How should I handle this situation?

Background: I was raised Christian. I am currently a atheist leaning agnostic; agnostic only because I think there is simply a level of existence and history that we simply cannot claim to know. But I don't believe in a personal deity or intelligent design, etc. My ex-wife and mother of my children became something of a Satanist after we split. Long stories abound here and I can give further detail where you think it's relevant. My ex and I have an agreement that is mutually beneficial, imo, to the wellbeing of our children. She doesn't want them exposed to Christianity and I don't want them exposed to witchcraft and whatever else she believes in. My kids are 8 and 5 and my step daughter is 11. We are currently going through a divorce which also makes me extra careful about over reacting or pushing any buttons because there is a risk that she will move out of state. So there's a delicate balance there that motivates compromise.

The Problem: Although I've talked to her about this several times, my mother likes to push her beliefs. Over the weekend I was out of town and my kids had a sleepover at my mother's house. My ex sent me a text talking about how my mother gave one of my kids a book about Jesus and now she thinks he's real. She's 8 years old. She doesn't have any tools on which to divide factual information from hearsay, rumors, etc. With little kids you often have to teach them that what they see on TV isn't real and is created by computers. What my mother has been told is that it's not that they are never allowed to be exposed to Christianity but that we wanted them to be at an older age where they have more objectivity and understanding; when they're not just going to believe whatever you tell them because of who it's coming from.

So.....

Now this puts me in a position where I feel like my hand is forced. I think it is unrealistic to try to shelter them from religion entirely, but at the same time most sources of religion believe it 100%. In fact, part of their religious ideology is that they have to have faith which underscores and highlights the lack of evidence such that one should never expect that the evidence will corroborate the stories. And so she will never get the whole story from my mother, only the parts of the story that Christians choose to believe. And while that's okay for them, it's not okay to me. If she's going to be exposed before she's ready now I feel like the only way to really fix it is to give her the whole story or at least as much of the other side of the story equal with the amount that she's heard on the side that believes in Jesus.

Whether Jesus existed is debatable. I think he did exist. However, what's far more debatable is who he actually was in relation to the story. No matter what I say in response it may seem like I'm reacting by pushing a personal belief or bias. I don't want to do that. But I don't want to leave her with only one side of a story where now her mother might feel like why not do the same with satanism or witchcraft. These are complicated subjects and everyone seems to get defensive about their own beliefs. And even if I warn her against things which aren't falsifiable; meaning that "hey, people can say anything as long as part of the story is that you can't disprove it." that's still more or less a kind of faith in science and reason in a world in which we cannot completely disprove the existence of any deity. And if she simply WANTS to believe it... just like her grandmother wants to believe it and wants her offspring to as well, then again, that opens the door to what others including myself WANT her to believe.

Any suggestions?

Just an opinion, it's hard to approach for sure; but I think education is now vital. I (again opinion haven't been to this point with a child), I would begin showing her some more and different texts and as young as she is the explanation that here are these texts that explain to people in manner of speaking something bigger than themselves. But, there are a lot of different paths, that each of these explain, even science has theories and questions. So, act as indifferent but she has to be exposed to the reality of different types of religion/faith/codes of life. So, that she can make an informed decision when the time is right. You're going to always want to have her believe in what you want her to. The thing is you just have to accept what she comes to on her own. Thing is if she does think of it now she will think of it in the future when she has gotten older. All of us have, right. Just my humble opinion.

My own opinion .
I am Jedi 100 percent . I subscribe to the ALL MYTH . I know who I am . I can only do what I am capable of. Some days I am cable of more. Some days I can learn to do more.
Now , there are many many MANY stories of small examples that make big differences. Many movies stories and myths use this idea. So many small examples of true dedication to the same idea to make the greater change. I used to wonder and say in my head what could I do ... Little Ol me. Yea , I stopped asking and began to do... Act . Now , long story short ... I am able to be the constant my family needs and my friends. I am the light that needs to be seen. Some need to be see any way lol . All joking aside , life is full and some times we can't have "controll" of a lot of things we like , I know I would love more but rather than let it keep you down and bum you out , sounds to me brother your family needs dad and you rather than labels . Try the dad label on as who you are ... Harder to do than say but possible . Put on the dad as ... You , for me it's .... I'm a Jedi I'm a dad Ima Decon knight I'm a all that and a dad so how would I act like that dad I want or that brother I want to be. That light ... Wow I can only speak from experience ... That light when you become all of them ... All of you )... Things change !

I'll tell you this strait , that situation sucks bro. When it come to our legacies ... Man it's like exposed nerves. Even breathing on it hurts it's so fragile . Children ... How do you keep them safe and from harm...

Ever read the Harry Potter series? I was floored when I got the new continued story and Harry and the wizard are talking . Without revealing much he asks the wizArd how do I keep my son safe ... How are you asking me ... How do I keep a child safe ... I can imagine the look the old man gave him. He said ..."you ask me of all people... How to protect a boy in terrible danger ( no implication your family is in any danger any way just as an example) we can NOT ( my emphasis) protect the young from harm. Pain will and must come ."
Harry says what am I supposed to do just watch ? The wizard says ..." No , your supposed to teach him how to meet life."
The potter series is my wife's thing. One of 123 reasons I love her and can actually name . Now when I read that .. It was like a light hit . Insubcrine to the ALL MYTH . Every Myth for every man. This light I found was so Georgious glow. I glow it now as we speak. I won't ever tell anyone what to do , not my cup of tea . What I can say is this is what Hapen to me. It changed me, on the inside. It helps. I hope that helps . We can't be there every step in every second , impossible and don't worry your self doing that, very harmful to the mind body and soul if we try and continue to worry like that, I think that's where wrinkles come from! Pm me if you got any questions friend and may the Gorce be with you every where you seek it

You have a big problem indeed imo , by denying both of you to share your faith with your children you have set yourself up for failure in inter-human and family ,relationships , i think its the childrens mothers good right to explain what she believes in , and your good right to explain what you believe is and , if you want your kids to have a good relationship with their Nan she should be allowed to share her religion aswell , i would advice you to have a bit more faith in your children , i was brought up inter religious with one side telling me Jezus was a liar and the other that Jezus was the Messiah , and family members that were claiming they were clairvoyant etc , its part of life , your kids will pick a lot of this up at school etc , when your daughter comes home with a book about Jezus , leave it in the middle if Jezus exsist or not , you and your ex both have no right to ask the other to not talk to their children what moves you. Its a paralizing argument and obviously causing unneeded conflict. But that is just my opinion ...

If you push your beliefs on your children, what makes you different than others?

Parents are the primary educators of their children. It is not the states responsibility, the internet, TV or their peers’ job to do… it is the parent’s responsibility.

Informing your children of your beliefs is not pushing something on them. Offering a counter view to one being given them is the best thing one can do. Just make sure to do it in a manner that does not scare the crap out of them or confuse them. And remember, children learn a lot by the example we set.

Amyntas wrote: You have a big problem indeed imo , by denying both of you to share your faith with your children you have set yourself up for failure in inter-human and family ,relationships , i think its the childrens mothers good right to explain what she believes in , and your good right to explain what you believe is and , if you want your kids to have a good relationship with their Nan she should be allowed to share her religion aswell , i would advice you to have a bit more faith in your children , i was brought up inter religious with one side telling me Jezus was a liar and the other that Jezus was the Messiah , and family members that were claiming they were clairvoyant etc , its part of life , your kids will pick a lot of this up at school etc , when your daughter comes home with a book about Jezus , leave it in the middle if Jezus exsist or not , you and your ex both have no right to ask the other to not talk to their children what moves you. Its a paralizing argument and obviously causing unneeded conflict. But that is just my opinion ...

Thank you for your opinion on this matter. I'm not denying anyone's right to share information with their child or grandchild. However, the question is when.

If one of your parents says Jesus was a liar and the other says he is the messiah, maybe you choose neither because of the conflicting views or maybe you choose one based on your level of trust for the person making that argument. Either way, a child who cannot separate fact or fiction from an adult should not, imho, be put in a position to choose which adult in her life to believe or who to trust. The worst thing to me is that maybe she thinks granny is telling the truth because she believes it so strongly and because she's older, not because she convinced her with facts and evidence. Sorting these things out before one is mentally equipped is, at least, confusing and even the bible says that God is not the author of confusion.

Let's say the 3 of us (mother, father, grandmother) were teaching the same child math. What if the question was what is 2 + 2? And what if my answer was 4 and the other 2 were different? Well each person with a belief tends to have a bias (go figure) towards their belief. That's why they choose it. So essentially we're all saying 3 different things to an extent but we all think our answer is the one true correct answer.

steamboat28 wrote: If you push your beliefs on your children, what makes you different than others?

Please understand that there is an inherent credibility that a parent has that a parent lends to the ideas they teach their child. When a grandparent uses her authority and credibility to back one particular myth, leading to one particular religion, I would at the very least, want to use my own credibility in order to cancel out the effect of her grandmother's credibility on the subject matter so that she can believe more freely, not based on what I say, or she says, or anyone says; but rather believe based on what makes the most sense to her.

But witnessing the power of religious indoctrination up close I can tell you that when you can get the very rational brain of a child to ignore the basic rules of reality and subscribe to an imaginary friend with magic powers... that reality defying feat doesn't mean you just made a masterful argument that no child could argue against. It just means they trust you. Using that trust to push YOUR beliefs isn't fair to their development. I have decided to educate her in a way to understand why people believe myths so that she doesn't have to debate whether or not these adults are lying to her because that's not fair for an 8 year old to have to do. Education, not conclusions, is my goal.

Why couldn't you explain to your children what each of you believe, but at that they don't have to believe? We teach religious education in schools so that kids are equipped to understand people believe different things. Why not offer that education to your children yourself?

but we all think our answer is the one true correct answer.

Problem located , how are you going to solve it ?

Faith is not mathematically equitable.

It is a trust, a confidence in something unprovable. Not because we can prove it but because it is good; and, in our hearts we know it is true.
“Our knowledge has made us cynical. Our cleverness, hard and unkind. We think too much and feel too little… More than cleverness we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost.” Charlie Chaplin, the Great Dictator ~ the Barber’s Speech

But they aren't "lying". They're "educating" about their beliefs. You cannot prove or disprove "myth", because it's all true (metaphorically) regardless of whether or not it happened or exists.

Educate, but be careful how you do so, or you will be indoctrinating the same as someone else. We all like to believe we're "right", but true knowledge lies in knowing we don't know.

Edan wrote: Why couldn't you explain to your children what each of you believe, but at that they don't have to believe? We teach religious education in schools so that kids are equipped to understand people believe different things. Why not offer that education to your children yourself?

Because by the very act of me telling them what I believe or think is true I'm automatically committing my credibility to it. It would be different if I was addressing a classroom. My kids want to know what I like, what my favorite things are, any they ask a thousand questions as they continuously strive to know their parents and where they came from and what's normal relative to themselves. If I said the world is flat they might think I was joking but if they thought I was serious then if they didn't have the means to falsify that opinion they might take it as fact. Unfortunately, this is what happened when my mother got involved. Now my 8 year old thinks Jesus is real and its not because Jesus spoke to her... or her heart spoke to her... or donkey spoke to her... but because a person of high esteem spoke to her. That's not a good reason, in my opinion, for my child, to be a believer in Jesus. Everyone can feel free to disagree based upon their own beliefs but I don't want my kids accepting something that isn't falsifiable based on someone's word alone.

Wescli Wardest wrote: Faith is not mathematically equitable.

It is a trust, a confidence in something unprovable. Not because we can prove it but because it is good; and, in our hearts we know it is true.
“Our knowledge has made us cynical. Our cleverness, hard and unkind. We think too much and feel too little… More than cleverness we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost.” Charlie Chaplin, the Great Dictator ~ the Barber’s Speech

Thank you for your opinion. However, how do you know what you just said is true?

There are all manner of things said about faith, but that doesn't mean people understand where it comes from or why a religion would reinforce it by saying that you have to have it. People are playing hide and go seek with a deity that has no reason to play this game, no reason to hide from his creations, no reason to talk in code, no reason to have as his mouthpieces, murderers and liars, no reason to require human inventions like writing or the printing press to spread his messages. I could go on and on and on and I never even had questions like these before I stopped having blind faith.

I did not have the opportunity, as a child, to decide if Jesus was real or not. It was taught to us by every credible adult in our lives. I even spent a couple early years in a religious school. This amounts to psychological reinforcement. There are children born and raised in cults and no one thinks to free them because that's what their parents taught. There are children that are even married to older perverts because they make up some religious basis for it. And when you don't have any skepticism or independent thought, creating a buffer between your brain and the external forces of the world, you can potentially create a gullibility that is willing to accept literally anything.

Including this:


and this:

steamboat28 wrote: But they aren't "lying". They're "educating" about their beliefs. You cannot prove or disprove "myth", because it's all true (metaphorically) regardless of whether or not it happened or exists.

Educate, but be careful how you do so, or you will be indoctrinating the same as someone else. We all like to believe we're "right", but true knowledge lies in knowing we don't know.

This video contains a beard, bad singing, and some foul language

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k3kal8Xzu8

I don't disagree with you. However, you are an adult and using the logic of an adult.

A child may not tell you that they think you're lying, but if they define a lie as a statement that isn't true, or false... then to them it is a lie. The nuances in life tend to comes when we get a little older. To be considered a lie it has to be intentional but false statements told with sincerity and/or passion often appear to be more truthful. And children aren't lie detectors. At a certain age they can be convinced that a fat man somehow squeezes down their chimney and delivers toys every year. Critical thinking is something that has to develop. And again, if my child was presented with a myth that would be a different story. However, she was presented with a real person and therefore thinks Jesus is real. She's 8.

“By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of God. I've seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves. And goodness - what God desires - is here (points to Balian's head ) and here (points to Balian's heart ) and by what you decide to do every day you will be a good man...or not.” Hospitaller, the Kingdom of Heaven

The evil actions of men can always be cited.
So can the acts of kindness.
Which I notice you did not cite.
But neither one of these is faith. Faith is what incites one to act upon what is taught or one believes. Your child will have faith in something rather you like it or not; just as you do. The question is, what will your child have faith in?

Wescli Wardest wrote: “By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of God. I've seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves. And goodness - what God desires - is here (points to Balian's head ) and here (points to Balian's heart ) and by what you decide to do every day you will be a good man...or not.” Hospitaller, the Kingdom of Heaven

The evil actions of men can always be cited.
So can the acts of kindness.
Which I notice you did not cite.
But neither one of these is faith. Faith is what incites one to act upon what is taught or one believes. Your child will have faith in something rather you like it or not; just as you do. The question is, what will your child have faith in?

hopefully, and what I want to encourage most of all, is faith in themselves. I also want them to have faith that their parents have their best interests at heart so that they can live with a sense of security and stability without that being questioned by other family members.

Even if people use Jesus or Yahweh as totems on which to place faith... because these are motivating figures that "live" in the mind, the faith given to them is somewhat indirectly self-serving. Some people think Jesus helps them win football games. But if they play harder because of this belief it can be beneficial. Many children start off with imaginary friends and this is healthy. It is only at the point that the imaginary takes the place of real live friends and a real live sense of self-esteem that it's a problem. But again... she's 8. Her faith isn't really in Jesus. It's in the person who told her Jesus is real. Just like many believers would not believe (no offense intended) in Jesus if the bible was never written. And so it isn't so much that they believe in Jesus. They believe in what was written about Jesus in the bible because their faith is in the writers. And often when scholars study the writings they lose their faith because that trust in those writers is really the basis of their belief, perhaps not in a higher power in general, but certainly in the mythical narrative of the Hebrews. Most of Jesus's believers do not even know him outside of the NT. Most do not care to. But that's another argument, outside the scope of an 8 yr old believing the testimony of a grandmother.

"Your child will have faith in something rather you like it or not; just as you do. The question is, what will your child have faith in?"
If i may add also to me ..my question is as well what part will I play in it ? That can be a huge factor in our focus as well. With offspring it hard to give advice as every path is different so are our little paths as well". I have yet to be disappointed in the results of that idea light focus when I apply it .. Often . Intention on the parents part is huge too are you gunna be the flow of what that child needs Rightbnow or what they get already from every one else.? Being Jedi is even tougher when you add any percentage of these extra lights! Of now more than ever the world needs the Jedi mom and dads who are Jedi Christian Jedi Jew , more open hearted than close minded . That's my own opinion but i feed those who are hungry and ask their names at the table as I feed them. . Balls in your court , action is to you , hope some of this helps your path be a bit ... More

This seems to be a prime opportunity to teach your children about diversity.

In my opinion, its difficult to control the actions of others, so it's on us to change the way we see and respond to a situation. Take power in what you can do and engage in conversations with your children about everyone's beliefs. I'm sure your children will appreciate it more if you remain open and honest about the range of beliefs and didn't draw religious boundaries between their circle of support. Try to convince all parties to be understanding of the situation in order to preserve the family peace and the adults role within the family system. At the end of the day, children are going to believe thousands of things before they settle on what they think is right. Positively encouraging them to make those choices it's beneficial to a healthy development.

I hope this helps!