Evolutionism

Rickie The Grey wrote: God years. That's an interesting veiw to take. I like it.

Is that like dog years?

Creation or not, creationism (as I looked up in both the Oxford and Webster dictionaries) supposes quite specifically that the the theory of evolution is incorrect. In fact, both definitions mentioned specifically the biblical creation mith and not others, although the first point in itself is enough to say the creationist position is wrong.

However, my comment was going to be about the biblical creation story that depicts rather explicitly on which day which thing is created and all of those are more or less spoken into existence and specially created. So while one can have a vague creation notion that includes modern findings of cosmology and evolutionary biology, suffice it to say that to that end the actual creation myth as it is being told must be disregarded or bent and twisted to make it sound like something it doesn't say, as Vesha illustrated. And of course there is also the problem that several cores of the Christian doctrine can only be logically explained and justified if a literal understanding of the Genesis accounts of creation and early history is being accepted. But, of course, for every event depicted in there we either have no way of verifying it as a part of actual history or we have every way to falsify.
But yes, that is creationism by definition. If we want to switch the topic and go on to talk about just believing in any creation notion that has been proposed, the superfluous and complicating assumption that they require to be taken on nil evidence is not a sufficient but a good reason to refrain from belief for the time being. The reason there is not a great (public) debate between the notion of any creation and science as much as creationism and science is that belief in just some sort of creation doesn't in itself carry the baggage of e.g. stories or conclusions we know to be false. So the opposition against creationism is mainly concerned with people who use their beliefs to make people or teach children to feel miserable about themselves or that since the earth was created to the disposal of our special position within creation, environmental politics should be no worthy talking matter. Of course teaching people to have faith rather than evidence also has other very very dangerous implications, too, but creationism as a movement is not unique in its promoting the values of certainty over curiosity.

So yes, creation (as an idea) and creationism are not the same and hardly even close to being the same. I think we ought to decide on what it is we are discussing here (beside evolution, that is) and not confuse ourselves or each other more than we need to.

Yes Vesha, I tell time in my own way....

"A few minutes ago" could have been an hour or more, even a day...

"Just the other day" is sometime within the last three weeks...

"Last week" could be anywhere in the last month or two...

Etc, etc...

My family realizes this, and has discussions accordingly...

Khaos wrote:

Rickie The Grey wrote: God years. That's an interesting veiw to take. I like it.

Is that like dog years?

I think you may be teasing, but, yea, a bit... lol...

Look at a dog...

We are there for there birth, and their death, to them, we are eternal... I used the mayfly because they can live and die in a few hours... Or as long as a day or two...

To a mayfly, if it has/had the consciousness to understand we exist, how would we appear? Several thousands of generations would appear and die and we would still be here... Eternal....

If we had/learn the consciousness to understand the force/god, it may not appear so... appear so mysterious... lol...

ren wrote: creation is the view that our world must have been created. And that the being that created it himself did not need to have been created. Such a being is therefore beyond time and space... And has no "workshop" and doesnt take any kind of time (days or years) to create anything.

Well, that sounds flawed... lol...

I could see where it would obviously mean the this is created by something, but to say that, that something wasn't created seems to be reaching, lol, never mind the workshop bit...

Interesting...

Consider these statements.

God wasn't created.

The Force wasn't created.

The Universe wasn't created.

Is one reaching but not another? What's the difference? Why?

Br. John wrote: Consider these statements.

God wasn't created.

The Force wasn't created.

The Universe wasn't created.

Is one reaching but not another? What's the difference? Why?

I personally believe The universe has always existed in one form or another and the force is movement/change. The concept of a god seems like a conductor in an orchestra. The problem to me is the music of life will play the same without the conductor. We are tiny spec in a otherwise lifeless cosmos. I would expect far more if this was a grand design.

We are there for there birth, and their death, to them, we are eternal

Or were just older... There is a chance that they dont percieve time differently, so much as just dont live as long.

My mother didnt percieve time differently from my father, she just got cancer and died sooner.

Now, we could argue that a dog or a mayfly doesnt measure time, but I am arguing that they do percieve it, and can understand it in regards to there own biology, such I can percieve the differences at 32 from 22.

A mayfly doesnt know it only has two days, as in 24 hours, etc, but I dont think that means it sees us( if if it even contemplates us at all) as eternal.

All conjecture though, as I cant question the dog, or the mayfly.

I would expect God, if he is God, to not need a million years to create, chances are, he would need less than a second.

Now, you might say thats a million years to us, but then, as I measure time, thats pretty slow for a deity.

I speak pretty fast, and apparently the Christian God spoke the world into being.

Now, I have to assume a deity can think, act,process, and even create on a timeline much,much shorter than me.

If he is working on roughly the same timeline that it took us to get to where we are, not only do I find that just a tad to convenient, but, I have to question the ability, and mental processes, of said deity.

Sucks we apparently got the one with ADD. :lol:

Br. John wrote: Consider these statements.

God wasn't created.

The Force wasn't created.

The Universe wasn't created.

Is one reaching but not another? What's the difference? Why?

God was not created and The Force was not created.
I see them as equal.
In every thing . . everywhere in the universe as it is now known and beyond.
The Universe was not created.
There is no place where The Force is not, is the same to me as there is no place where God is not.
The Force/God is eternal and ever present.

I see a holographic view which is my own evolution from a tapestry and a grand designer.

No Khaos, and although cancer is becoming more prominent, it is not a "natural death" nor "average lifespan either"....

So, I would not say thats a fair comparison...

We measure "dog years" because they age in theircvery consistent manner...

But people like to assign human characteristics to animals, it helps us to identify, and catalog other things... What do we know better than ourselves?

IF a mayfly could be, aware, as we understand it, it would wonder why we never seem to die... Thousands of generations would land on us, write their graffiti, for future generations of course, lol, and die...

"TIME" is almost always percieved differently...

When you remove "TIME", and look at how things are, (time wise and just for the sake of discussion in this thread, being as mayflies are not "aware" as we are, so much as we can tell.. lol)

With no "TIME" involved:

We are eternal to a mayfly...

We are eternal to our pets...

Mountains are eternal to us...

So could be a creator... Nothing actually eternal, only by the understandings of our mind...



I hope that makes sense, I got interrupted and, I'm on my phone... lol... Makes things disjointed at times.... (not to mention my thought processes, hahaha)

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Why would a creator have to be faster than us?

[/quote]From: http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/onlinestuff/snot/whats_the_oldest-living_animal_and_how_old_does_it_get.aspx

So why do they live so long, then? No-one knows for sure, but there are a few general patterns that give us clues. Size, for example, seems to be important. In general, the larger an animal is, the longer it lives. This helps to explain why giant whales and tortoises can live for over a century, while tiny mammals like shrews get less than three years, and tiny insects like mayflies less than a day.[/quote]

So, if we are but a bit in a builders set, there is the possibility that he is humongous...

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The world was created in 6 days...

Well, since humans didn't exist, the "creator" must have told someone this was the case... Why would he have said it in "our" days, instead of his own?

Shoot, even if I build something, it takes me longer to plan it, than implement it...

Lol....

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As you said, moot point, becausecs dog or mayfly cannot answer our questions either...

And, lol, I don't believe in a creator...

But, these are just my thoughts in arriving to my current point....

I believe in, "something", a "force" like the talk about in Star Wars....

Hahaha....

Jestor wrote:

ren wrote: creation is the view that our world must have been created. And that the being that created it himself did not need to have been created. Such a being is therefore beyond time and space... And has no "workshop" and doesnt take any kind of time (days or years) to create anything.

Well, that sounds flawed... lol...

I could see where it would obviously mean the this is created by something, but to say that, that something wasn't created seems to be reaching, lol, never mind the workshop bit...

Interesting...

I think this is the only part of creation that makes any sense.
It's the belief that something which cannot possibly be like us is in fact a lot like us which makes no sense.
I myself can create a "being" of sorts, and control its time and its space... remove evidence of it ever existing and re-creating it out of "thin air".

ren wrote: creation is the view that our world must have been created. And that the being that created it himself did not need to have been created. Such a being is therefore beyond time and space... And has no "workshop" and doesnt take any kind of time (days or years) to create anything.

by itself: a simply harmless thought . . couldn't hurt a fly or rock

*****

"no workshop" equal to "no time"

another simply harmless thought