore this particular little area of the internet and my understanding is better because of it. I really appreciate all the kind and genuine responses from everyone and I hope you continue to learn and grow in the world. But be careful when you use words, especially "IRL," as there are many who will ask you what they actually mean, and you will have to explain yourself. When people ask questions they are most often not being hostile but are curious and to act, as I've seen from the responses of several, as if the questioner is insincere and trying to "mock" you in some way should set off something within you. If you do feel this way, it is most likely because you cannot explain yourself and feel defensive because you've integrated something into your projected self (e.g. Jediism) and others see large holes in it. By refusing, you are failing yourself and become merely an image.

And? Is that it...
I disagree with your assessment. :lol:

I get the impression any answers we give at all would not satisfy. I wonder why this is continuing. I no longer see a point

I agree with the assessment of Firewolf and Adder. This 'conversation' has gone on long enough.

Br. John wrote:

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B. Kliban

those are brilliant! especially the last one
thank you for sharing

Hi Reneza!

I'd like to participate in some of your questions with my thoughts. Please bear in mind I'm very new and not any kind of authority here.

Definition of the Force: a ubiquitous and metaphysical power that a Jedi believes to be the underlying, fundamental nature of the universe. I took this directly from the doctrine. This sounds like the same definition of the Tao, if the Tao can really be "defined." Why not just call it the Tao? No idea. But this belief in a higher or farther reaching power, so to speak, must classify as religious.

The remainder of the doctrine is a code of ethics, or how Jedi ideally want to behave. It's mostly a social code and not religious. The religious part of Jediism? Believing in the "Force."

I also like the Wiki definition of religion: Religion is a cultural system of behaviors and practices, world views, ethics, and social organisation that relate humanity to an order of existence.

To answer your question on legal status of religion, see page 9 of this IRS doc: http://www.irsvideos.gov/ChurchesReligiousOrganizations/player/Powerpoint_Presentation.pdf

IRS requirements for a "religious organization" are pretty vague and don't require a denomination. But I'm not sure how TotJO filled out its paperwork.

I also want to address the idea of necessity of all those belonging to a religion to subscribe to the same beliefs without interpretation. Consider the many factions within one religion which disagree. I'll use Judaism as an example, between Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist. In fact, the Central Conference of American Rabbis of Reform Judaism say that "While we may differ in our interpretation and application of the ideas enunciated here, we accept such differences as precious and see in them Judaism's best hope for confronting whatever the future holds for us." And this goes on about the autonomy of the individual in Reform Judaism. (http://ccarnet.org/rabbis-speak/platforms/reform-judaism-centenary-perspective/).

A lack of coherence in religion is, I believe, not unique to Jediism and TotJO.

To summarize my thoughts on Jediism, it is the belief in the "eternal Tao" (called the Force at TotJO) with a code of moral behavior written in the doctrine.

All that being said, I do find the road to Knighthood and all it entails rather vague, but then I am new here.

I also think you've posed valid questions and started a great conversation! Please let me know your thoughts on anything I've said.

Best,
Bin

Well his has been a most enjoyable and thought provoking read. Thank you Reneza and all those who commented.

Reneza, trying to pin down definite beliefs or definitions here is a bit of a comedy festival as you have no doubt discovered. They aren't joking when they say they tolerate opinions of every kind. You will find people who agree and disagree with literally every aspect (Is "Jediism" is religion or not, doctrine, vows, IP, etc).

If I had to try and define the most commonly held belief system here at TOTJO then it is this:

"Religion is just a myth. There is no super human controlling power. No god. As such there is no truth or lie, no right or wrong, no absolutes and no meaning to life. Thus these things are in the eye of the beholder. Or as they say a matter of perspective."

To extrapolate the belief system: "Jediism is a religion because it says it is", "You are a Jedi if you say you are" and "The force is what you think it is".

I hope that helps and I hope you hang around to share more of your thoughts.