Hey! Let's Open The Vaccination Can Of Worms!

Since a small but growing Measles outbreak started at Disneyland just over a month ago, everyone is taking sides and preparing for a political and legal war over the risks/benefits of vaccinating children. This argument is especially common in Southern California where I live, and our reputation for sensationalizing everything is definitely showing in this instance.

Some believe it should be legally required. Others believe that some vaccines may contribute to Autism and other medical conditions in children. Still others just don't believe in the effectiveness of vaccines, or choose alternative medicine instead.

As I've done very little actual research on the topic and I'm hearing quite a few outrageous claims being thrown around in media, I'd like to have a reasonable discussion about it here in the Temple to perhaps better inform my own perspective on the matter before I open my trap on the subject.

I'll start with this... I have received all of the suggested vaccinations and booster shots throughout my life. I have not had the Measles, and I'm not considered Autistic. That's about all of the empirical evidence I can offer on the subject. It leads me to believe that vaccinations are probably a good idea.

Thoughts?

The suggested link between autism and vaccinations has been studied and falsified rather conclusively. Some vaccines, especially ones against new kinds of diseases that may for that reason not yet be optimised can potentially lead to the patient experiencing symptoms of the disease though they are designed such that the patient would overcome them and throught that learn to overcome a genuine attack by the real thing.

It doesn't cause an immunity in every case, though in most. However, an epidemic will arise if sufficient people are not immune against the attacking germ. So even for one without the immunity, living in a community where as many have it as possible is almost without risk whereas to live in one where some parents think they can refuse medical treatment to their children if they so choose usually puts the entire community at risk through one more person who not just isn't immune by statistical chance but can't be by parental choice.

Of course nobody can tell their neighbor what to do. There is no law against putting your neighbors at risk. The side that argues for a mandate to vaccinate thinks that there should be such law and I for one agree. With great power comes great responsibility. If one is able to help people, then with or without their will, to not try would be a moral crime against them.

Senan wrote: As I've done very little actual research on the topic and I'm hearing quite a few outrageous claims being thrown around in media, I'd like to have a reasonable discussion about it here in the Temple to perhaps better inform my own perspective on the matter before I open my trap on the subject.

I'll start with this... I have received all of the suggested vaccinations and booster shots throughout my life. I have not had the Measles, and I'm not considered Autistic. That's about all of the empirical evidence I can offer on the subject. It leads me to believe that vaccinations are probably a good idea.

I am 100% with you on this. I have done little to no research on the subject but am vaccinated and niether sick with measels or autistic. Given the number of people that I know in that catagory I am inclined to think that vaccinations are a very good thing. Gisteron just helped rienforce that idea, thank you Gisteron.

My difficulty lies in the part where laws requiring vaccines would be making people do things against their wills, even if the things we're telling them to do are the smarter option and gernerally better for the over all health of the community as a whole. Lately I've found myself more and more against laws that force people to do things (or not do things) against their will if they don't pose an immediate threat to others. Forgive me Gisteron, but I got confused by your middle paragraph so I'm unclear whether one unvaccinated person poses a threat to multiple vaccinated people or not.

This is difficult because I don't like forcing people to do stuff, but I believe that its for the betterment of society. These are the types of things I need to continue to meditate on to determine where I personally draw the line. I'm still evolving.

Great thread. I look forwards to reading more responses, both scientific and moral.

This subject has been hot for me too lately. My daughter is three months old and only has her first round of shots so is still very susceptible to this stuff. The herd immunity would protect her...if there was some.... I live just north of Sacramento and the next town over is listed as one of the highest cities in CA that anti-vaxxers live...

I feel like this comic really explains it very well http://aattp.org/this-magnificent-comic-strip-lays-waste-to-the-anti-vaxxer-movement-so-completely-it-may-never-recover/

It's been proven time and again that vaccines do not cause autism. I personally have a vaccination list literally two pages long, from Smallpox, Typhoid, Yellow Fever, to Anthrax.

I can't reach most of the webpages here so hopefully Steamboat will have some good references for you but I know that i09 does a lot of the pro-vaxx posts and so does IFL with lots of good references.

Good question. This is a very important one.
(( In good old American fashion - here is my disclaimer: Just to be clear, I am not a certified Doctor or nutritionist. These are my opinions based on my research and training))


Based on my research, in general, we need vaccinations because we have such poor diets. Our food is fake and dead. Our food lacks diversity and nutrients. For our safety, we kill our food so it can be "shelf stable". Its possible to write that we need vaccinations because our bodies can no longer defend themselves - so we need help.

If you eat a standard American diet with fast food, sugar, HFCS, corn, gator aid and other synthetic foods, then I might advocate vaccinations for your benefit and all those around you.

However, if you are willing to eat real raw "beyond organic" food, then I suggest avoiding these toxic injects that can actually damage or weaken your healthy immune system.

I suggest a healthy diet rich in fats.

Some topics that I might suggest that you look into are:
Here is a list of things that I am researching:

I am a student of Weston A price principals:
http://www.westonaprice.org/

i enjoy the teachings of Royal Lee and standard process
https://www.standardprocess.com/Home
http://www.doctorsresearch.com/royallee.html

I like the GAPS diet.
I am reading the Wahls protocol.
I like the Paleo Diet.

all of these talk about eating a variation of "paleo diet" and having a lot of real Fats.
Due to the lack of nutrients in our food, I suggest supplements like Stand Process.

Look into Colloidal Silver. That is the power house of "cures".

There are so many alternatives to Vaccination, that I suggest digging in. Get healthy. Avoid the three whites - sugar, salt and floor. Only eat REAL food. Ingredients should be simple - they should be real words and reference food.

The issue is getting access to the quality of food that you need to make this work. For example, drinking only real grass-feed unpasteurized and un-homogenized raw milk. If its any other kind of milk - avoid it. But remember, real milk can be tough on the body because you are not use to it. Start slowly. Do research and get training in how to do this healthily.

The issue with real food is its alive and living things can "kill" or "hurt" you in different ways. There are reasons why America pasteurizes and homogenizing things. There is a reason and there is science behind these things that is "justifiable". It truly is for your safety because of what we have done to our food supplies.

If you go this route, please do your research and take it slow. Our bodies are not use to real foods.

I got distracted haha: As for my personal feelings, I believe that it should be a law that everyone who is not allergic to them, get immunized. So the folk who CAN'T be immunized either because they are too young or have some other real medical issues preventing it aren't put at risk of life-threatening diseases unnecessarily. By choosing to ignore the facts and live off of a baseless fear, people are putting not only their children at risk, but others' children as well. If it had been proven that immunizations did cause detriment overwhelmingly to the point the risk might not make up for the reward, (or the facts were not there to support either side) I can see it being a personal option. But with the overwhelming evidence in the support of vaccines and the massive risk to other people, I don't think it should be an option at all.

I tend to agree that a natural alternative is typically better than a manufactured one in all parts of life. It will not surprise me if a link between Autism and some processed chemical in our food or environment is found. The evidence suggests that the Measles vaccine is not this link.

I also accept that without vaccines, Small Pox, Polio, and a whole host of other terrible diseases would continue to take thousands of lives instead of being a thing of the past. The fact that Measles was nearly eradicated in the U.S. and has since come back tells me that the vaccine works.

Does this give me a reason to advocate requiring it for all the children attending my niece's preschool? I would say 'yes', but then I am trusting those with the power to do so that they will be reasonable when applying this standard to other possible threats. I'm not so sure I'm ready to trust politicians paid by pharmaceutical companies to decide what actually constitutes a threat to the public health.

*Edit: As much as I may mistrust the politicians to do what is best for me, I trust them WAY more than the idiots (read Jenny McCarthy) using their celebrity status to spread dangerous misinformation simply because they feel entitled to do so.

baru,

Not too long ago there was a time before modern times when everyone ate food that never saw a factory, every baby was breastfed (or fed milk from some other mammal) because there was no such thing as formula, and there were no vaccinations because there was little in the way of medicine. Yet they still contracted nasty diseases that are preventable today with vaccinations. A natural lifestyle will still lead you to some very natural killers.

Get healthy. Avoid the three whites - sugar, salt and floor

The brain requires sugar, the body requires salt, and there's nothing wrong with flour. The body needs carbs from somewhere. It's all a matter of moderation. (but will still not keep you from getting Measles)

Senan wrote: I'm not so sure I'm ready to trust politicians paid by pharmaceutical companies to decide what actually constitutes a threat to the public health.

I saw something in an article once that I liked. If the pharmaceutical companies were more interested in making money than saving lives, they wouldn't recommend vaccines. Vaccines help keep people healthy and out of the hospitals. Hospital visits are extremely expensive

Moral Comment: I am not vaccinated. Many of my family members and my friends and family friends are also....not Vaccinated and were it my choice, my children would not be vaccinated either.

I do not believe in contaminated my body with wishy washy substances that may or may not protect against 1 strand of several mutated strands when Proper Health, Hygeine, Environment and educative decisions making (Like traveling choices and actions) can do much more in the long run.

Forcing Legal obligations on vaccinations means you are taking away my rights as an American Citizen to choose freely how to live my life. So, I do not support it.

Just my two cents

Personally, I'd rather be vaccinated than risk death.

Edan wrote: Personally, I'd rather be vaccinated than risk death.

You risk death by accepting and taking the vaccination. In fact you even sign a waiver saying you know, understand and accept that risk.

I have a lot of thoughts on this. I'm going to blow through them rather quickly, and then if I'm less rage-filled later, come back and expand on some of my talking points.

1. Vaccines do not cause autism. The only "evidence" of this at all was a single study that was later retracted because it was an "elaborate fraud." There is no causal link whatsoever between vaccinations and autism. None. At all. Period. Anywhere in the ****ing world. None.
2. The seeming rise in autism is not because the incidence rate of autism is increasing. I know that will confuse some of you, but you're probably the same ones who think Isaac Newton "invented" gravity. Why? Because it's the same: the rise in the number of autism cases in the modern world isn't because autism is happening more often, it's because we're getting better at defining and detecting autism. Nothing in your "modern diet" or "chemtrails" or "omgvaxxiiiiiinez" is doing it. We just have better diagnostic capabilities now, so more cases are getting the attention they require.
3. Autistic people are not the boogeyman. When you say "vaccines cause autism", not only are you being scientifically ignorant because you listened to some bleach-blonde washed-up celebrity bimbo, but you're also being outright insulting. Saying "vaccines cause autism" is just a polite way of saying "I would rather risk the death of my child than to have an autistic child." My two best friends (and their children) are autistic. I cannot express to you how completely offensive that idea is.
4. "Boosting" your immune system naturally does not work better than vaccination. Many "natural immune system" advocates will say that exposure to the disease is far better than getting a vaccine, and is safer, and "the way our bodies were meant to work." These people have a fundamental misunderstanding of vaccination, because that is literally what a ****ing vaccine does, only a vaccine does it in a controlled dosage, in a controlled environment, intentionally, without the nasty side effects of paralysis and death that your child would suffer getting some of these diseases the "natural" way.
5. Anti-vaxxers are potential murderers. There are a lot of immunocompromised people in my kith and kin. They cannot get vaccinated because of immunodeficiency disorders, cancer therapies, and many other reasons. By joining the "anti-vaxx" bandwagon, you're telling me that your desire to feel validated through s**t science, and your right to exercise bad decisionmaking on behalf of your child, is more important than my friends and familiy staying alive. Let me say that again: you are literally killing people who rely on herd immunity because of their immunocompromised status.
6. You are solely responsible for the resurgence of things we eradicated from this continent decades ago. My phone doesn't know the word "polio." It's not in its autocorrect. Vaccines did that. You're undoing all that work. Measles cases skyrocketed in 2014, and smallpox is on the verge of making a comeback. Completely preventable diseases are ravaging the US in ridiculously large numbers because people too stupid to make logically-sound decisions think they know more than the entirety of the world's healthcare and scientific professionals on a matter they don't have diplomas to cover.

This is nonsense. I don't want to mandate vaccinations for everyone, but I damn sure think we should create laws that prohibit willingly unvaccinated individuals from interacting with the public at large. If your kid can get a vaccine and you choose for them not to, they shouldn't get to go to a public school. Period.

This whole movement is utterly ridiculous.

I've never signed a waver form (I am in the UK). Tetanus kills almost immediately. Polio is debilitating. I trust my doctors.

Respectfully, I feel like the vaccination argument warrants as much time and effort as whether or not the sky is blue on a clear day. There has not been any peer-reviewed, clinical evidence linking vaccination with autism. There have been wild claims and discredited studies, but that's it.

"Then why did I get sick?" Because, while vaccines are excellent science, they are not perfect.
"Merck made a ton of money off vaccines!" If I sell a solid product to lots of people, I will make money too.

Public Policy, however, is a different matter. I think relatively few of us want to write laws that compel behavior, at least in principle. No one wants to wrestle a child to the ground and stick him or her with a dose of MMR, even if it would be inarguably good for them, barring certain health concerns. I have a friend who is unable to receive vaccines because of an allergy to certain egg products. She relies on the rest of us to remain well.

Herd immunity only works if as much of the herd as possible participates. I must confess I am unsure of how a law might or should be enforced on the issue. I am not in favor of the use of force, but I don't want someone else's ill-educated choices, however well-intentioned, to put other children at risk.

For instance, should the parents of very young children who were exposed to measles at Disney by children of people who opted not to vaccinate have legal recourse? The epidemiology on this one is still unfinished, but if parents against vaccination indeed created the exposure, are they legally responsible for the deaths of other children?

An extreme question, perhaps, but I suspect that the epidemiological findings surrounding this whole Disney Land fiasco could alter the legal debate over vaccination significantly.

Kitsu Tails wrote: Forcing Legal obligations on vaccinations means you are taking away my rights as an American Citizen to choose freely how to live my life. So, I do not support it.

Just my two cents

Your rights end where mine begin and you are risking the lives of my family and others. I'm all for personal choice but when it involves the health of another individual, there should be limitations on it. There are all sorts of laws on firearms because of the harm they can cause people. Not getting vaccinations are no different.

I wouldn't have a two-page vaccination record if they didn't work. The military does not spend money that massively that frivolously. Even the FLU vaccine is required for us.

There's nothing wishy-washy in vaccinations.

Kamizu wrote: Your rights end where mine begin and you are risking the lives of my family and others. I'm all for personal choice but when it involves the health of another individual, there should be limitations on it.

This. Exactly.

It's against the law to operate a motor vehicle while intoxicated because it could kill other people.
Why are the potential dangers of willing non-vaccination not similarly regulated?

The big deal here is 10% of people who get vaccinated don't get immunity which means these unvaccinated people could easy kill you. We don't let people drink and rive or drive recklessly because they could kill you, it's not a question of freedom of choice ,but a matter of public safety.

steamboat28 wrote:

Kamizu wrote: Your rights end where mine begin and you are risking the lives of my family and others. I'm all for personal choice but when it involves the health of another individual, there should be limitations on it.

This. Exactly.

It's against the law to operate a motor vehicle while intoxicated because it could kill other people.
Why are the potential dangers of willing non-vaccination not similarly regulated?

Lol, you said the same thing as I was typing this.

Vesha wrote:

steamboat28 wrote:

Kamizu wrote: Your rights end where mine begin and you are risking the lives of my family and others. I'm all for personal choice but when it involves the health of another individual, there should be limitations on it.

This. Exactly.

It's against the law to operate a motor vehicle while intoxicated because it could kill other people.
Why are the potential dangers of willing non-vaccination not similarly regulated?

Lol, you said the same thing as I was typing this.

lol my firearm example may have sucked but at least there's other people who have better ones