The Force in Scripture?

The Hebrew text says that YHVH said to Moses, "I have made you elohim to Pharoah." Two different words, one the unpronounceable name of God and the other the word used throughout the OT for both true gods and false. (It's also an interesting word in itself, in that it appears to be a feminine plural word, but I won't go too far down that rabbit hole.) Among other things, in Genesis, when God moves on the face of the waters, that's also elohim.

I'm not going to be overly involved in this discussion, not being Christian and therefore not having a vote in Christian theology, but I got curious about what language was used...

My source for the Hebrew: https://biblehub.com/text/exodus/7-1.htm
(My Hebrew is not up for this task on its own.)

Kasumi wrote: The Hebrew text says that YHVH said to Moses, "I have made you elohim to Pharoah." Two different words, one the unpronounceable name of God and the other the word used throughout the OT for both true gods and false. (It's also an interesting word in itself, in that it appears to be a feminine plural word, but I won't go too far down that rabbit hole.) Among other things, in Genesis, when God moves on the face of the waters, that's also elohim.

I'm not going to be overly involved in this discussion, not being Christian and therefore not having a vote in Christian theology, but I got curious about what language was used...

My source for the Hebrew: https://biblehub.com/text/exodus/7-1.htm
(My Hebrew is not up for this task on its own.)

I'm not a Christian either but if you ask me that point is entirely valid. When I was a young Christian when I heard certain words like "worship" my brain filled in the rest and I assumed that such words were only applicable in the context of God with a capital G. I didn't know anything at that point about how they translated it and how el, al, il, and ol are essentially the same partially because ancient Hebrew didn't have vowels and so the Masorites introduced the vowel pointing system. It's easier to believe there's no difference between the English and the Hebrew Greek and bits of Aramaic sprinkled in. People want to simplify their faith, not make it more complicated.

But the reality is that they did not have "kodesh" or "set apart" (holy) words that were only usable within the context of religion. I remember when my Christian peers would argue that Jesus had to be God because he received worship and only God can be worshipped. However, what they didn't take into account was that the words used were not invented by priests. The bible says clearly that the kings were worshipped. So that tells me that it is a relative word. You can give your child "praise" for doing well in school without it being the same "praise" Christians give to God. Same with worship. The respect given to a king doesn't have to be the same as the respect given to God. Even the word used for God was also used for men because it is a word associated with power. So men in authority were gods. Men who were mighty in battle were gods. Except that... in English the word gods would not be appropriate. We would say "powerful" and "mighty" but the meaning in Hebrew is the same. In English people would get confused but in OLD English it was permissible which is why it was translated that way.

When Jesus, for example, said "ye are gods" this was an OT reference to "judges" which are very much powerful authority figures. But in English people often struggle with what to do with it. That's why I believe the Trinity was a hasty decision that they came to without a full picture of the TNK; the Hebrew Scriptures. Remember, that in those times there were very few copies. People didn't have bibles in their homes. And it was doubtful that the gentiles who were often not even allowed to come all the way into the synagogue would have been allowed to study the scriptures that weren't even in their language. What they could read would have been Greek copies and if Greek has differences with Hebrew like English does then it wouldn't have been hard for them to get confused.

EXODUS 7:8-12

Then the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, “When Pharaoh speaks to you, saying, ‘Show a miracle for yourselves,’ then you shall say to Aaron,‘Take your rod and cast it before Pharaoh, and let it become a serpent.’ ” So Moses and Aaron went in to Pharaoh, and they did so, just as the Lord commanded. And Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
But Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers; so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. For every man threw down his rod, and they became serpents. But Aaron’s rod swallowed up their rods.

For the purposes of getting through the main points, we’re going to skip some of the verses. However, I want to point out that throughout each of these next two plagues, God instructs Moses on exactly what to say. Moses is told to specifically outline what is coming next, so that everyone present is aware that all of it is by design.

Exodus 7:19-23

Then the Lord spoke to Moses, “Say to Aaron, ‘Take your rod and stretch out your hand over the waters of Egypt, over their streams, over their rivers, over their ponds, and over all their pools of water, that they may become blood. And there shall be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in buckets of wood and pitchers of stone.’ ” 20And Moses and Aaron did so, just as the Lord commanded. So he lifted up the rod and struck the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh and in the sight of his servants. And all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood. 21The fish that were in the river died, the river stank, and the Egyptians could not drink the water of the river. So there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt.
Then the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments; and Pharaoh’s heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the Lord had said.

EXODUS 8:5-7

Then the Lord spoke to Moses, “Say to Aaron, ‘Stretch out your hand with your rod over the streams, over the rivers, and over the ponds, and cause frogs to come up on the land of Egypt.’ ” So Aaron stretched out his hand over the waters of Egypt, and the frogs came up and covered the land of Egypt.
And the magicians did so with their enchantments, and brought up frogs on the land of Egypt.

What are some things you notice? Are there differences between the magicians and what Moses is doing?
What do you think is the deciding value of their abilities?

Alethea Thompson wrote:

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EXODUS 7:8-12

Then the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, “When Pharaoh speaks to you, saying, ‘Show a miracle for yourselves,’ then you shall say to Aaron,‘Take your rod and cast it before Pharaoh, and let it become a serpent.’ ” So Moses and Aaron went in to Pharaoh, and they did so, just as the Lord commanded. And Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
But Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers; so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. For every man threw down his rod, and they became serpents. But Aaron’s rod swallowed up their rods.

For the purposes of getting through the main points, we’re going to skip some of the verses. However, I want to point out that throughout each of these next two plagues, God instructs Moses on exactly what to say. Moses is told to specifically outline what is coming next, so that everyone present is aware that all of it is by design.

Exodus 7:19-23

Then the Lord spoke to Moses, “Say to Aaron, ‘Take your rod and stretch out your hand over the waters of Egypt, over their streams, over their rivers, over their ponds, and over all their pools of water, that they may become blood. And there shall be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in buckets of wood and pitchers of stone.’ ” 20And Moses and Aaron did so, just as the Lord commanded. So he lifted up the rod and struck the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh and in the sight of his servants. And all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood. 21The fish that were in the river died, the river stank, and the Egyptians could not drink the water of the river. So there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt.
Then the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments; and Pharaoh’s heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the Lord had said.

EXODUS 8:5-7

Then the Lord spoke to Moses, “Say to Aaron, ‘Stretch out your hand with your rod over the streams, over the rivers, and over the ponds, and cause frogs to come up on the land of Egypt.’ ” So Aaron stretched out his hand over the waters of Egypt, and the frogs came up and covered the land of Egypt.
And the magicians did so with their enchantments, and brought up frogs on the land of Egypt.

What are some things you notice? Are there differences between the magicians and what Moses is doing?
What do you think is the deciding value of their abilities?

for the record, I don't really like Moses due to the genocide he commanded upon his own people. I just want to make that bias clear and beg your forgiveness for speaking on the subject.

With that being said, please forgive me for saying this, but since the bible was written after the events that are described we cannot really say what everyone knew in the moment. There's no dialogue in your two examples where Moses tells the people exactly what God told him to do beforehand and what the result would be.

He tells the reader what God told him to do, but not the Egyptians. He simply does it. And as you read his account of their reaction they weren't very impressed by his miracles. He (the writer) seems to accept that they (the Egyptians) are also doing miraculous things. The difference in quality of these miracles is what is in question and of course the side that wrote the biblical account wins in that department.

This is like me saying that I played Basketball with Michael Jordan before and I won 21 to 6. Some might believe me but the more critical one is of the story the less likely it is and the more you'd want to ask Michael Jordan if it ever happened and if it did, what the score was. I did play against a guy who claimed to be Michael's cousin and although this happened in Montreal Canada I still believed him because of the way he said it. That game, I did win. Can I prove it? No.

Point is, it's much easier to craft a narrative after the fact; especially one in which you are the hero and that people should respect and follow you based on this account. I do think something happened, but I don't think it was a magical faceoff. I think there was a volcanic eruption and none of them knew what that was or what the effects of such were. I think many if not most myths start with at least a grain of truth. If you study religions in that region you see this emphasis on mountain gods. This even translates to mount Olympus. Why is the father of the Olympian gods tied to a "lightning bolt?" I think it is because lighting was the thing most feared and it is a common product of volcanoes.

Why did the Israelites travel towards mt Sinai (which is not the same as the current one), following a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night? What kind of mountain has these two features in common? A volcano.

What seems more likely is that they mythologized this volcanic event and attributed the effects of it to their God and this is compatible because their definition of the word God is literally "power". The sun was seen as a source of power so why wouldn't a volcano be? They both produce fire and light.

I think YHWH was basically a personification of energy/power that, like the stars, would guide them and lead them to victory against their enemies and help them survive. The rest is kinda what they interpreted based on their own superstitions and imagination which produced and inspired a lot of wisdom and knowledge that is fruitful for people of all religions.

ZealotX, I had 2 requests:

1) And this is the most important- If you’re going to quote the study post, remove the picture so people can easily locate the posts that are directly the study material.

2) If you believe the Bible is nothing more than myth, then use the physics of the Bible so we can continue and prevent this from turning into a discussion of whether the stories are true. If you want THAT discussion, then there’s a whole forum here called “Abrahamic” you can start your own thread in.

Thanks Alethea!

I struggle to take these stories too literally but am happy to consider what the authors were trying to say and trying to explain. To me the mythological 'truth' is much more important than the historical truth (which we will never know). This summarises a potential set of natural causes for the plagues:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/7530678/Biblical-plagues-really-happened-say-scientists.html

The Nile turning to blood sounds a lot like a red algal bloom. That would have killed the fish and caused the frogs to swarm out of the river. 3000 years ago the best explanation of this would be magic and/or God. Its interesting that God doesn’t perform the miracle himself – rather he tells Moses what to say to Aaron, and then it is Aaron that actually performs the magic. This mechanism is consistent with the time, where the over-arching paradigm to explain natural events was transitioning from magic to religion. These stories are really good examples of this cultural evolution.

A similar chain of causation occurs with the rods: It is Aaron who performs the magic. Pharoah’s wizards then perform the same magic – inferring that Moses, Aaron and the wizards were of the same school of magic. However, Aaron’s magic was stronger and it was his rod that ate the wizards’ rods. Symbolically this shows that:

Magic + God > Magic alone.

As time moves on, magic is culturally reduced to conjuring, and it is religion that is favoured to explain natural and ‘super-natural’ phenomena. Today, of course, we favour science. To me, these stories illustrate the immense power of natural forces operating in this environment at the time: rapid sea level rise, rapid climate change and how vulnerable civilisation was to these forces. Without wanting to stretch this line of argument too far, it also places humanity as a causal factor in these natural forces. Plenty of relevance to today I'd say!

Alethea Thompson wrote: ZealotX, I had 2 requests:

1) And this is the most important- If you’re going to quote the study post, remove the picture so people can easily locate the posts that are directly the study material.

2) If you believe the Bible is nothing more than myth, then use the physics of the Bible so we can continue and prevent this from turning into a discussion of whether the stories are true. If you want THAT discussion, then there’s a whole forum here called “Abrahamic” you can start your own thread in.

I think I understand point 1. We're talking about the fish symbol, right? I wasn't aware, but my apologies.

2) That's not actually what I believe. I believe the bible was a state sanctioned library of books that were for some writers "inspired" and for others different uses. My point about Moses is that he is a man and therefore should not be trusted just because he is being featured in the story as a tool of "God". It was his people (his supporters) who wrote that story. I'm not suggesting they made it up because I don't think the story makes him look good. Instead, I read it as political spin. And whether "God" was behind him remains to be seen. Instead, we're trained by our religion to assume that because "it is written".

Let's think about it this way. Star Wars Episode I and II go back in time and set up the story of Anakin Skywalker. He's regarded by some to be the chosen one and by others to be a potential threat. Master Yoda and master Windu were very wary if not skeptical. They did not accept this narrative that some others were feeding into because they believed they knew and understood the prophecy. In the end they were almost completely wiped out by Anakin turned Vader who committed his own genocide against the future generation of Jedi at the temple. At this point we KNOW he had crossed over to the dark side.

So my point on why I have a bias against Moses is an honest perspective judging him by his actions, not by his prominence in the story or in Judeo Christian history. He's the hero of his story but he also commanded genocide against all those who weren't willing to go along with his authority; an authority that came from his own claim of interacting with God. The natural reaction is to believe him but again... he's like Anakin. When you commit genocide then, for ME, your journey to the dark side is complete.

This is important to the question of how much should Christians interact with it. And I quote:
"Whatever it is, another question comes to mind: How are we, as Christians, suppose to interact with it? Should we interact with it at all?"

I perfectly remember when I thought of this same Moses as a hero, knowing full well the whole story of how he threw down the commandments, forced the Israelites to drink the golden calf, and ordered many of them to be executed. At that time I was substituting my own judgment for the biblical narrative. It's the same thing as when a nation invades or conquers a new land, doing all kinds of unspeakable evils towards the indigenous population but somehow portraying themselves as the good guys; the cowboys vs the indians. My mind was conditioned from a young age to accept the narrative without questioning it. So I speak out knowing the dangers of that conditioning.

When we accept the narrative we can deceive ourselves into not using our own individual critical thinking, skepticism, or even empathy for the victims. Anakin went through this as he was being seduced by Sidious to turn against democracy. The Star Wars saga shows us the danger of seeing things in absolutes. Hard for me to fully describe but in the end this is how we end up in the clutches of Satan.

"But I do know that because I’ve explored this topic, I understand how easy it is to convince ourselves that we are doing God’s work- but are in fact falling further into Satan’s clutches."

Brilliant reasoning. I really is. I applaud this statement. Many people are asleep and cannot reach this level of understanding.

The Satan is assumed by the reader to be dark, ugly, and obviously evil by the cover of the book alone. This is part of the reason I chose the avatar I did. Because true evil wears a mask of goodness to seem more appealing. The fruit isn't spoiled. It looks good to eat. Satan was an angel of light, thought to be most powerful and beautiful... The Chosen One. There is no account of satan being cursed and deformed in any way. The visage of the "devil" is one only of metaphor.

Of course it doesn't sound like something God would do; making a being superior to all others knowing these very features would corrupt him. What it sounds like is satan's own narrative. "I'm the best. I'm the strongest. I'm the most handsome. I sing the best. I, I, I"

And when we play the game of "our God is stronger than your God" and we fight other people, take their land while claiming God gave it to us because they are sinful... (absolutely) while women are taken as spoils, children are killed, people are enslaved... which God is being followed if this is the result? Perhaps it is the Sith leading them in disguise. Israel foreign politics after they were slaves seems to have been bent on creating the same type of militaristic empire that later conquered and ruled over them.

So again... It's not that I don't believe any of it happened. It's more like, I want to look at what happened without the hero bias where Moses and gang are automatically the good guys because the story is about them. Let's not assume this. They want us to assume this so we can believe God told him to do those things; ALL those things. What if he didn't? What if he was under the influence of Satan? Would he know the difference? Do you trust him to know the difference? A man who didn't argue against the killing of the firstborn of Egypt? IMHO A Jedi would not be okay with that.

Ah, I understand.

In that case, you’re getting a bit ahead of the game then .

The study of the Plagues in the first week was never about heroism. Actually Week 2 is where you’re suppose to start questioning Moses’ actions as being what God intended. . And we’ll definitely get to that- because there are some definite “huh?” moments laced in there.

The 10 Plagues, for the purposes of this study, is only meant to address the metaphysics. That’s why the questions are only looking at the “magical” stuff written into the text. Moses (or Aaron for that matter) literally doesn’t matter yet- save one minor detail I’ll address just before we get to the Red Sea and begin analyzing Mose’s “magical” acts outside of Egypt.

Alethea Thompson wrote: Ah, I understand.

In that case, you’re getting a bit ahead of the game then .

The study of the Plagues in the first week was never about heroism. Actually Week 2 is where you’re suppose to start questioning Moses’ actions as being what God intended. . And we’ll definitely get to that- because there are some definite “huh?” moments laced in there.

The 10 Plagues, for the purposes of this study, is only meant to address the metaphysics. That’s why the questions are only looking at the “magical” stuff written into the text. Moses (or Aaron for that matter) literally doesn’t matter yet- save one minor detail I’ll address just before we get to the Red Sea and begin analyzing Mose’s “magical” acts outside of Egypt.

Oh wow. Terribly sorry for jumping ahead then. I was unaware of the larger plan. By all means, let's back up to where you want the conversation to be.

What are some things you notice? Are there differences between the magicians and what Moses is doing?
What do you think is the deciding value of their abilities?

As noted extensively I don't trust Moses but this outside the limited scope. Since I don't trust Moses I'm naturally skeptical of his abilities and what they even considered to be a miracle. As someone else stated, Moses was educated in Egypt, inside the Pharaoh's own house. So surely he learned science and mathematics from them. And he was kind of in control of the choice of magical contest. He often went first then they followed with their own and Pharaoh would be like "hmmph. whatever dude. We can do that too." and his heart would be hardened because in his mind Moses wasn't tapping into some greater force. Even if his magic was greater was it so much greater than all Egyptian gods should bow down to his one?

Though outside the scope, I think it's important to this context to note that the Egyptians later struggled with monotheism under Ahkenaten. Also, it is less likely that the monarchy held the same beliefs the population did because they were privy to more of the day to day. Leaders often used the state religion as a political tool to get people to follow them and to subdue any rebellions. I mean... wouldn't you be more likely to accept whatever the king does if his authority, and ultimately the responsibility for said act, went all the way up to the gods?

I think when there is a battle between religions it puts the king is a tough spot because his authority comes from the state sanctioned deities. If the people were to suddenly believe in another god who is against those deities and superior to them then that undermines the very foundation of that king's rule. Without the authority of the gods often kings are just wealthy men. Regular dudes who make good and bad decisions. Once you bring a king down to the same level as everyone else (like a US president) now people don't have to respect him and maybe he's unfit to rule.

So this is my main observation within the limited scope of these "miracles". It is a competition over who has ultimate authority in Egypt. And as long as the Pharaoh's priests can do something similar that's enough for their side (majority) to spin the narrative politically to their advantage. Moses knew that the priests were very powerful with the people. This is the reason kings are afraid of priests and prophets. They represent the highest authority and pass that authority onto the king. If they lose, he loses. And he could be politically maneuvered into letting the Israelites go if it really looked like YHWH was stronger.

I'm itching to get to the last plague because I think there was a lot going through the king's mind both when he let them go and afterwards when he sent the army after them. But the point I want to stress is that this was a game with high stakes. If Moses's God was greater then that means Moses would be able to command the Pharaoh to do anything he (his God) wanted. His heart kept hardening because each time he was meant to be afraid his priests were like "hey man, no sweat. we got this!"

If Moses learned science from them and if this was simply that. Science. Impressive to the average person but less so to other scientists. If that's what it was Moses already knew what they were capable of doing. That means he was picking "miracles" he knew they could perform to some degree. Knowing this, could he have picked things he was naturally better at than they were? Or was he simply taking credit for natural events? What if, because Moses was coming from outside of Egypt, he knew about a natural disaster that would certainly affect Egypt because of the water?

Think about how the sailors cast Jonah overboard because of the storm. Their superstition assumed that the storm was an "act of God" and by definition angry and therefore it had to be someone's fault who had angered the gods. They weren't believers in Jonah's God but their own belief caused Jonah to be swallowed by the whale which is considered to have been God's will. What if, because the bible is written in hindsight which is 20/20, what if superstition and fear creates a situation where if anything happens that is extraordinary or unexpected it has to involve the gods and therefore the most powerful God is simply the one given credit for the worst (by reason of devastating effect) "miracles". And the priests were the main cheerleaders, taking every event or strange science and attributing it to the appropriate god in their pantheon. In this case, they had competition because as they gave credit to their gods Moses stood opposite saying his God was the one responsible and there will be more unless you obey my (his) demands.