Attention council members (suggestions from those you lead)

Neaj Pa Bol wrote: One thing I would like to address for the moment is this.

Please do not think that this is not seriously being discussed nor will the answers to each question be done in 24 hours. I, like others, have full-time jobs, Management such as mine, etc, IRL, as to where I will not spam out an answer to anyone without being serious minded or sincere in a response. I ask that, yes, reply or give thoughts but patience is not being applied either. This can not and should not be looked at as an overnight address...

Let’s show some patience as Jedi should be to answer things....

This is good to know. It's much easier to have patience, for me at least, when I know that something is being addressed. As someone with no access to the upper forums, this is the only place I had any idea these concerns were being discussed. Maybe this goes along with transparency conversation; it would have been good to have some kind of official "this has been seen and is on our agenda, thank you" sort of thing.

Simple answer, we have given many members opportunities to be involved...none of them are here any longer...those of us on the council and holding offices are the few that have managed to stay around...we may or may not be as active in the forums as those with less responsibility, but we are always watching things...I have been here 12 years myself...only 2 other active members have been here longer (maybe 3)...everything being brought up now, has been brought up before and tried before and failed before.

This was a great answer. In many cases, just hearing "we tried that" is very valuable for the people being led.

If I may, let's put it into the same terms as a regular job.

Although many jobs can be done by monkeys, many other jobs require special skills or knowledge. Part of the requirements should be loyalty to the Temple. How many months has this person been here? Have they served in other capacities before? Is there a track record?

Perhaps, somewhat of a middle ground could be that every central position is made by appointment and then that person has to list open spots where anyone can then serve in that department in the capacity of the job/volunteer posting. That person then gets credit for each month in that job and therefore the supervising central position can issue a recommendation/nomination for that person to be considered for a future appointment.

Strong organizations are hierarchies. If the pathway to the top is too easy/quick then the organization, as a whole, will be diluted to the point of nonexistence.

In the United States, every new administration (potentially every 4 years) looks at each appointed position and often times keeps the person in charge but can replace that person with a new appointment. The new appointment can open those dept positions back up or evaluate people for a time before deciding to keep them.

The council is like an administration. While it is natural for those in a position of ultimate responsibility to accept some blame, less blame will go around as long as everyone agrees on the system itself (like the US constitution). It's not just a statement who we are but how we run things. And every healthy system needs checks and balances.

I think Initiates should have jobs and/or tasks they can do and I'm very interested in what the Service Corp can do in this regard. But if the initiates have things they can do in order to prove themselves, then it would become a much easier decision when it comes to appointments and who can take on more. With that said, I see things getting better and that progress is all that matters as Rome wasn't built in a day.

So I think the answer to this question is that there must be quality over quantity. Our main focus has been on advancing Jedi knowledge, wisdom, and understanding; the mind of a Jedi. The heart of a Jedi is something everyone must find within. At the same time, I think the might of a Jedi, found in service, is something we should start to solidify and cultivate. And THEN we can create an organizational pathway to higher levels of service that will be fair and keep more people engaged without the same revolving door.

This post was addressed to the Council, and I assume it was posted here so that the people who contributed to it would see and know that their concerns have been taken to the Council by Zero as he said he would. I'm confused as to why individual Councilors are addressing the concerns already, instead of us hearing from the Council as a whole. I would have thought the process would be more

-- Response 1: "Hi, I'm on the Council. I see this post. I'll bring it to the attention of the rest of the Council. Please be patient. Thank you."
-- Response 2 (eventually, when appropriate): "Hi, I'm a Councilor speaking on behalf of the Council. This post is now on our agenda. Thank you to all who contributed ideas for consideration. We will keep you updated. Please be patient with the process as we are all volunteers with busy lives."

If these comments and concerns and questions from Councilors are on behalf of the Council, it would be beneficial to know that. Something like "The Council is talking about xyz and we'd like further input. Here are our concerns and thoughts thus far. Please let us know what you think so we can consider the thoughts of temple members in our deliberations." If that isn't the case, if this is individuals speaking without the official backing of the body of the Council, then I think that should be made clear as well. Right now it feels like it could go either way and it's confusing to me. It's creating the cyclic and unproductive back and forth that's already been brought up as a known issue.

Regarding blame: it does stink that leaders are generally left holding the blame for things that go wrong. This seems to be the case in most any organization. It can't feel nice, and I wish the Council didn't experience it. On the other hand, it can't be taken personally and it can't be held on to. It's an unfortunate pitfall of being in a leadership position among humans and bitterness around it doesn't serve anyone. The idea of blame as it's been mentioned in this thread seems to have the weight of bitterness behind it. I hope there's a way we as a temple can move on from that.

RyuJin wrote: In most organizations you don't have people quit shortly after taking office without even training someone to fill in for them...most of the folks we have allowed to take on some of these other offices discover how much time is needed to really commit or that they're way over their heads and they bail on us, leaving us to try and piece together what they were trying to do, then to fill the position again...those of us with multiple offices have them, not as some sort of greedy/selfish power grab, but as a substitute figure head until someone capable and willing comes along that won't run off the moment things get really tough and the hate mail messages start flying in....that all said, longevity is preferred because it shows true commitment...any idea how many thousands we have seen over the years that have come storming in all excited, rush through their training, then start making demands before eventually burning out and blaming us?

Unfortunately, I can imagine. And this answer makes perfect sense. I think people need positions in which they can serve but if they're new or even older initiates, they shouldn't be "head of ____". But being on a team? Yes, that can be mutually beneficial. They can contribute a talent, knowledge, or skill, without being overwhelmed by any burden of being responsible for a whole dept. I also see this improving and hopefully, with a new newsletter, others will see it as well

I do think that "practicing" one's religion is important because it makes it more real to the person. Personal practice is great and is the cornerstone of Jediism. But I also think that if we can develop some additional corporate practices that showcase how we work in teams, how we can go out and do "missions", and serve in different capacities, I think we'll see that people need that too. And that it fulfills a need to feel more a part of something greater. And that will make some people stick around longer and that support for people actually appointed may help them stay longer too because they can delegate tasks more.

Delegation is key but you also have to trust the people you're delegating to.

Br. John wrote: Who has been gone for months and is still showing as holding a position? I'll update the FAQ and set their status as Inactive.

If I'm forgetting an open position let me know. We need a System Administrator. Ren works too many hours at his paying job and does not have time to repair the site. We need someone who can work with a Linux Server and Joomla. It would be great if such an one is a member.

I would like to be on the Web team in an assistant position to Ren. If we get 2 or 3 such assistants we can track a central queue of website issues and each person can tackle one until completion.

ZealotX wrote:

Br. John wrote: Who has been gone for months and is still showing as holding a position? I'll update the FAQ and set their status as Inactive.

If I'm forgetting an open position let me know. We need a System Administrator. Ren works too many hours at his paying job and does not have time to repair the site. We need someone who can work with a Linux Server and Joomla. It would be great if such an one is a member.

I would like to be on the Web team in an assistant position to Ren. If we get 2 or 3 such assistants we can track a central queue of website issues and each person can tackle one until completion.

What is your experience with Linux web servers and with Joomla?

Br. John wrote: Who has been gone for months and is still showing as holding a position? I'll update the FAQ and set their status as Inactive.

If I'm forgetting an open position let me know. We need a System Administrator. Ren works too many hours at his paying job and does not have time to repair the site. We need someone who can work with a Linux Server and Joomla. It would be great if such an one is a member.

I should have said in this post that I will answer each question separately. I'll deal with them one at a time. The first issue is about persons still listed as holding positions when they have not been here for some time, and about open positions. Nobody has responded about positions held by absent persons. You're welcome to PM me if you don't want to post about that.

We have asked one Knight about being System Administrator (and fixing the site) and one member has volunteered to be an assistant.

4. Almost everyone has mentioned either knight Edan or Master Rosalyn as being very deserving of some form of official recognition for all of their amazing work they do.

Thank you very much for the comments. However I would like to say that every member of Council is an active participant. Ros' and my work is visible by its nature, but there is nobody serving on Council right now who is not working. We are always in contact with each other, always aware of what is going on, nothing goes by without the notice of all of us. When I posted recently that anyone can come to any Councillor for support I meant it, we are all available.

Is there a list of open positions anywhere? A link would be awesome if there is; I'm not finding it.

And if there's not, could there be?

It's tough to consider volunteering when I don't know what's needed.

There will be, we are putting one together and we'll advertise as soon as we have a complete list

I have been here for some time and watched as people who tried to move forward on projects lost drive because they felt they had no support from their peers- or from the council over the years.

They’d either get told (in a round about way) that their work wasn’t worth pursuing by people in power. I happen to be stubborn, so those calls didn’t dissuade me from the project that I never heard what the results were (updating the Doctrine). While it would be simple to write it off as “Alethea is a bit of a nuisance, the fact of the matter is I heard these stories long before I tried any projects here.

Patience certainly is an aspect of the Jedi Path, but there are points where you have to cut your losses because it seems no one will move. And that’s where the damage comes in for so many. Again, I’m not talking about my circumstances but of the others I e witnessed, and I didn’t contribute to the initial survey.

I can’t say what you do (or don’t do) when it comes to counseling candidates & TMs on how people can improve to get their knighthood- I haven’t hit that point yet. But I can say that in the military it’s a common practice for a candidate of anything to be told how they can improve for the next review- things they need to work on in order to get there. IF this isn’t in practice, perhaps it’s something that should become practice, so candidates don’t feel like they are getting a run around waiting on things to happen?

RyuJin, I understand the “it’s all been done before” argument. And I get that so many people have been upset over things implemented. But let me put a different question forward for the whole council: What values do you wish for TotJO to have and how can those be achieved?

You see, I’ve been listening to a book that talks about getting a church moving forward (it’s by the ,founder of an organization that helps get churches unstuck and growing again, and their formula has been working wonders in these organizations) and the author said something that really struck a chord with me (paraphrased): You can’t make your church a People-Pleasing Church, you should stand by your organizational ethics & values. By sticking by them, the members of the congregation that really value what your church will start to align with them or find they have other needs that can be fulfilled elsewhere.

In short, I feel the council should have a heart-to-heart about what things you want to see in this group. What kind of growth? What kind of transparency? What ethics you believe should be leading the organization. And once you have that- build on tactics for how you can see that happen- and how you’ll hold leadership accountable for their team role in these strategies.

It doesn’t mean killing projects already in place-as an example, the weekly work m on the Discord seems to be doing a lot of good community building.

Thank you, Zero, for realizing that there were concerns and questions happening for people who had no clear or comfortable way of conveying them to the Council. And thank you for having the compassion and courage to volunteer to be that conduit to the Council. This thread has made me realize how vital a service that really was. I appreciate you.

Your welcome river, though if I’m being honest I wish I had locked this thread as read only imeadatly after posting it. My intent was never for this to be a council bash session, nor was it intended to be a way to make council explain themselves. The intent was to let council know what the lower ranking temple members needed from them. As I said in my initial post, the things I listed were not a “honey do” list for council. Council can choose to adress the issues or choose not too. No matter how it gets sliced, they are the governing body, and what they say goes. The flip side of that coin is that no leader will be successful if they are blind to the needs and concerns of those they lead.

It does my heart well to see that some small changes have come from this thread, and If nothing else comes from it, small changes are proof positive that your voices have been heard.

We just wanna let ya'll know that we are considering all of the concerns/questions brought forward


And...we are working on them


Standby to standby

While this is an old thread and many of the concerns originally raised have long been resolved and replaced with new issues as the wheel of time turns on, there is one concern which seems to still be present from what I can see (and it's worth noting that as a novice, there are things I can't see, so perhaps it is addressed elsewhere such as the Knight's chambers). This concern is that it is difficult for those wanting to contribute to the Temple to know what needs there currently are. I know for apprentices joining the IP Team is an obvious one (not sure if that's open to initiates or not), and I think I saw somewhere that there's a welcome committee or intake committee of some sort that is often filled by initiates. Beyond that the only way to know a role is needed is to spot the word "vacant" next to a role listed in the FAQs, but those are mostly just the leadership positions (ones that would be filled specifically by knights or clergy members, or at least someone who had been filling a related junior role for a while and shown they were ready to take on that leadership role regardless of rank). There are also threads within this Projects and Committees forum that list specific roles needed, but there's no upkeep on them to indicate if they are still something needed in 2023 (though I imagine it's safe to assume the sticky from 16 years ago is a bit outdated at this point). Even scrolling through the threads in this forum it's mostly just a list of projects that people wanted to start at one point or old discussions about forming committees. In short:

I can't seem to find a list of current roles needing to be filled that one can volunteer for (be it committees, assistants to heads of different "departments", or leadership roles that are either currently vacant or currently held by someone wearing many hats that would be happy to pass one of those hats off).

In many of the online communities I've seen where there is an organizational structure and volunteer roles needing to be filled, there is a thread somewhere, with the first post in that thread being regularly updated with current roles needed, who to contact to apply, and qualifications for the role. Often that thread is locked and anyone needing to get changes made to open positions within their "department" would just message the person in charge of that thread, and perhaps post additional info in a separate thread within that forum giving more details, though in some cases department heads would be invited to also post replies to that topic with additional information. There could also be specific posts following it for people at different levels (apprentice, knight, clergy) looking to find a role fitting their position within the temple as well as a post highlighting the high priority roles that really need to be filled and that people should consider first.

It seems like this could be really useful here in the Temple. It, ironically, might require adding an additional role that needs to be filled by someone to maintain it, and unfortunately that person might need to be higher up in the temple's chain of command so as to be privy to what needs there really are as well as what projects are going on, but it may also be a role that someone lower in the ranks could fill with a point of contact on the council or something who then shoots them a message saying, "Good afternoon, Can you add ____ to the current open roles? It needs to be filled by a knight, but can have assistants from any rank. Message _____ for more info or to apply. Thank you!" and then the coordinator updates the post accordingly.

It might also be good to have someone go through and clean up old stickies as I noticed (at least in the Projects and Committees forum) that a lot of them seem to be out of date (they might all be outdated in this forum, actually).

I know that for those below knight the primary role is to learn and the knights are expected to give back, but taking on some junior roles within the temple is part of that learning process (as I think some knights who require their apprentices to be part of the IP Team have already observed). Those junior roles also develop the skills and understanding of the inner workings of the temple necessary for them to later step into the leadership roles (plus it's easy to sign up as an assistant to someone, it's hard to sign up as the head of something, assistant is a lot less intimidating, and transitioning from assistant to head is a lot less daunting as well, so it might make it easier to get more volunteers if the other roles beyond just the leadership positions listed in the FAQs were easier to find and apply for). Getting involved in committees or projects, or serving as assistants/coordinators or in leadership roles is also a great way make people feel vested in the success of the temple and a part of the community, which will make them dive deeper into their Jedi studies as well (so long as their roles don't cannibalize too much of their time so they no longer have room for the studies of course).

Speaking for myself, as someone who is hopefully going to be an apprentice soon, I'm wondering what roles are needed from an apprentice, or even initiate or novice. How can I do my part for the Temple? Other than the IP Team when I become an apprentice, I'm not really sure what is needed.

Just food for thought. I'm not really looking for a reply to this so much as just sharing feedback.

Hello Cornilion.

Once your journal has been reviewed and you are promoted to Initiate, you can send Rini and I a message to discuss joining the IP Team.

The Welcoming team is also Rini and I as well as a couple of the other moderators. We are good on that for now. 

I am reviewing old posts on the forum right this moment and will move old or outdated ones. If you have concerns or questions, as a soon to be Initiate, i would suggest talking with the IP Crew or Mods before reaching out to Council as they are very busy and a lot of the topics you are bringing up have been discussed before. 

I wasn't so much trying to direct that to the council specifically so much as follow up on a theme already raised in this thread. My main point was asking if there is a place that lists all the current roles that the Temple is needing help in so that those wanting to help out know what to volunteer for (and who to reach out to in order to do so)? If not, then my main point is suggesting that it be useful to have that.

Maybe that would be better placed in a separate thread. I landed here because the Projects and Committees forum seemed like the place where such a list would most likely reside.

In any event, yes, I will reach to you once I become an initiate to see where I can be of service.