The Force in Scripture?

For those of you that follow my journal, you may have noticed that I mentioned this Bible Study I was doing for Knights of Awakening on the Force. I did two Bible Studies under "Christian Jedi Ministries" before I gave up on having the support network necessary to pull it off. So I may or may not be going a different direction, and under a new name, for my Christian explorations on KoA. But in the meantime...I have this study I did and no one to talk with about it. So, I thought to myself "Ally, why not ask Rosalyn and Br. John if I can facilitate the material on ToTJO where it will hopefully be appreciated?" ^^

And here I am today. I'll be using this thread throughout the whole time that I do this. I want to give time for people to think about and respond to each segment, so I'll post the next segment here about every 3-4 days. So that you can find the posts with the actual Bible Study, I'll mark them with the Ichthys picture above; so I ask that if you're going to quote those segments- please remove the Ichthys for others.

With that all out of the way, let's start ^^

The Jedi Compass tells us that the Force is meant to be interpreted by the individual. The rule was based on the fact that George Lucas wanted to inspire people to ask the question: Does God Exist? Although George Lucas identifies himself as a “Buddhist Methodist”, we are pretty sure he wasn’t explicitly asking people whether or not YHWH exists, but rather any supernatural being that could be akin to a god.

For those of us that identify as Christian Jedi, the answer seems fairly straight forward: Of course God exists!

But let me take that a step further: Is God actually the Force? Some of you may shift the answer and make the statement that the Holy Spirit is the Force, and since the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity, this would make the Force God. It may seem clean cut, but I want you to challenge this answer as we go through this study.

The fiction leaves a lot of information open for us to begin interpreting the Force. The framework can be used to explain the human condition of struggling to find a balance of control and freedom. It can be used to express the condition of the nature of divine questions- the battle of good and evil, and the possibilities which exist within our esoteric development.

Let’s start with the foundation:

According to the fiction, the Force:

1) Has a will
2) Is divided into 2 sides- Light and Dark
3) Could be used to move objects

In the films it can be used to create force lightning, deceive a storm trooper, move objects from a lightsaber to an X-wing Starfighter. But what about the Bible? What kinds of things are in the Bible which are of supernatural origin? If the Force is God Himself, then what could be said of Satan’s power? Is it something different? If the Force is Satan’s power, then what is said of God’s power? Why are the two different, if God created all? Did God give Satan his own type of power? Or if the Force is God, does Satan use God for his folly? Or could it be that the Force is something else- something that can be used by all beings within our universe for varying purposes? An energy field that we breath from, and can be used to turn water into wine?

Whatever it is, another question comes to mind: How are we, as Christians, suppose to interact with it? Should we interact with it at all?

Throughout this study, I hope you'll be asking yourselves these questions. It is possible not all of them will be answered, I know I still haven’t found an answer to all of them. But I do know that because I’ve explored this topic, I understand how easy it is to convince ourselves that we are doing God’s work- but are in fact falling further into Satan’s clutches.

These next few days, take some time to write down your own questions, and contemplate why it is or might be important for you to know the answer to the question: What is the Force, according to the Bible?

Citations:

Star Wars: Episode IV – A New Hope. (1977). [film] United States: George Lucas.

Thanks Alethea - I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes! Would you like us to respond in this thread or in our journals?

We can also create an allied study space in the IP Study Hall discord (https://discordapp.com/invite/akDBNbu) for this if desired. Abrahamism is part of Lesson 6, and I will certainly be flagging up this thread there. It may be a bit much extra study with IP studies as well, but you never know if reading along and hearing interesting views can bring a better understanding of things. Interested to see where this goes.

I’d like to see the discussion develop in here. ^^. I’m not sure I can make it into Discord to listen in (simply a matter of scheduling difficulties ), but I believe that would be fantastic too.

As for journals- if you find something particularly worth posting- of your thoughts or others- in there for your own documentation, by all means. ^^

Alethea asks the following:
But what about the Bible? What kinds of things are in the Bible which are of supernatural origin? If the Force is God Himself, then what could be said of Satan’s power? Is it something different? If the Force is Satan’s power, then what is said of God’s power? Why are the two different, if God created all? Did God give Satan his own type of power? Or if the Force is God, does Satan use God for his folly? Or could it be that the Force is something else- something that can be used by all beings within our universe for varying purposes? An energy field that we breath from, and can be used to turn water into wine?
How are we, as Christians, suppose to interact with it? Should we interact with it at all?
What is the Force, according to the Bible?

Thank you Alethea for your work on this and for sharing it with us. I apologise if the following is too abrupt, too stiff and unsympathetic, but I’m waaay oversimplifying for brevity. I’m not sure if this is the sort of response you were hoping for but here we go!

I come from a perspective that all of the major religious traditions have clear similarities running through their cores. The rituals, labels, ceremonies, histories, doctrines, dogmas and myths of different religions have massive differences but there are common themes. These are most obvious in the esoteric arms of the major religions: Sufism, Vedanta, Kabbalah and Christian Mysticism, but they still emerge through the exoteric teachings too. Through the work of many 20C religious philosophers this insight, and what it entails, has become known as The Perennial Philosophy.

Relevant to this discussion is the idea of each religion having one underlying, ubiquitous, uniting spiritual power which has certain common features: omnipotency, omnipresence, infinity, eternity, transcendence and creative power. Cyclicality is also a common, if not unilateral, feature. For the Jewish and Christian traditions this spiritual power is called God (YHWH). For Jedi it is called the Force. In my opinion these two labels share all of these attributes and therefore, in simplistic terms: God = The Force.

However, there is (at least) one key difference and that is the personality of God. The God of the old testament is a mixture of supra-personal, personal, non-personal aspects which become delineated in the new testament into God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. The Force is typically non-personal so has more in common with the Holy Spirit, than God, per se. Given the lack of Judao-Christian prophets in the last 2000 years it appears that God has become largely non-personal too. Even Muslims would agree there hasn’t been a prophet (someone in dialogue with the supra-personal aspect) since the 7C.

Satan is an intermittent player in the Bible and in Christian history, and the myths surrounding him have complicated what might be a relatively simple concept. He only achieved his current prominence some time after the Middle Ages – long after biblical times. Essentially what we are addressing here is the “problem of evil”, as first proposed by Epicurus.

Without going through all the arguments, the short conclusion is that there are two ways of formulating an answer: one which creates a paradox and one that doesn’t. The first answer is that the omnipotent spiritual power is solely benevolent. This creates the paradox described by the “problem of evil”. The second is that the omnipotent spiritual power is not solely benevolent, nor solely malelovent – it is neutral; this is how we see The Force.

Jews might be more likely to agree with Jedi, than Christians, but before the concept of Satan was established YHWH’s flooding, genocide, murder and eternal damning of unrepentant sinners left a concept of Satan rather redundant. It seems most likely to me that the omnipotent spiritual power in the universe is neutral and it is up to humans how we channel that power. That is our gift, and our curse.

“The problem of evil” strikes me as being the single biggest hurdle to combining Christianity and Jediism, and that difference understandably generates the entirely sensible questions that Alethea asks.

Lastly, I’m not keen on the concept of supernatural powers and events. Anything and everything that happens is natural. There are natural phenomena that we can explain, and plenty that we can’t. As we evolve spiritually, culturally and scientifically the ratio of these phenomena will shift increasingly in favour of those that we can explain and reproduce. The ‘god of the gaps’ will eventually disappear entirely. In the meantime, we use a tiny fraction of our current power for genuine good, so we should probably work on increasing that productivity before overly concerning ourselves with the ‘supernatural’.

As Christians you should interact with this spiritual power, and use it selflessly, carefully and for good. However, the problem of what is good, and what is bad can quickly become a thorny question . . . https://theunboundedspirit.com/short-story-the-taoist-farmer/

I think before discussing the overlap we have to describe God better. One could make an argument that the holy spirit portion of a triune God is more akin to the Force than God as a whole. Also we need to define evil and Satan and their relationship to God.
This is a great discussion topic, and I can't wait to see more

I think everyone has their own definition of god, even within the major religions, but that the institutions play a role in defining them for people (for good or ill) - they still can't have a monopoly on the definition, they cannot get the definition fully down, and so I will always be speaking from a point of personal experience and understanding in my participation here. I don't mind if the rest of you decide you want to come to a shared understanding as Rex suggested.

I don't consider myself to be either Christian or Jedi outside of any cultural definition - "I watch Star Wars and hang out with people who call themselves Jedi, so I am a Jedi" - I'd be ok with an anthropologist saying that of me. It seems fair. Same with Christianity. "I know you light the gospel candle before the others, so I am a Christian". But I think there is more to taking on these titles than these facts of being inside buildings with your body, or writing on forums, or performing certain rituals.

The question asked was "What is the Force, according to the Bible?", and I suppose due to my position as a Jedi skeptic I should also turn it on it's head and answer "What is the Bible, according to the Force?" as well.

From my perspective, the bible is quite a new thing in a universe that is 13.8 billion years old. But it speaks of things that are timeless. My understanding of force stuff is that it is also timeless. I think the christian understanding of the triune god is that it is also timeless.

The christian incarnational idea, with Jesus being man is one thing, and then the pentecostal idea of the spirit being in/with us all "after" Easter (Hurray!!!) So "we" are all Christ. Born to die. Born to rise again... that is another. It is time bound. It occurs "after". It is to do with us and our being god.

The Force thing manifests in living beings; and becomes more... "shiney" in some than others - Obi Wan, Luke etc. A "Long time ago". It has that timeless quality. It doesn't have the necessity of an Easter "event". It's always Easter. It's always Pentecost. It's set in a galaxy far far away, so it can happen everywhere if it happens there and it happens here.

For me, knowledge of "force stuff" comes through experience. I meet people and I see "force stuff" in their being. Some people I find give me a more easy access to this than others. I am left quite in awe by it, just as I am by nature, and by collective human endeavors. It is in all things in all times and in all places. It is in all books. It is inclusive. It is in the bad things and the good things. It is in the tough times and the good times. It has no rules.

For me, knowledge of "god stuff" comes through metaphor. I read bible stuff and I see god stuff in it. “Let’s go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about!” Hurrah! Meaning "Be active and take joy in finding god in a form you never expected to find him in, in a place you never expected to find him!". But I find access to God stuff is actively controlled by churches who mostly seem to get in the way of things. They have a lot of rules.

The satan thing in the bible (the accuser, the adversary) "Get thee behind me!" said Jesus. So the incarnate god is separate from satan, from the cockups. I personally find that a profoundly uninspiring model as I am really not. It seems to me to create this weird false world where there are things undeserving of compassion (sinners who are unrepentant) and those who are deserving of compassion ("the church goers" "the devout"). I am also not a boy, which seems to be a big deal to a fair number of churches, because Jesus was a boy. It means the model is less inspiring.

The force model; even an incarnation full of light like Obi Wan can cock up and train Anikin Skywalker. I like that. A gem in the mud. Just like Christ crucified; but this time whole - and actually properly guilty, just like a real person often is - because the force is both darkness and light. Together. Good and bad No separation - and still utterly lovable and deeply deserving of compassion while being 100 percent responsible for the suffering of most of the galaxy. WHAT A JERK. But that's the crux. I know I am no Jedi for I haven't the compassion to let myself really just be whole, and I have only really met one Jedi who definitely plumbed the depth of compassion needed to hit the spot and show me that was your guys's way of things. It's what I want for my way. Prejudice free, judgement free. I think it is a very highly developed art, jediing of that kind. It doesn't lack discernment. It is just drenched in compassion. I very much enjoy hanging out with you all. You are all different. Jedi are all the species, all the genders, all the races, all the ethnicities, all the abilities, and all the types and varieties. All the classes, all the histories, all the cockups and the successes... everything. And it's all okay. All acceptable. I like that.

"Part One" (which I use loosely as an identifier, this was originally set up to be a week-by-week study..) of this set talks about the 10 Plagues. It may seem like a strange place to start, given most things begin in Genesis, but consider this: Prior to the story of the 10 plagues, God has really only talked with people and led them to go places or inspired speech (fathers whom blessed or cursed their children, for example). He hasn’t directed them to perform metaphysical miracles. But in Exodus, this changes. Moses becomes our first real story of a God-chosen miracle-worker. Though, I’m sure that the Egyptians saw him more as a Nightmare.



Before we go any further on this, however, I think we should establish a baseline for this story. It is simple to write off anything supernatural in the Bible as being fable. But there is some good evidence to suggest that-at the very least- the events known as the 10 plagues could have actually happened. While Scientists have offered an explanation that the plagues came from a shift in climate from a Volcanic eruption- the question of whether or not Moses was a fabrication in the story still remains a mystery. This leaves the rest up to personal belief. That said, it is my personal belief that this story is real. You are free to make your own determination, but for the sake of moving this forward, let's not get hung up on whether or not it's a true story. If you believe the story is true, then continue with that understanding. If, however, you believe it is false- then let's agree to operate on the concept that we are dealing with Bible World Physics as you would any other work of fiction.

To me, the story of the 10 Plagues is the foundation for the study of everything supernatural in the Bible. And so we begin at Exodus 6:28 (I'll post the NKJV for anyone that doesn't want to pull out their Bible to look it up)

EXODUS 6:28-7:2
 And it came to pass, on the day the Lord spoke to Moses in the land of Egypt, that the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “I am the Lord. Speak to Pharaoh king of Egypt all that I say to you.”
But Moses said before the Lord, “Behold, I am of uncircumcised lips, and how shall Pharaoh heed me?”
So the Lord said to Moses: “See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet. You shall speak all that I command you. And Aaron your brother shall tell Pharaoh to send the children of Israel out of his land.

What do you think God meant when he said “I have made you a god to Pharaoh”? 


“Moses like God to Pharoah”

Moses is saying “im a low class person by the rules of our society and its unthinkable that i could make demads of Pharoh”. Imagine a homeless person or an illegal immigrant walking into the White House to tell the President that hes being a jerk... its a cool fantasy but it would end in handcuffs.

My “academic” reaction is that Egytp was polytheistic and the word that got translated to “god” in our text basically could be understood as “a powerful being who could command some aspect of reality”.
Not the same as “G-d”is who is “the real God” in our story and who was willing to give Moses the power to do whatever he needed to do.. effectively making him a “god” compared to Pharoah and by Pharos standards.
So G-d was saying “dont worry, youre way more buff than him and youre as buff as anything that he understands”

My other thought is... Remember how G-d “hardens Pharos heart”? So G-d is interfering with Pharohs perceptions in different ways throughout the story.
Here G-d is saying “dont worry about that, I have taken over his perceptions and you are like a god to him” — and again id refer to the polytheistic meaning of “god” - i dont believe the scripture was meant to say that Moses would appear to be G-d but rather “a god”

So bascally G-d was using the Jedi mind trick to mess with Pharoah :lol:
Which is why i posted. I dont know if i will reply often in this thread but considering the title and the question i thought i had to share that last idea, lol.

Well the word used was translated from that book to 3 English words: God, god, and mighty. So I'll just spitball it's one of the last two.
Also conjecture over what actually happened is pointless because the pharaohs aren't named, and "unbiased" history didn't really exist. If we accept the plagues happened, the only way to know the what and why are you take the Torah/Biblical account prima facie.
Also, wasn't Job penned before the Torah? Not that it's easy to read (I mean half of the Exodus is cultural norms that are lost on me)

Apols if this makes little sense - I’m on a bus to London!

As with any good myth, this story probably has elements which actually happened, some which have been exaggerated and some completely made-up to make the message of the story more effective.

For me, the historicity of the story is interesting but mostly irrelevant as to ‘truth’ claims. I’m not too bothered whether the second plague was of frogs, or newts, or crocodiles - that would be to miss the inner truth of the story. I also don’t see much supernatural going on here - plagues happen. It’s not like animals started talking, people started flying, or lice grew to the size of elephants! The artistic licence in the story is actually quite constrained.

Moses is an interesting character: a Hebrew born into Egyptian slavery, then left in the reeds of the Nile as a baby, by his mother to evade a ‘cull’ of Israelite children by Pharoah, he was found by an Egyptian princess and raised in the royal family. As far as I’m aware it never confirms this in the bible, but esoteric sources claim he was inducted into the Egyptian priestly caste, taught the law, astronomy, architecture, as well as the most advanced theology of the day.

If knowledge is power, and caste fundamental to such a society then God (or Fate) gave Moses everything he needed to liberate the Israelites from Egyptian slavery. The only critical skill he seemed to lack was in oratory. Fortunately his brother, Aaron, was bestowed with this skill and able to give voice to Moses’ leadership.

The reason why this back-story is important is because it’s not like God plucked Moses out of a quarry and made him a god. He was as well educated as anyone and probably more so than Pharoah himself. This preparation took years of study, and taking full advantage of the privileges made available to him - it certainly wasn’t gifted in a flash.

So God gave Moses the opportunity to develop all the necessary skills, knowledge and wisdom to overcome Pharoah. This wasn’t a supernatural process in my view, but such power would make Moses a god to Pharoah i.e. a higher power.

Whether the word ‘god’ is being used metaphorically or literally here is up for debate. I like to think it is literal: through study, contemplation, experience and application of the divine we can enter communion with ‘God’ (The Force, the aspects of reality that I described in the first post). Thou art that.

The ability for humans to enter communion with God in this way, is offered to all. Psalm 82 v6: “I have said ‘Ye are Gods’, and all of you are Sons of the Most High”. Incidentally this is the scripture that Jesus quotes in the incident of John 10 v34.

Practically speaking, the knowledge and opportunity to develop the skills required are available to almost all of us now. How many of us are actually taking-up that opportunity and how many of us are failing to heed the call to adventure? Could you be trusted to wield that kind of power wisely?

Asking myself as much as anyone else!

Is it possible, from a scriptural and allegorical standpoint that the bible was never actually written to divide the personage of God into 3 distinct persons but rather speak of the "divine" in the context of 3 converging principles?

In other words... you have the mind, the body, and the spirit.

In a literal sense Jesus (the son) calls God (the Father) is father while the testimony says Mary was "overshadowed" by the holy spirit. This sounds confusion and was always a point of contention for me because the old testament is anything but confusing because every Israelite was commanded to repeat the "shema" 3 times a day (Deuteronomy 6:4)

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:
5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Or as it would read in Hebrew...

Hear O Yisrael, Yahweh our God is one master.
And thou shalt love Yahweh thy God with all thine heart and with all thy sould and with all thy might.

So not only were they required to repeat this but "God is not the author of confusion" and they were required to keep the commandments, including the first, and not violate. Violation wasn't simply on the basis of worshipping other specific gods but really having any God other than Yahweh. Period. I'm trying to stress the fact that this name "Yahweh" was used to connect their understanding of "One God" to the actual name.

At the same there are a number of statements in the new testament that seem to make Jesus God (or at least divine) and then you can also find "the holy spirit" in both the OT and NT. I would argue that if you study the wording of the text carefully you'll see that the holy spirit often describes the "presence" of God. God is not a person but rather a "force" or "spirit". In Genesis 1 it says God created everything but when it gives a location it says the "spirit of God" moved across the face of the water. There's kind of a Clark Kent vs Superman effect because they're never in 2 different places. And if you just stop and force yourself to consider very basic questions like: Is the Father holy? Is the Father a spirit? (the answers to both are yes) Then fundamentally the Father is a holy spirit therefore saying "the holy spirit" cannot be a title that differentiates one spirit from the Father.

If God is a spirit, as the bible says, then what about Jesus?

I believe the Trinity was a bit of a failed attempt to understand the tri-unity of the mind, body, and spirit. I think what we were being led to was this idea that the Father represents the mind, the Son the body, and the spirit the energetic animating force which is both physical and not.

Early Christians didn't really know what to do with this question. My dad gave me a book to look at when I was young and questioning this. I had no idea there were 7 different views concerning this and they were in a battle for supremacy until Constantine gathered the bishops and they decided what was going to be "universal" (catholic) to Christianity.

In most of these 7 different views Jesus was divine. That was a given. They were trying to make that divinity work within the context of the old testament's one God. I think they got it wrong because their human instinct was to worship the divine and gods as external cosmic beings and intelligent agencies. They didn't quite have the same history of all the pagans, many of whom personified deities without actually believing they were real people. I believe, in essence, Jesus was a Jedi.

That is... Jesus accepted his own divinity in the sense that the Force was acting through him. And that gave him great power which led to myths and legends being written about him. But I think he understood God as a Force working within us. "Above all, in all, and through all". The bible says let this same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus" so I think even the disciples understood that the Father was this MIND and Jesus was the body, the physical container for the indwelling of the holy spirit; which again... is the transcendent presence of God.

Jews of Jesus day could understand and accept this version but many many Jews died rather than accept the version offered by the Catholic church after they decided to make Jesus into a co-equal branch of the office (a concept that didn't quite exist) of God. And they rejected this version of Jesus because it was against the fundamental tenants of their religion.

The Hebrew text says that YHVH said to Moses, "I have made you elohim to Pharoah." Two different words, one the unpronounceable name of God and the other the word used throughout the OT for both true gods and false. (It's also an interesting word in itself, in that it appears to be a feminine plural word, but I won't go too far down that rabbit hole.) Among other things, in Genesis, when God moves on the face of the waters, that's also elohim.

I'm not going to be overly involved in this discussion, not being Christian and therefore not having a vote in Christian theology, but I got curious about what language was used...

My source for the Hebrew: https://biblehub.com/text/exodus/7-1.htm
(My Hebrew is not up for this task on its own.)

Kasumi wrote: The Hebrew text says that YHVH said to Moses, "I have made you elohim to Pharoah." Two different words, one the unpronounceable name of God and the other the word used throughout the OT for both true gods and false. (It's also an interesting word in itself, in that it appears to be a feminine plural word, but I won't go too far down that rabbit hole.) Among other things, in Genesis, when God moves on the face of the waters, that's also elohim.

I'm not going to be overly involved in this discussion, not being Christian and therefore not having a vote in Christian theology, but I got curious about what language was used...

My source for the Hebrew: https://biblehub.com/text/exodus/7-1.htm
(My Hebrew is not up for this task on its own.)

I'm not a Christian either but if you ask me that point is entirely valid. When I was a young Christian when I heard certain words like "worship" my brain filled in the rest and I assumed that such words were only applicable in the context of God with a capital G. I didn't know anything at that point about how they translated it and how el, al, il, and ol are essentially the same partially because ancient Hebrew didn't have vowels and so the Masorites introduced the vowel pointing system. It's easier to believe there's no difference between the English and the Hebrew Greek and bits of Aramaic sprinkled in. People want to simplify their faith, not make it more complicated.

But the reality is that they did not have "kodesh" or "set apart" (holy) words that were only usable within the context of religion. I remember when my Christian peers would argue that Jesus had to be God because he received worship and only God can be worshipped. However, what they didn't take into account was that the words used were not invented by priests. The bible says clearly that the kings were worshipped. So that tells me that it is a relative word. You can give your child "praise" for doing well in school without it being the same "praise" Christians give to God. Same with worship. The respect given to a king doesn't have to be the same as the respect given to God. Even the word used for God was also used for men because it is a word associated with power. So men in authority were gods. Men who were mighty in battle were gods. Except that... in English the word gods would not be appropriate. We would say "powerful" and "mighty" but the meaning in Hebrew is the same. In English people would get confused but in OLD English it was permissible which is why it was translated that way.

When Jesus, for example, said "ye are gods" this was an OT reference to "judges" which are very much powerful authority figures. But in English people often struggle with what to do with it. That's why I believe the Trinity was a hasty decision that they came to without a full picture of the TNK; the Hebrew Scriptures. Remember, that in those times there were very few copies. People didn't have bibles in their homes. And it was doubtful that the gentiles who were often not even allowed to come all the way into the synagogue would have been allowed to study the scriptures that weren't even in their language. What they could read would have been Greek copies and if Greek has differences with Hebrew like English does then it wouldn't have been hard for them to get confused.

EXODUS 7:8-12

Then the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, “When Pharaoh speaks to you, saying, ‘Show a miracle for yourselves,’ then you shall say to Aaron,‘Take your rod and cast it before Pharaoh, and let it become a serpent.’ ” So Moses and Aaron went in to Pharaoh, and they did so, just as the Lord commanded. And Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
But Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers; so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. For every man threw down his rod, and they became serpents. But Aaron’s rod swallowed up their rods.

For the purposes of getting through the main points, we’re going to skip some of the verses. However, I want to point out that throughout each of these next two plagues, God instructs Moses on exactly what to say. Moses is told to specifically outline what is coming next, so that everyone present is aware that all of it is by design.

Exodus 7:19-23

Then the Lord spoke to Moses, “Say to Aaron, ‘Take your rod and stretch out your hand over the waters of Egypt, over their streams, over their rivers, over their ponds, and over all their pools of water, that they may become blood. And there shall be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in buckets of wood and pitchers of stone.’ ” 20And Moses and Aaron did so, just as the Lord commanded. So he lifted up the rod and struck the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh and in the sight of his servants. And all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood. 21The fish that were in the river died, the river stank, and the Egyptians could not drink the water of the river. So there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt.
Then the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments; and Pharaoh’s heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the Lord had said.

EXODUS 8:5-7

Then the Lord spoke to Moses, “Say to Aaron, ‘Stretch out your hand with your rod over the streams, over the rivers, and over the ponds, and cause frogs to come up on the land of Egypt.’ ” So Aaron stretched out his hand over the waters of Egypt, and the frogs came up and covered the land of Egypt.
And the magicians did so with their enchantments, and brought up frogs on the land of Egypt.

What are some things you notice? Are there differences between the magicians and what Moses is doing?
What do you think is the deciding value of their abilities?

Alethea Thompson wrote:

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EXODUS 7:8-12

Then the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, “When Pharaoh speaks to you, saying, ‘Show a miracle for yourselves,’ then you shall say to Aaron,‘Take your rod and cast it before Pharaoh, and let it become a serpent.’ ” So Moses and Aaron went in to Pharaoh, and they did so, just as the Lord commanded. And Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
But Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers; so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. For every man threw down his rod, and they became serpents. But Aaron’s rod swallowed up their rods.

For the purposes of getting through the main points, we’re going to skip some of the verses. However, I want to point out that throughout each of these next two plagues, God instructs Moses on exactly what to say. Moses is told to specifically outline what is coming next, so that everyone present is aware that all of it is by design.

Exodus 7:19-23

Then the Lord spoke to Moses, “Say to Aaron, ‘Take your rod and stretch out your hand over the waters of Egypt, over their streams, over their rivers, over their ponds, and over all their pools of water, that they may become blood. And there shall be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in buckets of wood and pitchers of stone.’ ” 20And Moses and Aaron did so, just as the Lord commanded. So he lifted up the rod and struck the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh and in the sight of his servants. And all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood. 21The fish that were in the river died, the river stank, and the Egyptians could not drink the water of the river. So there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt.
Then the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments; and Pharaoh’s heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the Lord had said.

EXODUS 8:5-7

Then the Lord spoke to Moses, “Say to Aaron, ‘Stretch out your hand with your rod over the streams, over the rivers, and over the ponds, and cause frogs to come up on the land of Egypt.’ ” So Aaron stretched out his hand over the waters of Egypt, and the frogs came up and covered the land of Egypt.
And the magicians did so with their enchantments, and brought up frogs on the land of Egypt.

What are some things you notice? Are there differences between the magicians and what Moses is doing?
What do you think is the deciding value of their abilities?

for the record, I don't really like Moses due to the genocide he commanded upon his own people. I just want to make that bias clear and beg your forgiveness for speaking on the subject.

With that being said, please forgive me for saying this, but since the bible was written after the events that are described we cannot really say what everyone knew in the moment. There's no dialogue in your two examples where Moses tells the people exactly what God told him to do beforehand and what the result would be.

He tells the reader what God told him to do, but not the Egyptians. He simply does it. And as you read his account of their reaction they weren't very impressed by his miracles. He (the writer) seems to accept that they (the Egyptians) are also doing miraculous things. The difference in quality of these miracles is what is in question and of course the side that wrote the biblical account wins in that department.

This is like me saying that I played Basketball with Michael Jordan before and I won 21 to 6. Some might believe me but the more critical one is of the story the less likely it is and the more you'd want to ask Michael Jordan if it ever happened and if it did, what the score was. I did play against a guy who claimed to be Michael's cousin and although this happened in Montreal Canada I still believed him because of the way he said it. That game, I did win. Can I prove it? No.

Point is, it's much easier to craft a narrative after the fact; especially one in which you are the hero and that people should respect and follow you based on this account. I do think something happened, but I don't think it was a magical faceoff. I think there was a volcanic eruption and none of them knew what that was or what the effects of such were. I think many if not most myths start with at least a grain of truth. If you study religions in that region you see this emphasis on mountain gods. This even translates to mount Olympus. Why is the father of the Olympian gods tied to a "lightning bolt?" I think it is because lighting was the thing most feared and it is a common product of volcanoes.

Why did the Israelites travel towards mt Sinai (which is not the same as the current one), following a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night? What kind of mountain has these two features in common? A volcano.

What seems more likely is that they mythologized this volcanic event and attributed the effects of it to their God and this is compatible because their definition of the word God is literally "power". The sun was seen as a source of power so why wouldn't a volcano be? They both produce fire and light.

I think YHWH was basically a personification of energy/power that, like the stars, would guide them and lead them to victory against their enemies and help them survive. The rest is kinda what they interpreted based on their own superstitions and imagination which produced and inspired a lot of wisdom and knowledge that is fruitful for people of all religions.

ZealotX, I had 2 requests:

1) And this is the most important- If you’re going to quote the study post, remove the picture so people can easily locate the posts that are directly the study material.

2) If you believe the Bible is nothing more than myth, then use the physics of the Bible so we can continue and prevent this from turning into a discussion of whether the stories are true. If you want THAT discussion, then there’s a whole forum here called “Abrahamic” you can start your own thread in.

Thanks Alethea!

I struggle to take these stories too literally but am happy to consider what the authors were trying to say and trying to explain. To me the mythological 'truth' is much more important than the historical truth (which we will never know). This summarises a potential set of natural causes for the plagues:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/7530678/Biblical-plagues-really-happened-say-scientists.html

The Nile turning to blood sounds a lot like a red algal bloom. That would have killed the fish and caused the frogs to swarm out of the river. 3000 years ago the best explanation of this would be magic and/or God. Its interesting that God doesn’t perform the miracle himself – rather he tells Moses what to say to Aaron, and then it is Aaron that actually performs the magic. This mechanism is consistent with the time, where the over-arching paradigm to explain natural events was transitioning from magic to religion. These stories are really good examples of this cultural evolution.

A similar chain of causation occurs with the rods: It is Aaron who performs the magic. Pharoah’s wizards then perform the same magic – inferring that Moses, Aaron and the wizards were of the same school of magic. However, Aaron’s magic was stronger and it was his rod that ate the wizards’ rods. Symbolically this shows that:

Magic + God > Magic alone.

As time moves on, magic is culturally reduced to conjuring, and it is religion that is favoured to explain natural and ‘super-natural’ phenomena. Today, of course, we favour science. To me, these stories illustrate the immense power of natural forces operating in this environment at the time: rapid sea level rise, rapid climate change and how vulnerable civilisation was to these forces. Without wanting to stretch this line of argument too far, it also places humanity as a causal factor in these natural forces. Plenty of relevance to today I'd say!

Alethea Thompson wrote: ZealotX, I had 2 requests:

1) And this is the most important- If you’re going to quote the study post, remove the picture so people can easily locate the posts that are directly the study material.

2) If you believe the Bible is nothing more than myth, then use the physics of the Bible so we can continue and prevent this from turning into a discussion of whether the stories are true. If you want THAT discussion, then there’s a whole forum here called “Abrahamic” you can start your own thread in.

I think I understand point 1. We're talking about the fish symbol, right? I wasn't aware, but my apologies.

2) That's not actually what I believe. I believe the bible was a state sanctioned library of books that were for some writers "inspired" and for others different uses. My point about Moses is that he is a man and therefore should not be trusted just because he is being featured in the story as a tool of "God". It was his people (his supporters) who wrote that story. I'm not suggesting they made it up because I don't think the story makes him look good. Instead, I read it as political spin. And whether "God" was behind him remains to be seen. Instead, we're trained by our religion to assume that because "it is written".

Let's think about it this way. Star Wars Episode I and II go back in time and set up the story of Anakin Skywalker. He's regarded by some to be the chosen one and by others to be a potential threat. Master Yoda and master Windu were very wary if not skeptical. They did not accept this narrative that some others were feeding into because they believed they knew and understood the prophecy. In the end they were almost completely wiped out by Anakin turned Vader who committed his own genocide against the future generation of Jedi at the temple. At this point we KNOW he had crossed over to the dark side.

So my point on why I have a bias against Moses is an honest perspective judging him by his actions, not by his prominence in the story or in Judeo Christian history. He's the hero of his story but he also commanded genocide against all those who weren't willing to go along with his authority; an authority that came from his own claim of interacting with God. The natural reaction is to believe him but again... he's like Anakin. When you commit genocide then, for ME, your journey to the dark side is complete.

This is important to the question of how much should Christians interact with it. And I quote:
"Whatever it is, another question comes to mind: How are we, as Christians, suppose to interact with it? Should we interact with it at all?"

I perfectly remember when I thought of this same Moses as a hero, knowing full well the whole story of how he threw down the commandments, forced the Israelites to drink the golden calf, and ordered many of them to be executed. At that time I was substituting my own judgment for the biblical narrative. It's the same thing as when a nation invades or conquers a new land, doing all kinds of unspeakable evils towards the indigenous population but somehow portraying themselves as the good guys; the cowboys vs the indians. My mind was conditioned from a young age to accept the narrative without questioning it. So I speak out knowing the dangers of that conditioning.

When we accept the narrative we can deceive ourselves into not using our own individual critical thinking, skepticism, or even empathy for the victims. Anakin went through this as he was being seduced by Sidious to turn against democracy. The Star Wars saga shows us the danger of seeing things in absolutes. Hard for me to fully describe but in the end this is how we end up in the clutches of Satan.

"But I do know that because I’ve explored this topic, I understand how easy it is to convince ourselves that we are doing God’s work- but are in fact falling further into Satan’s clutches."

Brilliant reasoning. I really is. I applaud this statement. Many people are asleep and cannot reach this level of understanding.

The Satan is assumed by the reader to be dark, ugly, and obviously evil by the cover of the book alone. This is part of the reason I chose the avatar I did. Because true evil wears a mask of goodness to seem more appealing. The fruit isn't spoiled. It looks good to eat. Satan was an angel of light, thought to be most powerful and beautiful... The Chosen One. There is no account of satan being cursed and deformed in any way. The visage of the "devil" is one only of metaphor.

Of course it doesn't sound like something God would do; making a being superior to all others knowing these very features would corrupt him. What it sounds like is satan's own narrative. "I'm the best. I'm the strongest. I'm the most handsome. I sing the best. I, I, I"

And when we play the game of "our God is stronger than your God" and we fight other people, take their land while claiming God gave it to us because they are sinful... (absolutely) while women are taken as spoils, children are killed, people are enslaved... which God is being followed if this is the result? Perhaps it is the Sith leading them in disguise. Israel foreign politics after they were slaves seems to have been bent on creating the same type of militaristic empire that later conquered and ruled over them.

So again... It's not that I don't believe any of it happened. It's more like, I want to look at what happened without the hero bias where Moses and gang are automatically the good guys because the story is about them. Let's not assume this. They want us to assume this so we can believe God told him to do those things; ALL those things. What if he didn't? What if he was under the influence of Satan? Would he know the difference? Do you trust him to know the difference? A man who didn't argue against the killing of the firstborn of Egypt? IMHO A Jedi would not be okay with that.

Ah, I understand.

In that case, you’re getting a bit ahead of the game then .

The study of the Plagues in the first week was never about heroism. Actually Week 2 is where you’re suppose to start questioning Moses’ actions as being what God intended. . And we’ll definitely get to that- because there are some definite “huh?” moments laced in there.

The 10 Plagues, for the purposes of this study, is only meant to address the metaphysics. That’s why the questions are only looking at the “magical” stuff written into the text. Moses (or Aaron for that matter) literally doesn’t matter yet- save one minor detail I’ll address just before we get to the Red Sea and begin analyzing Mose’s “magical” acts outside of Egypt.