Well done, feminism. Now men are afraid to help women at work

This was interesting.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/relationships/11904203/Well-done-feminism.-Now-man-are-afraid-to-help-women-at-work.html


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I read a similar article earlier. I think there's too much of a blame game going on with feminism.. as with everything, a minority shout the loudest and are thought to speak for everyone (just like Ms Proudman)... so everyone starts acting as if those minority do speak for everyone. People need to take some responsibility for themselves, not just blaming everyone else (or, indeed 'feminism') [edit] or acting like they want to be offended... because it prevents people who really do have issues in the workplace from sorting them.
The culture of suing for everything doesn't help either...

Edan wrote: The culture of suing for everything doesn't help either...

I hear the tales of how widespread it is in America - though I don't have the data. Is the situation in the UK/Europe similar?

Well I've audited solicitors in my job who only deal with people suing their employer/the council/supermarkets/housing developers etc.
And given the number of adverts for injury lawyers.. I'd say we have litigation culture here too at least to some extent. How that affects employers generally I don't have statistics for that... but I wouldn't say it's outside the realm of possibility for it to be occurring.

It does seem that those who have manipulated the Socio sexua it does seem that those who have manipulated the System to further their own careers or simply their bank account is beginning to backfire. Before too long there will come a time where men will claim sexual discrimination as a woman would automatically be given more privilege that a man. I have witnessed this behavior with other demographics as well with the practice of reverse sexism and reverse racism. Not that they are without merit in the past, those who do take advantage rarely have regard for the others in their demographic that they actually harm professionally.
Only solution is to let time pass and let them deal with their own consequences.

I think there are a number of questions that need to be asked here:

1. What is defined as "helping" women?
2. How many actual cases of men being seriously punished for such incidents as holding open a door or trying to help a woman on a project exist?
3. Why is it that men are threatened by the idea of being punished for wrongdoing as opposed to being threatened by the idea that other men might be harassing and/or assaulting women in the workplace?

On question one, sometimes I think men get a way too focused on the little things they call "helping" like holding a door open rather than actual help like ensuring women get paid the same as men or making sure that claims made to HR are taken seriously rather than women getting the third degree. Men want to be perceived as moral upstanding citizens by their actions in a moment but don't seem to take a look at the broader picture ("tunnel vision"). Now that men are facing actual consequences for serious violations of their workplace policies, it seems to me more likely that men are crying discrimination over the fact that they have to be concerned with getting caught doing something wrong rather than being concerned about the staggering number of cases of women being harassed or assaulted in the workplace.

One question two, as I mentioned in my commentary for question one, men have a ridiculous case of tunnel vision. One incident where an HR department overzealously punished a man for an honest misunderstanding and suddenly that makes men on the same level as women. We're talking about undoing centuries of systematic dehumanization: women, for the better part of human existence, have been considered property not people in Western civilization. Women didn't gain the right to vote in America until 1920 (and even then it was only white women with wealth and leisure to go vote as opposed to women of color and working women). As history as shown, legislation doesn't reflect the practice of the people of the land. Just because women have had certain rights for a number of years, it doesn't mean women had the practical ability to do what they should have been able to do.

On question three, I have seen a quip from a professor at my alma mater which went viral a year or two ago on social media, "The only thing worse than being homophobic, racist, sexist, or classist is being perceived to be those things." I see a lot of men gripe and complain about the idea that they have to be careful about what they say and do, but that in no way is equivalent to the harm that being racist, sexist, homophobic, or classist does to people. It's a fundamental lack of perspective created by never having to worry about the things which people of color, women, queer people, and socioeconomically disadvantaged people have to deal with.

Stipulation 1: I am largely against PC-ism. I think it may have started out and is continued by genuine folks who want to make their classrooms, workplaces, and social environments a safe place for historically and currently disenfranchised people, but I think being PC creates the same "tunnel vision" problem that men have. Words hurt, yes, but there are bigger fish to fry than making sure that someone uses all the correct terminology (this is especially important considering that queer terminology is a still-evolving, ever-developing dictionary of concepts). Furthermore, we cannot have conversations about actual progress if we're always tip-toeing around our words trying not erode someone's ego. So yeah, language is important but I think we get too hung-up on language then we miss the whole point of trying to change things.

Stipulation 2: Coming out of Call-Out Culture has been a real eye-opener. You see, there are lots of people out there who experience oppression on one or two axis (queer and suffering from mental illness, queer and living with a physical disability) who get caught up in a particularly violent and self-castrating ideology which paints itself as the only true form of progress. They use their oppressed status as a way to shield themselves from actual, useful criticism and refuse to acknowledge that any strategy other than their own could be more beneficial to helping themselves and others like them. Instead, this ideology creates such hostility, escalating every confrontation into a zero-sum game that many people who would otherwise help are completely turned off by what they've seen.

Reminds me of a joke I read yesterday, something like I tried opening a door for a women to be nice to her, and all I got was her screaming her head off at me about how she was trying to pee in here.
:lol: :pinch:

Feminism is just another poisonous school of thought that emanated from the teachings of the Frankfurt School. Though most people are unaware of it, Critical Theory is to much (most?) of the West what Confucianism was to Dynastic China.

Here's me speaking as an intersectional feminist:

I think we all understand the difference between an idea and the application of an idea.

Also, I get the impression that men afraid of being helpful because of feminism probably don't understand it. In real life, being authentically civil and polite isn't all that hard. And when you make a mistake, you just adjust your behavior next time.

This isn't all that complicated. Do right by people. Trust them to know what that means. Find out.

you just adjust your behavior next time.

Which is exactly what is happening. Einstein wasn't the only one to figure out that insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect different results. Get punished for holding the door open = don't hold he door open again. Sorted.

Sadly there is a very noticeable difference here in America. Although it also depends on where you are. Example...Utah vs Michigan.

When I was a young teen, just learning about gender roles and formalities I was taught all the niceties....the old school way. You know. Smiling and saying thank you when a Man open's a door for you, carrying around a secret bit of cash in your bra or shoe just in case your male counterpart run's short on the date funds, making sure you thank and even boost the ego of your male counterpart when he helps you to get something from the top shelf...even if you could have done all these things yourself, that is not the point here.

Now a days it is a miricle if a man opens a door for the girl. Like...seriously. In all my life only two men did that for me, and each time my jaw practically dropped (you can imagine how many compliments I dished out - poor fellow may of died from blushing lol) .

And then I read about my sister going on a huge rant because how dare that one boy open the door, and just to spite him she went through a completely different one because she was perfectly capable of doing it herself.

I also remember a time when a girl even smaller then me (really tiny small chick) thought she could man it up with the rest of them and unload the truck like the macho boys....poor thing nearly got crushed under pallets >_<

So yea....I completely believe that there is a huge change in these mannerisms of late.

Now that men are facing actual consequences for serious violations of their workplace policies,

Um...

I face possible consequences at an accusation...

[strike]men[/strike] humans have a ridiculous case of tunnel vision.

Fixed that for ya...

Seems I see that here too from many facets of humainty...

But, yea, I got tunnel vision, its called my family, and no accusation, no perceived slight, is going to fuck up my income to provide for them...

So, open your own door, notice your own dress, yada, yada...

You don't see the retractions and corrections making the headlines, or getting jobs back, or helping get the next job...

So which one is it? Women aren't advancing because men won't help them because:
a.) fear of false sexual harassment claims
b.) fear of "strong women"
c.) the men are mysogynists
d.) women are cold-hearted, lying bitches that hate men

I wouldn't say it was because men have stopped helping. I'd simply say that anybody with a chip on their shoulder and a self proclaimed right to aggressively push their beliefs on others is disruptive to a work place, perceived as a greater legal risk and is thus undesirable.

Jestor wrote: I face possible consequences at an accusation...

This isn't about you, that's the problem. Just because you face consequences for an accusation doesn't mean that reflects the whole.

Jestor wrote:

[strike]men[/strike] humans have a ridiculous case of tunnel vision.

Fixed that for ya...

If by fixed you mean "castrated" perhaps, but otherwise no you just missed my point entirely.

Whyte Horse wrote: So which one is it? Women aren't advancing because men won't help them because:
a.) fear of false sexual harassment claims
b.) fear of "strong women"
c.) the men are mysogynists
d.) women are cold-hearted, lying bitches that hate men

The fact that you have to first demean women to make your point is quite telling. *hums "One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesn't belong"*

Jamie Stick wrote:

Jestor wrote: I face possible consequences at an accusation...

This isn't about you, that's the problem. Just because you face consequences for an accusation doesn't mean that reflects the whole.

You are right, my life is about those who depend on me, like my family....

I lost one job due to my offending someone, and rather than tell me, they reported me...

Went from 64k to 18k in one year...

I'm speaking with experience...

Was I wrong, yep, technically, I was wrong... Could the reporting person handled it different, was it worth ruining my life?

I think most folks share "off color" remarks/jokes with friends, well I guess he wasn't really a friend...

It was my fault, and my family suffered, it won't happen again...

Even the hint of intentional impropriety will be avoided...

This topic is very much about "me" and why i act like I do....

I get improper jokes and stuff still shared with me, if I reported them, poof, gone... And, its women sharing with me...

But, "once bitten, yada, yada" I mind my own....

Jestor wrote:

[strike]men[/strike] humans have a ridiculous case of tunnel vision.

Fixed that for ya...

If by fixed you mean "castrated" perhaps, but otherwise no you just missed my point entirely.

Oh no, I didn't miss your point...

I hope you caught mine?

Jestor wrote: You are right, my life is about those who depend on me, like my family....

I lost one job due to my offending someone, and rather than tell me, they reported me...

Went from 64k to 18k in one year...

I'm speaking with experience...

Was I wrong, yep, technically, I was wrong... Could the reporting person handled it different, was it worth ruining my life?

I think most folks share "off color" remarks/jokes with friends, well I guess he wasn't really a friend...

It was my fault, and my family suffered, it won't happen again...

I'm a little confused because off-color remarks have always been a risk in the workplace, but I'm not quite sure if we're talking about an incident where women (specific women or women in general) were on the receiving end of these remarks. I am referring specifically about the latter. I realize this must be a fairly personal thing for you to talk about so I don't want you to feel like you have to share, but I would like to point out that I am speaking about a very specific type of harassment that occurs in the workplace: sexual harassment (which does not only encompass sexual acts performed against one's will, but also sexually derogatory comments made towards someone).

Jestor wrote: Oh no, I didn't miss your point...

I hope you caught mine?

Yes, but it's a false equivalence and that's why I felt like you missed my point. Of course everyone experiences tunnel vision, but I am not talking about everyone, I am talking about men and a trend of a certain kind of tunnel vision which has negative impact on women and the discussion of justice and equality for women.

Jedi Believe

In a society that does not discriminate on the basis of [..] circumstances of birth such as gender

Hate to break it to some of you, but to be Jedi is to be inherently Feminist - that is, to believe in and advocate gender equality.

I'm exceptionally dubious of the original article, tabloid journalism at its brilliant worst, broadsheet or not. "But I was just complimenting her outfit!" says the guy who spent 10 minutes objectifying a woman. "But I was just holding the door!" says the guy who got creepily close to a woman every day for a month and made her feel like she couldn't go to work. Who knows, but allegations work both ways.

HR departments also operate within our litigious society and whilst they are undoubtedly wrong sometimes (all human structures are), they don't spend all week sacking people for holding a door once. Most have involved verbal and written warning processes in place to cover themselves in the event someone sues for wrongful dismissal. And if not, rather than bitching about it in the media, why aren't these "poor men" going to court themselves? Happy to loudly complain, but not happy to pursue the legal channels designed to help people in that situation... seems legit.

I would find it inappropriate and uncomfortable for a colleague to expend a lot of effort discussing another colleague's appearance. It's unprofessional. Likewise I would find it inappropriate for someone's Olde Timey manners to be employed in the workplace, because it's 2015, not 1815. So some people find it charming, that's nice. Some people find fart jokes and racial epithets charming. Many people don't, and if you don't know for sure, don't make people uncomfortable - or accept the consequences when you do. Noone is under obligation to run their complaint past you, and at work you don't have the right to "do whatever you feel like", your contract of employment makes that clear. You're expected to act professionally, and what that means has (thankfully) advanced somewhat over the last few generations. It includes assisting or mentoring colleagues where appropriate irrespective of their gender. They're not a male colleague or female colleague. They're a colleague. Don't understand that? Maybe you have some reading to do...

Feminism is a belief that women deserve the same rights and freedoms as men. It's really very depressing to see it misinterpreted here, by people who claim to stand for equality and compassion. "But what of these poor marginalised men?" well perhaps they should realise they don't live in the world of 100 years ago anymore, and that society has moved on, and that if they really think about it for five seconds their "marginalisation", meaning inability to perform social niceties, is perhaps somewhat less important than the ability for women to vote, get decent jobs and find representation when they're treated like objects?

This is the bed Third Wave feminism has made. Now we all have to lie in it: wide-awake, hearts racing, eyes wide open, waiting for the lawyers to come hammering at our doors.

lol, seriously.

most of the people i work with are women...i hold the doors open, grab things that are too high up for them to reach, etc...never once heard a complaint, they all seem rather grateful...

now from experience it seems to me that looks play a part...because i have noticed that with some women if a man they consider "unattractive" tries to help or act gentlemanly they perceive his actions as sexist or pervy....yet when someone they consider attractive does the same things they perceive his actions in a positive manner....

tzb wrote: Hate to break it to some of you, but to be Jedi is to be inherently Feminist - that is, to believe in and advocate gender equality.

Dude, that's not the definition of feminist. That's the definition of gender egalitarianism.

Feminist: noun - a person who supports feminism.

Feminism: noun - the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

Being an a-hole to everyone is not a right. Lying is not a right. I think men don't help lying a-holes because they're lying a-holes. Sometimes a cigar is really just a cigar.