The Charlottesville debate - or a lack of it

Karl Popper describes a phenomena he refers to as the Paradox of Tolerance. In brief, it states that if a society is tolerant without limit, that tolerance will be seized or destroyed by the intolerant. The paradox begins by suggesting that intolerance must not be tolerated. It must be opposed. Likewise, an ideology which advocates racial superiority and genocide must be opposed. All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. So, in answer to the evil that our grandfathers gave their lives to fight, there must be a stand.

The political othering at play in modern politics needs to stop, as it only stands to divide the people, to push them to further ideological extremes, and to create a gulf wherein rational discussion and common ground is lost.

The problem of Nazism being a left or right wing issue is a pointless division. National socialism was anti-liberal and pronational, though Hitler himself hated both the left and right wing with equal vigor. But the left and right argument is fruitless, when this is an issue of an evil so pronounced that it became ingrained in our culture as the ultimate evil; plenty of film villains are German, or have parallels drawn between them and Nazism for this very reason.

This shouldn't be an argument about left against right, liberals against conservatives, but against a political ideology that goes against not only human decency, but against the very rights, freedoms and values that America holds dear.

And it is a very revealing moment for the Jedi, where their minimal responses to last weekends' events have pussyfooted around the issue and not said anything of worth or integrity in response. (Except for the KOA's post about escaping civil unrest. That was tops.)


 https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/toleration/#ConTolPar

Here's my position:

Nazis are bad.

Yea, there really is no debate here. Nazis are bad. End of sentence.
There's no "but freedom of speech" there's just a punch in the face for Nazis and their sympathizers.

Nazism is obviously bad, I think most people have deciphered this. But the issue here is that politically, as of right now, in the United States there is a lack of mutual respect among political parties, and that this divide will only cause more division in the future. A neutral ambassador should take information and opinions gathered from the masses on each political side, and proceed to tell the public of both the norms and extremes of both parties, which could not only clear up misconceptions, but it could also gather the mutual respect that was held prior to the more recent years.

So, here's a funny thing:

Jedi do not believe in moral relativism. Even though it is often argued by people that we do believe in moral relativism. We obviously don't. At least, not as a group.

I didn't even know, consciously, that I wasn't a morally ambiguous person.

I know what my morality is: If you use your hate speech to destroy groups of people emotionally or physically, I will punch you. And, punching isn't just physically. I will donate to groups against you, protest against you, and shout as loud as I can until you're gone.

Yup. If I ever see a moral relativity argument used in Jediism again, I'll point back to this event in time.

I know bad when I see it. And, Nazis and Neo-Nazis are bad.

what we call Nazism has nothing to do with socialism, what [strike]we[/strike] you call liberal has nothing to do with liberalism. Make no mistake the english-speaking world's liberals are the exact same intolerant beast.

Actual nazis are bad, but the regressive left calls everyone who is right of themselves nazis. So when they say its ok to punch a nazi in the face, they dont just mean actual nazis, they mean people like me who arent buying into their safe spaces and "only whites can be racist and all whites are racist" nonsense

ISIS makes sex slaves out of children and tosses gays off of the tops of buildings but if you point that out youre an islamophohe and a nazi

Antifa and SJWs are the leftist version of White Nationalists and KKK

I agree with the point about ideologues dividing us and no one listening or respecting the other side. Extremists on the right and on the left seem to be running he show, but id suggest policing your own side before expecting the other side to defer

Lol. I'm a proud antifascist and anarchist.

And I'm getting sick and tired of people criticizing Antifa and painting them as the bad guys in some way.

Also, I don't think all right-wingers are Nazis. I think Nazis are Nazis.

People weilding clubs and wearing masks are definitely NOT the good guys

OB1Shinobi wrote: ISIS makes sex slaves out of children and tosses gays off of the tops of buildings but if you point that out youre an islamophohe and a nazi

If you cared to consider the reaction from others, nobody defends IS/Daesh, especially in cases like this.

I've also seen white supremacist groups supporting the Chechen purge of gays and how Daesh treats them.

Also, Ren, in what ways are American/Western liberals comparable to Nazism?

I want to make sure people dont go too far in making assumptions about my position: i am opposed to ALL people who consider violence to be an acceptable response to differences in ideology, and to all people who believe in racial superiority. Thats antifa most definitely, and also the alt right.

Its not ok to punch a nazi in the face, any more than its ok for a nazi to punch you in the face. Keep your hands to yourself or go to jail. Violence is only acceptable in self defense from direct attack. Thats the law. The AMERICAN law. Its smarter than you are, and you dont have any more right to break it than anyone else.

Nazi symbolism, by its very nature, perpetuates violence.

Nah, punching Nazis is definitely okay. It's preemptive self defense. Proactive self defense.

And yes, I know that sounds ridiculous.

Fair enough steam, but if a person is standing there with a flag, not being violent, and you bash his skull, or punch him in the face, who perpetuated the violence?

The law applies to the nazi as much as to you or me. If he commits violence then i would enjoy helping to apprehend him. But our justice system, one of the things it gets right is that you cant punish someone for a crime they havent committed yet.

Being a Nazi should BE a crime. It is in Germany.

Williamkaede wrote:
And it is a very revealing moment for the Jedi, where their minimal responses to last weekends' events have pussyfooted around the issue and not said anything of worth or integrity in response. (Except for the KOA's post about escaping civil unrest. That was tops.)


 https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/toleration/#ConTolPar

Turns out I've been anything but silent. But I'm talking about it in places where I feel it's needed; not here preaching to the (assumed) choir

Lykeios wrote: Nah, punching Nazis is definitely okay. It's preemptive self defense. Proactive self defense.

And yes, I know that sounds ridiculous.

It sounded pretty dumb when W used it as excuse to invade Iraq and Afganistan.

That's what it what that group used it for but I think most symbols are made by their choosers . The swastika resembles the violent change sometimes ... Some times the storm ... Some cultures used it as the beginning of power . Not fair to say one symbol cuz of what we say bad chooses ... Symbols are tools as well as identifications . It's all in what context and light . The "nazi symbol " was for hate ... All that , the swastica is a symbol. Right ?

Totally different.

There was no evidence they had WMDs or whatever you call them. (Or at least the "evidence" was falsified evidence...)

There IS evidence that Nazis are violent, dangerous jerks. (Jerk being the NICEST word I could possibly use...)