The Force in-Universe: Portrayals of Religion, or Philosophy?

Discussion carried over from the thread on Jedi Realists vs. Jediism.

Do you believe that canon sources indicate use of the Force as a religion more often than not? Yes? No? Ballpark franks?

I often like to refer to:

Star Wars, Outcast
Fate of the Jedi Book 1

http://atanveer.homeip.net:8181/Reads/Star%20Wars%20Pack/6%20-%20Legacy%20of%20the%20Force%20Era/4%20-%20Fate%20of%20the%20Jedi/1%20-%20Outcast.pdf


Ben hopped down to stand beside his father. Keeping his tone down, he asked, "What was that all about?"

Luke gave him a slight, private smile. "Rival School Traditions."

"Huh?"

"In many martial schools, such as rival lightsaber training academies in ancient times, or military academies outside the old republic, someone visiting a rival school would generally be denied any aid or information until he'd proved his worth. Which meant proving it to a Master of the school in one on one combat. As we arrived, I could sense Tistura Paan's presence with in and what her role was. And that she knew we were coming"

"But you didn't fight her."

"Correct. If I had agreed to fight Tistura Paan, someone beneath my rank, I would be acknowledging that I was not the equal of her Master, so Id never see the leader of the Baran Do Sages."

A light flared into luminescence in ben's head "All, so your student had to beat her student."

"And you did, and very well. You turned your mistake into her mistake and your weakness into your strength."

"And you got clean nails in the bargan. A win all around"

When I watch Star Wars and read the books I don't see a whole lot of Religion. In fact....I can only think of one instance...one time....when a religious representation was shown in star wars. (Clone wars) Everything else was all Military/Martial heavy.

The use of the force and spiritual representations were all based on the focus on their powers and technique. I personaly saw no religion in any of my readings of the fictional works, Star Wars. Jedi, to me, were much like a Live in Martial Arts school in Korea or Japan where you learn to regulate your Chi to make your mind and technique more applicable.

Didn't George Lucas consult Joseph Campbell, who was a mythologist (scholar of mythology from which religion itself is rooted in) when creating Star Wars and especially the Jedi?

From that other thread:

Oneiros wrote: From IMDB:
Admiral Motti: Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerer's ways, Lord Vader. Your sad devotion to that ancient Jedi religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes, or given you enough clairvoyance to find the rebels' hidden fortress...

[Vader makes a pinching motion and Motti starts choking]

Darth Vader: I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Not that I personally care how an individual views being a Jedi when it comes to threads like these, but it has been called a religion for quite some time now.

Which marks at least 2 references to it as a religion in 1977, with the other being Han Solo's dismissive attitude.

From IMDB:
Admiral Motti: Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerer's ways, Lord Vader. Your sad devotion to that ancient Jedi religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes, or given you enough clairvoyance to find the rebels' hidden fortress...

[Vader makes a pinching motion and Motti starts choking]

Darth Vader: I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Governor Tarkin: The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion

It's been referred to as a religion since the first movie. Whether the speaker was calling it a religion while trying to make fun of it is irrelevant. As for the books, they have been many authors and those authors have many viewpoints and very well may have made efforts to distance their writing from the religious aspects of the Jedi. It doesn't have to have religious significance to everyone, but the inherent spirituality makes in impossible to separate one's self from the religion. A good example would be really liking a lot of Jesus taught, following his teachings, but never going to church or worshipping in any sense.

George Lucas consulted and used many many different influences and ideas for Star Wars and the Jedi. Joseph Campbell was just one inspiration of several and is not the complete underlying factor of "Jedi" nor is Joseph Campbell's Power of Myth a religious article or beliefs. It is simply a belief.

Chi is just energy...it CAN be turned into a religion if you so choose to take it as your source of worship and organized practice. Or...it is just energy, and when understanding the methods of constructs it can be used. Just like the Force.

re·li·gion noun \ri-ˈli-jən\
: the belief in a god or in a group of gods

: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods


Jedi of fiction didn't worship a god, or the Force. They merely took what they knew and applied it into their studies. If you took the force away from a Jedi they would still be Jedi serving the Peace and bringing Justice.

Kitsu Tails wrote: Jedi of fiction didn't worship a god, or the Force. They merely took what they knew and applied it into their studies. If you took the force away from a Jedi they would still be Jedi serving the Peace and bringing Justice.

There are many religions that don't worship deities. I think you'll find the remainder of that definition you gave hints at such:

They did talk about the "Will of the Force" an awful lot though.

Considering all star wars expanded universe material has been relegated to "legends" and is no longer considered "canon" per the LucasFilm story group (i never read any post Jedi novels anyway) I'd say with what's left of the canon it seems like it has more of a religious vibe then not.

That seems rather done on purpose...framing as more of a religion that is

Yea as a kid I clearly heard it referred to as a religion in A New Hope, the most specific IMO being;

TARKIN; The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion.

From that beginning, I viewed all other fiction in that context. Given the fiction was built based on human myths and religions are vehicles for that sort of thing, it sort of reinforces the practicality of it being a religion in the fiction.

I define a religion as a pursuit or interest followed with the greatest devotion possible, a central structure of social and self identity which is actively engaged in participation and observance. The supernatural stuff is a bit of a misnomer for me in defining religion, but the concept of a 'Force' does open that angle if people wanted to associate those concepts directly.

Han solo calls it a hokey religion in "a new hope". (edit: i just realised someone else mentioned that on the other thread)

I always viewed it as the non force users due to their lack of knowledge and understanding contributed it to a religion. Which, that would make sense to them if you think about it, with the meditation (form of prayer) etc. So I could see how the non force user could just call it a religion.

Revan Falton wrote: I always viewed it as the non force users due to their lack of knowledge and understanding contributed it to a religion. Which, that would make sense to them if you think about it, with the meditation (form of prayer) etc. So I could see how the non force user could just call it a religion.

A real-world analogue, on occasion, is the refusal of some people to consider Buddhism a religion even as those same people agree it should be given all the rights, responsibilities, and privileges of a religion.

I also feel the need to note that just because you understand something scientifically doesn't make it any less mystical or religiously empowering; the Big Bang as noted by science-minded Christians does not make the account of creation less spiritual, but usually tends to make it more so.

In addition, in the EU, when you meet most Force-sensitive societies, whether or not they are familiar with the Jedi, tend to perceive these abilities as spiritual and religious in nature. Some of those traditions even survived contact with the Jedi Order and existed alongside them. Furthermore, the Jedi rank we are most familiar with in fiction, the Knight, was most likely chosen due to the history of the word. It does not escape me that a Jedi Knight's power comes from the Force, and the original "font of honor" for Eurpoean knights was the Church. It's not strong enough to be an actual connection, but it lends itself well to a supporting argument of my other points.

steamboat28 wrote:

Revan Falton wrote: I always viewed it as the non force users due to their lack of knowledge and understanding contributed it to a religion. Which, that would make sense to them if you think about it, with the meditation (form of prayer) etc. So I could see how the non force user could just call it a religion.

A real-world analogue, on occasion, is the refusal of some people to consider Buddhism a religion even as those same people agree it should be given all the rights, responsibilities, and privileges of a religion.

I also feel the need to note that just because you understand something scientifically doesn't make it any less mystical or religiously empowering; the Big Bang as noted by science-minded Christians does not make the account of creation less spiritual, but usually tends to make it more so.

In addition, in the EU, when you meet most Force-sensitive societies, whether or not they are familiar with the Jedi, tend to perceive these abilities as spiritual and religious in nature. Some of those traditions even survived contact with the Jedi Order and existed alongside them. Furthermore, the Jedi rank we are most familiar with in fiction, the Knight, was most likely chosen due to the history of the word. It does not escape me that a Jedi Knight's power comes from the Force, and the original "font of honor" for Eurpoean knights was the Church. It's not strong enough to be an actual connection, but it lends itself well to a supporting argument of my other points.

Possibly. However, you must look at it this way. Most religions were created by men seeking to explain scientific occurrences that they did not understand. Such as the sun, weather changing, famines, etc. In their minds back then, due to the fact there was not an abundance of knowledge to explain how the universe works, they created dieties to control things they could not understand.

Now, on to the point you have made about the Jedi Religion in the fiction. Yes, I understand that in the EU(which is where I spend most of my Star Wars time at, vs the trilogies) that there are an abundance of NON-Force users who call it a religion. However, I personally have never seen or have any recollection of a Force user stating that it was religion. So in my mind, who to trust? The person who doesn't control the force, and doesn't have an understanding of it, or a person who can control it, and has more of an understanding of it then the other person.