Splinter thread from HuffPost interview post, ie: Jedi, 2500 Years ago?

Maynoth wrote: One thing from the interview, Jedi as in people who dedicate their life to understanding and mastering "the force" have existed for thousands of years. This isn't something that started when Lucas wrote star wars, nor did it become a religious phenomenon in the 1990's.

The school of Jedi I study has existed for 2500 years, others are older than that even.

Other than that I enjoyed the interview and found it very interesting.

Jestor wrote:

maynoth wrote: One thing from the interview, Jedi as in people who dedicate their life to understanding and mastering "the force" have existed for thousands of years. This isn't something that started when Lucas wrote star wars, nor did it become a religious phenomenon in the 1990's.

The school of Jedi I study has existed for 2500 years, others are older than that even.

Other than that I enjoyed the interview and found it very interesting.

Maynoth...

You are saying people called themselves Jedi, 2500 years ago?

Really?

Or is what you are saying is the ideas and briefs we have, 2500 years old?

And if the first, could you please she's me an example?

Thanks...

maynoth wrote:

Jestor wrote:

maynoth wrote: One thing from the interview, Jedi as in people who dedicate their life to understanding and mastering "the force" have existed for thousands of years. This isn't something that started when Lucas wrote star wars, nor did it become a religious phenomenon in the 1990's.

The school of Jedi I study has existed for 2500 years, others are older than that even.

Other than that I enjoyed the interview and found it very interesting.

Maynoth...

You are saying people called themselves Jedi, 2500 years ago?

Really?

Or is what you are saying is the ideas and briefs we have, 2500 years old?

And if the first, could you please she's me an example?

Thanks...

No, Jedi wasn't a name they used 2500 years ago. I am not sure if they called themselves anything. Scholars referred to them as Xians or Hsiens.

Stories of these elite masters are deeply embedded in Chinese folk history and culture, their history and legends resemble very closely the fictional Jedi from Lucas's fiction.

I will send you an example via pm so as not to prolong argument and debate here.

Jestor wrote: OK, so by that, "Jedi" have only existed for the last 35+ years, right?

I get what you are saying, the philosophy and way of thinking isnt new...

Just making sure we are speaking the same language...

maynoth wrote:

Jestor wrote: OK, so by that, "Jedi" have only existed for the last 35+ years, right?

I get what you are saying, the philosophy and way of thinking isnt new...

Just making sure we are speaking the same language...

People who devote their lives to the study and mastery of "the force" have existed for 2500 years at the very least.

I define a Jedi as a person who devotes their life to the study and mastery of the force, but others may not, it seems to be open to interpretation.

Alethea Thompson wrote:

maynoth wrote: People who devote their lives to the study and mastery of "the force" have existed for 2500 years at the very least.

I define a Jedi as a person who devotes their life to the study and mastery of the force, but others may not, it seems to be open to interpretation.

So do the Sith. See why this is HIGHLY flawed?

maynoth wrote:

Alethea Thompson wrote:

maynoth wrote: People who devote their lives to the study and mastery of "the force" have existed for 2500 years at the very least.

I define a Jedi as a person who devotes their life to the study and mastery of the force, but others may not, it seems to be open to interpretation.

So do the Sith. See why this is HIGHLY flawed?

There are good people and bad people, they are still people.

Seeking to help others, or exploit others is an issue of morality and ethics.

Personally I am not seeking to help others, nor am I seeking to harm or exploit others.

If the universe puts me in a position to help someone I try to, if it doesn't I don't go out of my way to find people in need.

In any case master yoda wouldn't have become a master if his only abilities were that of hosting internet radio shows about Jediism, and volunteering at soup kitchens.

Alethea Thompson wrote: Today had a sense of duty. He charged forward to bring about balance to "the Force". A Jedi Apprentice is someone training to become a Jedi, not someone who already is one. So in reality, Yoda did not become a Jedi until he received his knighting.

maynoth wrote:

Alethea Thompson wrote: Yoda did not become a Jedi until he received his knighting.

If he had all his boyscout badges, walked 4000 old ladies across the road, spent 10,000 hours volunteering in soup kitchens, and hosted his own pre-youngling/padawan radioshow, would he have been knighted if he had no mastery of the force whatsoever?

Adder wrote:

Alethea Thompson wrote: Today had a sense of duty. He charged forward to bring about balance to "the Force". A Jedi Apprentice is someone training to become a Jedi, not someone who already is one. So in reality, Yoda did not become a Jedi until he received his knighting.

I'd probably disagree with that. I think in the fiction a Jedi is anyone who was in the Jedi Order, and to be in the Order required certain standards of Force sensitivity and commitment to the ideals etc. Padawan, Apprentice, Knight etc are just rank's of skill attainment and commitment, and therefore duty.

ren wrote: This is getting a bit off-topic now but I'll say it anyway: at TOTJO you do not have to be a knight to be a Jedi.

Alethea Thompson wrote: I happen to agree with Ren. That said, it's a matter of terminology (darn auto-correct, my phone is driving me nuts with it Today=Yoda for anyone that didn't catch that), Adder. Perhaps it would be better to make the statement that you are fully a Jedi when you become an apprentice. When Luke was learning the Jedi Arts, it was alluded that until he mastered the ways of the Jedi, he would not fully be a Jedi. Furthermore it is stated in Episode 1 by Qui-Gon to Anakin: "Anakin, training to be a Jedi will not be a easy challenge. And if you succeed, it will be a hard life." This is where I draw my conclusions from.

Alethea Thompson wrote: Now Maynoth, let's say he ONLY mastered "the Force"- and he didn't actively seek to be an active participant in giving back to the community he was sent out to support? Would he have become a knight then?

What you are missing, is that it's not an "either-or" situation. It's is the sum of ALL of it which makes you a Jedi. How that Force Mastery comes about will be in a myriad of different forms, not just the John Chang method.

maynoth wrote:

Alethea Thompson wrote: Now Maynoth, let's say he ONLY mastered "the Force"- and he didn't actively seek to be an active participant in giving back to the community he was sent out to support? Would he have become a knight then?

What you are missing, is that it's not an "either-or" situation. It's is the sum of ALL of it which makes you a Jedi. How that Force Mastery comes about will be in a myriad of different forms, not just the John Chang method.

Well I still stick by my assertion, Jedi in the star wars universe all had force abilities gained via their training. Master yoda was old, but he didn't need any force Viagra to get his lightsaber activated. If all Yoda could was walk old ladies across the road and work part time at a soup kitchen he would have never made grandmaster.

I concede that being apart of the organization, working for the betterment of humanity, following moral codes and philosophies were apart of it as well.

Developing force abilities is the aspect of the Jedi religion that resonates with me, it doesn't resonate as strongly with you and that's cool too.

Please pick it up from here...

OK Jestor, kewl. I PM'ed my response to Alethea yesterday to that thread so not to derail it more, but now I can post it here

Alethea Thompson wrote: Adder. Perhaps it would be better to make the statement that you are fully a Jedi when you become an apprentice. When Luke was learning the Jedi Arts, it was alluded that until he mastered the ways of the Jedi, he would not fully be a Jedi. Furthermore it is stated in Episode 1 by Qui-Gon to Anakin: "Anakin, training to be a Jedi will not be a easy challenge. And if you succeed, it will be a hard life." This is where I draw my conclusions from.

There was no Order when Luke was being introduced, and in a way like Qui-Gon talking to a young child, I can see how simplification could serve when talking to the uninitiated/uneducated/ignorant - use of the term Jedi there might be like a carrot on a stick to bait their focus towards that which they identify with. So I dont view those examples as intending to portray fact so much. My opinion was just trying to reconcile the movies to the EU material where it seems normal people call any Force sensitive associated with Order a 'Jedi'.

So to add, for me the term Jedi requires both the Order and a concept of the Force. There be lots of flavours of Jedi since 1977, but none before... perhaps just 'Force' users. I like going back through history and looking at famous people to see how well they fit the concept.

maynoth wrote: I define a Jedi as a person who devotes their life to the study and mastery of the force, but others may not, it seems to be open to interpretation.

Im not sure I agree. Devoting your life to God does not nessesarily make you a priest. Mastering the art of fighting with a sword does not make you a knight. Devoting yourself to helping in your community does not automatically make you a member of Rotary. Mastering card tricks does not gain you entry to the guild of magicians.

In my opinion, mastery or dedication to any skill does not automatically mean that you are part of a group or collective. Like anything, its a concious decision to accept and uphold the value system of any particular group, not just the ability to do the same thing as people within that group.

As I think Alethea also pointed out... where does that leave Sith? Do they not also seek the same in terms of The Force? Or do they not exist in your reality maynoth :S

I've commented on these sorts of things before, with my unpopular view... :laugh:

Skip to the bottom if you already know what I'm going to say

I'm going to try to explain what it means to me to be a Jedi...my personal faith system, as such...

Jediism is a religion - one possible meaning of the term 'Jedi' (there are other meanings, such as the Jedi Realist term 'Jedi' which means something different) is someone who follows the religion of Jediism. Jediism is a religion because it is centred on belief in and focus on the Force - this belief is what distinguishes it from being a philosophy, or a path. Therefore, one who believes in the Force has the right to call themselves Jedi.

I can imagine the counter-argument that Jediism also has other 'rules' and doctrine that must also be observed...but I go back to other religions, i.e. Christianity, and there's this huge book called the Bible that sets out all the rules and expectations...do most Christians believe in and adhere to everything in the Bible? Of course not. But their fundamental belief in the Christian God makes them Christian.

Now, of course, if you believe in the common Jediism view of the Force, we are all one...if I am you and you are me do compassion and love not automatically have to become staples of your life? Why would you want or allow another to suffer when doing so means that a part of you is suffering? Therefore a Jedi should also be guided by these kinds of principles, but not because of the behaviour of some cool dudes with lightsabers in a fictional movie, but because of the nature of the Force, that foundation of our belief...

Therefore, my personal understanding of a 'Jedi' is someone who believes in and follows the Force...all other virtues of the Jedi stem from this rather than being separate elements of the definition.


To link all that to the original post(s), I guess that means that in a way I agree with Maynoth regarding what a Jedi is...but at the same time, I echo Jestor's sentiment that Jedi did not exist 2500 years ago...

Just people with very similar beliefs to ours. 'Jedi' is only a word, a collection of 4 letters...a Jedi can only exist as long as the word exists. Beliefs exist independently of the word.

Does that make any kind of sense? I'm not sure that it does :dry:

V-Tog wrote: Therefore, my personal understanding of a 'Jedi' is someone who believes in and follows the Force...all other virtues of the Jedi stem from this rather than being separate elements of the definition.

Makes a lot of sense actually. Would that then include anyone who follows the force without believing that it is the force? For instance if someone identifys as Christian or Anthiest but upholds the values of compassion and love, you would consider them Jedi even if they do not consider themselves that?

How many atheist popes, cardinals and priests have you heard of?

How many knights (in the context of medieval times) couldn't hold a sword?

How many magicians do you know who can perform no magic tricks?

Brenna wrote:

maynoth wrote: I define a Jedi as a person who devotes their life to the study and mastery of the force, but others may not, it seems to be open to interpretation.

Im not sure I agree. Devoting your life to God does not nessesarily make you a priest. Mastering the art of fighting with a sword does not make you a knight. Devoting yourself to helping in your community does not automatically make you a member of Rotary. Mastering card tricks does not gain you entry to the guild of magicians.

In my opinion, mastery or dedication to any skill does not automatically mean that you are part of a group or collective. Like anything, its a concious decision to accept and uphold the value system of any particular group, not just the ability to do the same thing as people within that group.

Akkarin wrote: As I think Alethea also pointed out... where does that leave Sith? Do they not also seek the same in terms of The Force? Or do they not exist in your reality maynoth :S

There are good people, and there are bad people.

Being a gun owner doesn't make you a good or a bad person.

I am not here to debate morality and ethics which is really what this Jedi/Sith debate comes down to.

I don't much care for the Sith, to me they are even more juvenile (if that is possible) than most of the Jedi I meet.

I care not what name they were called 2500 years ago.

What I am talking about is a group of hermit monks that could be in a star wars movie without the need for any special effects.

People who have reached another level of being entirely.


You could change some names and key facts around and add in some lightsabers to the history of some of these schools previous lineage holders and you could publish it as star wars fiction easily.

V-Tog wrote: I've commented on these sorts of things before, with my unpopular view... :laugh:

Skip to the bottom if you already know what I'm going to say

I'm going to try to explain what it means to me to be a Jedi...my personal faith system, as such...

Jediism is a religion - one possible meaning of the term 'Jedi' (there are other meanings, such as the Jedi Realist term 'Jedi' which means something different) is someone who follows the religion of Jediism. Jediism is a religion because it is centred on belief in and focus on the Force - this belief is what distinguishes it from being a philosophy, or a path. Therefore, one who believes in the Force has the right to call themselves Jedi.

I can imagine the counter-argument that Jediism also has other 'rules' and doctrine that must also be observed...but I go back to other religions, i.e. Christianity, and there's this huge book called the Bible that sets out all the rules and expectations...do most Christians believe in and adhere to everything in the Bible? Of course not. But their fundamental belief in the Christian God makes them Christian.

Now, of course, if you believe in the common Jediism view of the Force, we are all one...if I am you and you are me do compassion and love not automatically have to become staples of your life? Why would you want or allow another to suffer when doing so means that a part of you is suffering? Therefore a Jedi should also be guided by these kinds of principles, but not because of the behaviour of some cool dudes with lightsabers in a fictional movie, but because of the nature of the Force, that foundation of our belief...

Therefore, my personal understanding of a 'Jedi' is someone who believes in and follows the Force...all other virtues of the Jedi stem from this rather than being separate elements of the definition.


To link all that to the original post(s), I guess that means that in a way I agree with Maynoth regarding what a Jedi is...but at the same time, I echo Jestor's sentiment that Jedi did not exist 2500 years ago...

Just people with very similar beliefs to ours. 'Jedi' is only a word, a collection of 4 letters...a Jedi can only exist as long as the word exists. Beliefs exist independently of the word.

Does that make any kind of sense? I'm not sure that it does :dry:

maynoth wrote: How many atheist popes, cardinals and priests have you heard of?

How many knights (in the context of medieval times) couldn't hold a sword?

How many magicians do you know who can perform no magic tricks?

Brenna wrote:

maynoth wrote: I define a Jedi as a person who devotes their life to the study and mastery of the force, but others may not, it seems to be open to interpretation.

Im not sure I agree. Devoting your life to God does not nessesarily make you a priest. Mastering the art of fighting with a sword does not make you a knight. Devoting yourself to helping in your community does not automatically make you a member of Rotary. Mastering card tricks does not gain you entry to the guild of magicians.

In my opinion, mastery or dedication to any skill does not automatically mean that you are part of a group or collective. Like anything, its a concious decision to accept and uphold the value system of any particular group, not just the ability to do the same thing as people within that group.

How many Christians are there who are not cardinals or priests?

How many swordsmen were there who weren't Knights?

How many magicians belong to the guild?

The ability to perform the "skill" is not the same as the acceptance of the "code" for lack of a better term.