Perception, confirmation bias, and listening to opposing views.

Based on several conversations that have gone on over the course of the last week and a half or so I decided to make this to speak on my own experiences and how I see things. The first thing we have to realize is that when dealing with large groups of people lumping the entire groups as complicit in this that or the third is not only patently false but unfair and not going to get us listened to. Coming at people accusing them of things will not get you heard. I do not care how just you think your cause is you will not be listened to. It's that simple. Start from anger and it's going to be reflected back. No one that feels attacked from the get go is going to feel like hearing you out.

Further, as I said lumping all people of a particular group as guilty of this that or the third is patently unfair and false. I will not go on to provide examples from my own life.

As a gay man, I could with some degree of truth blame all people of Christian or Abrahamic faiths for the persecution of LGBT people. I could say they are all complicit in my "oppression". Except where would that leave me with Rosalyn J? I know for a fact she has no issue with LGBT people. I am willing to bet she has never done a thing in her life to harm, hurt, oppress or in any other way negatively impact people of the LGBT community. So how fair would it be for me to come at her and blame her for actions she never committed? Things she never advocated for? Things she likely finds vile and would upset her if she saw them happen?

As a white boy growing up in the ghetto I was jumped for my skin color. I was mugged more than once because the short skinny white boy is an easy mark. I was on the receiving end of racially based insults. Should I blame all black people for that? Well if I did it would sure make my relationship with my brother in law kind of awkward especially as he has come to my defense more than once.

As a person who has had one unpleasant run-in with the cops, I could blame them for brutality and look at things with a biased eye. Except that would cause me to have to ignore my own training on what is and is not a justified use of force and blame my Uncle for taking part in things that he really had no hand in. Heck, when I was biased I ignorantly assumed Karn( I believe it was him) a police officer that is a Knight here was lying about his pay. Why because I assumed cops lie to be bigger victims than they really are. I was wrong and looked foolish as a result.

The fact is that if I assumed things I looked for examples and ignored reality when it presented itself. Now maybe not all people do this but it is something we need to watch out for. If we look at a situation that says cop shoots unarmed man we tend to ignore other factors that play into the situation. It is also a big deal that many people come at situations not just biased but from a place of ignorance. What I mean is that they lack knowledge about a particular issue or fail to understand the views of the "other side" and they might be held. Again I will use examples from my own life.

In the case of police after my bad encounter and some public statements from police officials about gun control that I did not like I started to become very critical of them. This caused me to look at sites like cop block and believe every video they posted as unfair and pure examples of why cops as a whole are bad. The more I watched the deeper my bias got. However, I was ignoring my training. I was ignoring reality. Once I joined this Temple and made a fool of myself with Jedi Knight Karn I was forced to sit down and realize how biased I was. This caused me to look at things from a less biased light and soften my view.

When I came here I was a hardcore conservative. I looked at liberals and money grubbing thieves that did not have any personal responsibility. This Temple, again and again, forced me to play nice and time and again I was exposed to ideas I did not like or believe in. Due to Temple rules, I was bound by my own word to speak nicely or not at all. This exposure made me realize that people had a point. Even when I did not agree with them I at least understood how and why they might feel a particular way. In short exposure to outside ideas, even ones that opposed very deeply held views of mine softened my own mind and made me open to understanding.

So shutting down speech that we don't like even if it angers us and comes off as ignorant does no good. Hearing only things that make us feel good or agree with does nothing for our growth or understanding, All it will do is deepen biases and leave us ignorant of the reasoning the other side might have. Which can only lead to divides that do nothing but cause harm.

I have personally come to the conclusion that labeling anyone in any group of minority for purposes other then identification is going to end badly. Yeah I may label someone as black, asian, gay, or any other label you want to throw out there in such a long list of labels. I do this out of what that person may choose to be identified as. I'm all for that.

However, I will treat every person in any category or label you want to throw on it as a human being. We are all human beings and we should treat each other as human beings, irregardless of what you want to label them as or what label they want to go by.

The only time where any of that even remotely matters to me is when it comes down to what biology you have exactly because as a (hopefully soon to be paramedic testing this thursday) person who will come running when you call for help on the ambulance, some treatments/plans can either help or harm you if I don't know exactly what you are.

Outside of that you are a human being. We should treat each other as such.

Sometimes that means understanding that any topic and I mean ANY TOPIC, could have someone who doesn't know much about it. Maybe it's a topic about biology and that's something you know a considerable amount of and when they ask about it you probably won't get offended by it. Even if they have it all wrong, so why do we put such a big issue on the minority groups we get assigned to?

We can only really blame each other, the lack of education, lack of understanding, and social media to get a false sense of community. We see a video on youtube of someone getting harassed or a crowd of people chanting this or that and we think that must be everyone of that minority who believes that, and that's not even remotely the case. We jump to assumptions and conclusions based on such small pieces of information without spending the time and energy to investigate or explore further, to seek out perspectives on both sides of any fence. We put more faith in news then we do in actual research, or even each other.

As Jedi in training any one of us should eventually seek to understand the basic concepts of perspective, respect, and understanding that each person is a sum of everything they have grown up with in their lives, some deprived of a lot of experiences as others in so many different area's. I wish this was actually one of the very first things taught here if I had a choice. Even reminded of on some kind of basis as everyone of any rank and title here can fall prey to not remembering these concepts.

We ALL have a long way to go, but it starts by stopping the judgement's right now. It's amazing how easily we can look at someone and the sum of their posts here, even in their journals and think we know them and how they came up and their lifestyle choices only to be completely wrong, because not everyone divulges their entire livelihood here. Thus its only logical that we need to assume we don't know anything about anyone, only about what we know and sharing what we know based on our own perspectives, and be open-minded about anyone else's perspectives so that we can work together to come to our conclusions as a community, and continue to seek new members who bring new perspectives into the same discussion. Or even research outside the temple and bring back that information.

This should be a place of learning for all shapes and sizes and ages, a place for sharing and educating appropriately, and not a place where we judge each other at all. We should be able to call each other out when we have gone too far, or strayed from the path, without fear of being retributive results, and be willing to take a step back and look at ourselves and what we have said when it is ourselves that have been called out on.

We come here as a community to grow together, not rip each others leaves off, or tear our branches down.

Based on several conversations that have gone on over the course of the last week and a half or so I decided to make this to speak on my own experiences and how I see things. The first thing we have to realize is that when dealing with large groups of people lumping the entire groups as complicit in this that or the third is not only patently false but unfair and not going to get us listened to. Coming at people accusing them of things will not get you heard. I do not care how just you think your cause is you will not be listened to. It's that simple. Start from anger and it's going to be reflected back. No one that feels attacked from the get go is going to feel like hearing you out.

The above seems like a great space to come from. However, there is something patently wrong with that argument. We have forgotten whether the person who is attacking feels attacked themselves. The feeling of attack comes from the language we use to discuss the issue.

Below there is strong language which could potentially offend, activate or cause considerable stress, but is intended to demonstrate a point and has come from my own life experience



In each of these instances, there is strong, offensive language directly pointed at: individuals who are gay, individuals who are black, individuals who are disabled.

Now, suppose that sort of language went on for hours and hours and I happened to be in earshot. I listen, but I don't say anything for a while, but I am shocked that as a person who identifies with the groups, that no one has asked my opinion. There is a break in the conversation and I pick up some courage and insert myself:

Strong, potentially offensive language



You'll forgive me if I get a little angry after being dismissed. And I think what sets me off personally is that this is my family, these are my friends. They never asked me, "hey what's it like being black?" Or "what's it like being queer (surprise for those of you who didn't know ) Or what's it like being disabled?" So they don't know that every time I hear those words (or words like them), I shrink a little into myself. I put up a wall. Every time those words, or words like those are spoken, I feel tremendous pain and belittling.

I go out into the world and hear similar sentiments from strangers. What they say to me, it stings, but they don't have a bearing on my life. I'm not connected with them in anyway. If I make a request and they listen, maybe we can open up a wider dialogue about why their language was so troubling, they could rephrase the issue and we can start a dialogue. Hey, look! Education. I help them share in my experience, they help me share in theirs.

Its important because the way they talk about topics concerning groups I am a part of influences laws, elections and other aspects of society in which the opinion of the public is considered. I can help to refine their view by sharing my experience and they can then make more informed choices.

But if I make a request of them and they don't listen, but continue talking, I can walk away. It isn't such a big deal.

If, however, the language occurs in a space that I value, that has connections for me: my workplace, my home, my Temple, I place a greater value on the connections and so I might spend a bit more time trying to get my point across. But with every deflection, I feel less and less heard, I shout a little louder. I value my connections, but I am also in pain. I am asking you to listen to me.

...

Ah, now you will listen, but it has to be on your terms. I have to be completely calm and reasonable while you dissect my responses. I can't be angry at all. Not allowed. Otherwise I won't be heard. And I am not just talking to one person. Everybody is around me at a table (I have had this experience too) and it feels like me against the world. Their motives may be pure, but there are so many of them, their eyes all trained on me. So now, not only am I in pain, I'm also on edge. You know what it feels like? Like being an animal in a cage with all these gawkers around. I'm on display. The exotic Rosalyn will now share her experience. I don't like that feeling either. I much prefer a space where I feel on equal footing. It's not that I am not capable of having discussions, but right now, it would do wonders for me, and for the educational opportunity if we simply had this conversation one on one.

You don't have to do anything. I am asking you to make a sacrifice.

You say to me "speak softly and we will hear you". But why am I being called to adjust? I, the one in pain, have to put that aside? I wasn't angry before you basically said I was making a big deal out of nothing, now I am angry. Maybe you should have not made assumptions about my feelings of offense. You don't have anything to lose by looking at my pain.

You say to me "speak softly". I say to you "Listen intently. Listen and believe me".

Ros I would ask yourself why it is you get so offended and why it is you get so angry and frustrated about such things. In my limited experience personally I find the more I try and understand my frustrations and why the less and less they frustrate me until they don't anymore. Though that's me your results may differ.

The other point I will make is you make yourself out as if you feel your the only victim, or hopefully just a victim in general. There are more of us out here then we probably realize that has been at that same or similar table. I however don't feel it's right to ever compare ones feelings in measurement to another's in terms of who was hurt more or more badly for a large variety of reasons. But I would be surprised if someone here at this temple has not gone through what they individually believe they feel is a similar situation at some point in their lives.

As far as speaking quietly, it's not about forcing anyone to speak quietly, as much as it is coming together as a group, as a temple, and choosing to agree to speak on equal terms if we can. The preferred way I think being softly. It's never going to be perfect, but none of us will ever be perfect, doesn't mean we can't try.

Rosalyn J wrote:

The above seems like a great space to come from. However, there is something patently wrong with that argument. We have forgotten whether the person who is attacking feels attacked themselves. The feeling of attack comes from the language we use to discuss the issue.

You say to me "speak softly". I say to you "Listen intently. Listen and believe me".

You have fair points. However, lets look at it from the examples we have both given you might feel as a person of color (is that your preferred term?) that I as a white male am privileged in ways you are not. Which may or may not be true depending on how we view the terms etc. But let's roll with this concept. So you bring this up and you yourself feel attacked/marginalized because of this. However, I flip around and say well I feel attacked by your words because not only are you ignoring my potential hardships( in my eyes) but you are Christian and I am gay and that means YOU have more privilege. Do we see the impasse here? We both have apparently reasonable causes to feel marginalized or voiceless but unless one of us is willing to come at this calmly we get nowhere. Basically, we can both demand the other walk on eggshells all day long and that just leads to people feeling uncomfortable and unable to speak plainly without getting their heads bit off. My view of it is that if we start applying Halons Razor (well a modified version) "never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance" we would both be better off. Yes, the language might get bumpy and our pride/feelings might get hurt but at least in my eyes we have a better chance of making headway.

I more than understand that it gets hard to hear in your own home. I also more than get how it can be tiresome to explain things over and over again to seemingly get nowhere or to seemingly be ignored. However, its important to realize that not everyone is going to agree that this or that kind of language is offensive. I mean frankly, I sometimes find the threads that call or insinuate white people are racist or oppressive here offensive. But I have left them alone because well I have learned to understand why some people might feel that way even if I think they are wrong.

Ah yeah Tellahane , the " Dont take things personally " argument , its soo convenient , untill we are spoken to ourselfes , its funny how that works , people yell at you for taking things personally and you try not to take personallly and then you make a remark about certain behaviour and before you know it you are the head persona in their drama and rant , meaning , its all good untill you question them. Nobody likes to be critisized , nobody likes to be discriminated ,and its very hard to take things not personal that affect larger minorities in our community.

And its not just that , the complete dissabilty to understand and their need to find peers that dont understand either makes it that you feel ambushed and bamboosled and you begin to wonder if its you. Well its is YOU and it is not.
Growing a thicker skin does not mean you cant feel people trying to hurt you , it means learning to deal with it and develop a healthy kind of indifference of people and ideas that try to damage you. And develop an understanding and educate yourself on the matters you dont understand , some of my greatest mistakes in my life was to just dismiss negative feelings and they only grew worse , educating myself and getting to know my own motives and put them under a microscope is teaching me a lot about the matters you speak of Tellahane , i consider what you say sort of dismissive towards people who are really hurt and damaged by what others say , but i do concurr that what others think should not mess up our lives.

Amyntas wrote: Ah yeah Tellahane , the " Dont take things personally " argument , its soo convenient , untill we are spoken to ourselfes , its funny how that works , people yell at you for taking things personally and you try not to take personallly and then you make a remark about certain behaviour and before you know it you are the head persona in their drama and rant , meaning , its all good untill you question them. Nobody likes to be critisized , nobody likes to be discriminated ,and its very hard to take things not personal that affect larger minorities in our community.

And its not just that , the complete dissabilty to understand and their need to find peers that dont understand either makes it that you feel ambushed and bamboosled and you begin to wonder if its you. Well its is YOU and it is not.
Growing a thicker skin does not mean you cant feel people trying to hurt you , it means learning to deal with it and develop a healthy kind of indifference of people and ideas that try to damage you. And develop an understanding and educate yourself on the matters you dont understand , some of my greatest mistakes in my life was to just dismiss negative feelings and they only grew worse , educating myself and getting to know my own motives and put them under a microscope is teaching me a lot about the matters you speak of Tellahane , i consider what you say sort of dismissive towards people who are really hurt and damaged by what others say , but i do concurr that what others think should not mess up our lives.

You make good points that it becomes harder to not take it personally when you feel it's YOU under the microscope or under attack. However, I will again use my own examples here; When I was very very antiChristian the problems I had with Christians were 99% my own and only 1% from the outside. I was looking for reasons to dislike Christians because I felt they were by their very belief system against me. But that is not true. Plenty if not most Christians are not against me or out to marginalize me. It was my own insecurities being reflected outward that caused me to look at the world this way. Now again this might not be true for everyone. I mean generally, not everyone is out to get you but sometimes people are and I understand that. But what I am saying is that more often than not in my own experience any "bad guy" I find tends to be a reflection of my own inner issues, not anything wrong with the person/s themselves.

Thank you for this Madhatter

But what I am saying is that more often than not in my own experience any "bad guy" I find tends to be a reflection of my own inner issues, not anything wrong with the person/s themselves.

This i wanted to say aswell but could not put into words

Amyntas wrote: Ah yeah Tellahane , the " Dont take things personally " argument , its soo convenient , untill we are spoken to ourselfes , its funny how that works , people yell at you for taking things personally and you try not to take personallly and then you make a remark about certain behaviour and before you know it you are the head persona in their drama and rant , meaning , its all good untill you question them. Nobody likes to be critisized , nobody likes to be discriminated ,and its very hard to take things not personal that affect larger minorities in our community.

And its not just that , the complete dissabilty to understand and their need to find peers that dont understand either makes it that you feel ambushed and bamboosled and you begin to wonder if its you. Well its is YOU and it is not.
Growing a thicker skin does not mean you cant feel people trying to hurt you , it means learning to deal with it and develop a healthy kind of indifference of people and ideas that try to damage you. And develop an understanding and educate yourself on the matters you dont understand , some of my greatest mistakes in my life was to just dismiss negative feelings and they only grew worse , educating myself and getting to know my own motives and put them under a microscope is teaching me a lot about the matters you speak of Tellahane , i consider what you say sort of dismissive towards people who are really hurt and damaged by what others say , but i do concurr that what others think should not mess up our lives.

Which is exactly why I disclaimers that your results may differ, I haven't had a situation in the last year where someone has come after me and I felt hurt, I focus on where they are coming from why they would come to that and I understand that their product and choices are based off where they are from and how they grew up and what they are dealing with daily. As well as things I likely don't see it know and even more likely won't. But as something I noted in my holocron, everyone always acts with the best of intentions, that intention may be pure it may not but ultimately it's always for themselves in some way or another, even if it's to feel pleasure by helping others it's always a selfish act to some degree. I don't know how exactly 100% but processing all that I just don't get bothered by it anymore by at least attempting to understand all of the above in each situation. It's working for me it may not work forever as you point out, but until I experience otherwise there's an equal potential for one side or the other equally.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't feel, just simply saying we shouldn't let all feelings decide our personal happiness. Emotion, yet peace.

One last thing before I go to bed. If I came off as dismissive or condescending to any views voiced here I want to state clearly this was not my intent. I am currently trying to figure out a balance between coming off as hearing a person but disagreeing and coming off as a jerk that just wants to argue. Which has the effect of sometimes making me sound like I am being pretentious or condescending. (Which is why I hate feeling the need to watch my language as I tend to be pretty blunt and crass in real life and thus I can feel unnatural when trying to be more refined) So I hope that is not the case here. I am trying to be more open and understanding while voicing why I am not fully on board with ideas/views and I hope that is coming through

MadHatter wrote: One last thing before I go to bed. If I came off as dismissive or condescending to any views voiced here I want to state clearly this was not my intent. I am currently trying to figure out a balance between coming off as hearing a person but disagreeing and coming off as a jerk that just wants to argue. Which has the effect of sometimes making me sound like I am being pretentious or condescending. (Which is why I hate feeling the need to watch my language as I tend to be pretty blunt and crass in real life and thus I can feel unnatural when trying to be more refined) So I hope that is not the case here. I am trying to be more open and understanding while voicing why I am not fully on board with ideas/views and I hope that is coming through

Don't worry , better a bit blunt and expressing your real thoughts than use flowery generic language that could or could not be wrong and lose the point , and you certainly dont come of as a jerk to me , we try to get an understanding here , sometimes we need a bit more tact sometimes we need to consider other peoples feelings and try to be more emphatic , but sometimes a blunt sword is all we can wield sleep well Jedi

Amyntas wrote:

MadHatter wrote: One last thing before I go to bed. If I came off as dismissive or condescending to any views voiced here I want to state clearly this was not my intent. I am currently trying to figure out a balance between coming off as hearing a person but disagreeing and coming off as a jerk that just wants to argue. Which has the effect of sometimes making me sound like I am being pretentious or condescending. (Which is why I hate feeling the need to watch my language as I tend to be pretty blunt and crass in real life and thus I can feel unnatural when trying to be more refined) So I hope that is not the case here. I am trying to be more open and understanding while voicing why I am not fully on board with ideas/views and I hope that is coming through

Don't worry , better a bit blunt and expressing your real thoughts than use flowery generic language that could or could not be wrong and lose the point , and you certainly dont come of as a jerk to me , we try to get an understanding here , sometimes we need a bit more tact sometimes we need to consider other peoples feelings and try to be more emphatic , but sometimes a blunt sword is all we can wield sleep well Jedi

If there is one thing I've learned over the years is never to tell anyone that something will work 100% or something is 100% this, or that. Because everyone's different, everyone has a different physiology, everyone has a different mental prowess as it were. I can suggest away on what might work for me, or for a number of people I've worked with or a giant crowd of people but there is never EVER a guarantee that something could be always right and work for any one individual. That might seem obvious to you or me but not everyone see's it that way, or may not see it that way yet. So I will always give a possibility that something I suggest may not work. It may or may not work for a large variety for reasons.

IF you want a really good example take a patient I had last year, having severe pain from a broken humoral head and clavical combo(read as severe shoulder injury). The paramedic I was with said he was going to take the pain away for sure, swore on it. Gave the maximum possible dose for pain medication we can give on the back of an ambulance, didn't even touch the pain. How well did the patient trust us after that for the rest of the call.....didn't trust us at all.

Same thing can be talked about for feelings as well. I Can't promise that meditation for example is going to fix everything but I know it has worked for some, I know it has worked for me, so there could be a good chance it will work for you so I will state it as such. Yeah the verbiage isn't what you are looking for we all wish we had the answer handed to us sometimes but the "fact"(or maybe better read the practicality) of life is everything "Could or Could not be" from any one person to the next.

Rosalyn J wrote:

Based on several conversations that have gone on over the course of the last week and a half or so I decided to make this to speak on my own experiences and how I see things. The first thing we have to realize is that when dealing with large groups of people lumping the entire groups as complicit in this that or the third is not only patently false but unfair and not going to get us listened to. Coming at people accusing them of things will not get you heard. I do not care how just you think your cause is you will not be listened to. It's that simple. Start from anger and it's going to be reflected back. No one that feels attacked from the get go is going to feel like hearing you out.

The above seems like a great space to come from. However, there is something patently wrong with that argument. We have forgotten whether the person who is attacking feels attacked themselves. The feeling of attack comes from the language we use to discuss the issue.

Below there is strong language which could potentially offend, activate or cause considerable stress, but is intended to demonstrate a point and has come from my own life experience

Warning: Spoiler!

-Once my sister in-law said of a NFL football player "He's so fine! Too bad he is a dick licker"
-My mother's girl-friend said to me, "I don't want you to get offended, but your brother just does nigger shit"
-Friends and family have said to me or around me "You are/She is retarded/delayed/deformed etc."

In each of these instances, there is strong, offensive language directly pointed at: individuals who are gay, individuals who are black, individuals who are disabled.

Now, suppose that sort of language went on for hours and hours and I happened to be in earshot. I listen, but I don't say anything for a while, but I am shocked that as a person who identifies with the groups, that no one has asked my opinion. There is a break in the conversation and I pick up some courage and insert myself:

Strong, potentially offensive language

Warning: Spoiler!

To my mother's girlfriend I say, "You can't say that! How the fuck do you think that makes me feel! My brother is NOT a nigger! ". To which she replies "Yes he is! And besides, I wasn't talking to you or about you, I was talking to your sister! We were having a conversation."

To my sister in law I say "Can you please not call people 'dicklickers"? that language is offensive. To which she replies "Whatever Rosalyn. You're so sensitive. I can't say anything"

To others who say "You are/She is retarded/delayed/deformed etc." I say "I don't like it when you call me that. Those words are offensive. They have said "Don't even go there! Its part of your diagnosis. It says mildly mentally retarded. Here, read it! And "Well, You don't walk like a normal person. "

You'll forgive me if I get a little angry after being dismissed. And I think what sets me off personally is that this is my family, these are my friends. They never asked me, "hey what's it like being black?" Or "what's it like being queer (surprise for those of you who didn't know ) Or what's it like being disabled?" So they don't know that every time I hear those words (or words like them), I shrink a little into myself. I put up a wall. Every time those words, or words like those are spoken, I feel tremendous pain and belittling.

I go out into the world and hear similar sentiments from strangers. What they say to me, it stings, but they don't have a bearing on my life. I'm not connected with them in anyway. If I make a request and they listen, maybe we can open up a wider dialogue about why their language was so troubling, they could rephrase the issue and we can start a dialogue. Hey, look! Education. I help them share in my experience, they help me share in theirs.

Its important because the way they talk about topics concerning groups I am a part of influences laws, elections and other aspects of society in which the opinion of the public is considered. I can help to refine their view by sharing my experience and they can then make more informed choices.

But if I make a request of them and they don't listen, but continue talking, I can walk away. It isn't such a big deal.

If, however, the language occurs in a space that I value, that has connections for me: my workplace, my home, my Temple, I place a greater value on the connections and so I might spend a bit more time trying to get my point across. But with every deflection, I feel less and less heard, I shout a little louder. I value my connections, but I am also in pain. I am asking you to listen to me.

...

Ah, now you will listen, but it has to be on your terms. I have to be completely calm and reasonable while you dissect my responses. I can't be angry at all. Not allowed. Otherwise I won't be heard. And I am not just talking to one person. Everybody is around me at a table (I have had this experience too) and it feels like me against the world. Their motives may be pure, but there are so many of them, their eyes all trained on me. So now, not only am I in pain, I'm also on edge. You know what it feels like? Like being an animal in a cage with all these gawkers around. I'm on display. The exotic Rosalyn will now share her experience. I don't like that feeling either. I much prefer a space where I feel on equal footing. It's not that I am not capable of having discussions, but right now, it would do wonders for me, and for the educational opportunity if we simply had this conversation one on one.

You don't have to do anything. I am asking you to make a sacrifice.

You say to me "speak softly and we will hear you". But why am I being called to adjust? I, the one in pain, have to put that aside? I wasn't angry before you basically said I was making a big deal out of nothing, now I am angry. Maybe you should have not made assumptions about my feelings of offense. You don't have anything to lose by looking at my pain.

You say to me "speak softly". I say to you "Listen intently. Listen and believe me".

Maybe later we will talk about other things but for now, all I can say is I hear your pain. Im probably not someone you want to even hear right now so i wont say anything else. I hear your pain. And there are people here genuinely care about you.

I think this is a great conversation and I am glad people are participating in it.

Maybe later we will talk about other things but for now, all I can say is I hear your pain. Im probably not someone you want to even hear right now so i wont say anything else. I hear your pain. And there are people here genuinely care about you.

Thats it. Thats all I wanted. Thats all many people want. Not with qualifiers, not with quantifiers, not with appeals to logic, but...just to look at this part of the Creed and show it in that moment:

I am a Jedi...I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console, to be understood as to understand, to be loved as to love..."

We, who have nothing to lose by taking a step back to listen should yeild our space to the person in pain.

Later, when we are both, or all calm, we can have a conversation, but for now...listening, consoling, understanding, loving, those are paramount.

Rosalyn, I wanted to put this out there because I see where on of my comments (in another thread) may have come off as a personal call for you to temper anger in response to something I don't understand. That can be seen and taken as personal attack and this was not my intent, after consideration I should have stated it better so please accept my apology for that.

I think the most important thing in what we should look at is all of these three mixed. Understanding of our own perspective helps us with defeating perception, confirmation bias and helps us to listen to other views. The thing is we really have to be the ones to drop our egos for information to stick (not the presenter but the listeners). Perspective is a product of ego, it will always be there but to suppress it well other speak allows a much more likely absorption of the stimuli they are trying to relate. Sorry, I know that sounds coldish. I have my experience of dealing with what people assume an alcoholic is. Believe me being open about recovering doesn't really put you on anyone's top hire list.

In Peace and Respect
Tim

I have been as guilty as anyone else of putting my argument before my ability to be compassionate or empathetic. It will probably happen again when I am frustrated or I've had one too many beers, but that is not an excuse for being selfish.

What I am learning from this conversation is that not everyone is looking for a solution. Not everyone wants answers. Not every conversation has to be a debate. Sometimes we just need to be heard and acknowledged without being told we are wrong or how we can do better.

For my part, I'll say this now. I will try to hear you before I speak, and I will try harder to acknowledge other people and their valued role in the conversation before I seek to validate my own thoughts and opinions.

And to you , Ros, I have believed that I knew you and I have heard you loud and clear before, but I see I was wrong about a few things. I have heard some of what you have to offer us, but there is clearly more wisdom there if I choose to listen more and speak less. Thank you for being strong in this conversation and sharing experiences that I'm sure were not easy to recount. I'm listening, and I hear you.

Rosalyn J wrote:

Maybe later we will talk about other things but for now, all I can say is I hear your pain. Im probably not someone you want to even hear right now so i wont say anything else. I hear your pain. And there are people here genuinely care about you.

Thats it. Thats all I wanted. Thats all many people want. Not with qualifiers, not with quantifiers, not with appeals to logic, but...just to look at this part of the Creed and show it in that moment:

I am a Jedi...I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console, to be understood as to understand, to be loved as to love..."

We, who have nothing to lose by taking a step back to listen should yeild our space to the person in pain.

Later, when we are both, or all calm, we can have a conversation, but for now...listening, consoling, understanding, loving, those are paramount.

I think in real life it's easier to know when to apply that advice and even then I feel its going to harder for men to see the signs. Men in my experience tend to want to fix things or get to a solution when a problem or debate crops up. So when someone posts an issue for me unless it's in somewhere like rants or the support/well wishes section I tend to believe the person wants to debate or a response.
But that aside you have a going point. The question I have is how do we realize when this is what the person needs. Sometimes I just want my issues heard and sometimes I need someone to give advice or tell me I am being a prat. And considering that sometimes I can be pretty dang thick and need a good verbal back and forth that may get heated before I get it how do we know when to just listen and when a person needs the proverbial boot?
Those questions are genuine in every sense of the word. Because that is something I tend to struggle with. It's also maybe something we should keep in mind that people tend to want to help us even if all we are looking for is to be heard.

Some Go-En Thoughts (I haven't used that term since Force Realists Magazine )

It's hard to understand away your frustrations. Actually, I have one that makes me even more frustrated as I try to understand it: I'm a Female Veteran. My husband is also a veteran, but it upsets me when people acknowledge his service and not mine. They seem to think I'm some woman that is trying to take my husband's rank. That comes from male veterans and civilians alike.

It's upsetting to feel like you, as a person, are not recognized for what you say you are. Some people do not identify as their race. While others are deeply connected to that aspect of their culture, their ancestry, etc. For the former (which you tend to find more in the military than other groups) they don't want to see race, so it hurts them to be identified as such. For latter, it hurts that people will not acknowledge their culture they love so much, and take great pride in. It can be difficult to identify which group an individual falls into (colorblind vs color-vibrant), but we can learn by paying attention to them, and trying to understand how they want to be viewed.

I think it important to learn how people identify, let them talk until you get to know them. Give them a bit of yourself, but you're looking mostly for what it is that makes them them. The individual before you, is always a treasure to learn about, and can provide you with new information about different views in the world- from the cultural to the soul of the individual.

It's actually a lot easier to get to know someone, than it is to understand your frustrations away.

MadHatter wrote:

Rosalyn J wrote:

Maybe later we will talk about other things but for now, all I can say is I hear your pain. Im probably not someone you want to even hear right now so i wont say anything else. I hear your pain. And there are people here genuinely care about you.

Thats it. Thats all I wanted. Thats all many people want. Not with qualifiers, not with quantifiers, not with appeals to logic, but...just to look at this part of the Creed and show it in that moment:

I am a Jedi...I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console, to be understood as to understand, to be loved as to love..."

We, who have nothing to lose by taking a step back to listen should yeild our space to the person in pain.

Later, when we are both, or all calm, we can have a conversation, but for now...listening, consoling, understanding, loving, those are paramount.

I think in real life it's easier to know when to apply that advice and even then I feel its going to harder for men to see the signs. Men in my experience tend to want to fix things or get to a solution when a problem or debate crops up. So when someone posts an issue for me unless it's in somewhere like rants or the support/well wishes section I tend to believe the person wants to debate or a response.
But that aside you have a going point. The question I have is how do we realize when this is what the person needs. Sometimes I just want my issues heard and sometimes I need someone to give advice or tell me I am being a prat. And considering that sometimes I can be pretty dang thick and need a good verbal back and forth that may get heated before I get it how do we know when to just listen and when a person needs the proverbial boot?
Those questions are genuine in every sense of the word. Because that is something I tend to struggle with. It's also maybe something we should keep in mind that people tend to want to help us even if all we are looking for is to be heard.

I'm thinking on your question Hatter. And I'm thinking on the thread as a whole. I'm glad this discussion is happening. I'll share more when its not my pumpkin hour.