Oh, for the Love of Pronoun!

(Thread is to prevent another thread's derailment)

Read posts:

http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Jediism/46934-The-Imperishable-Gem?limit=10&start=250#87976
http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Jediism/46934-The-Imperishable-Gem?limit=10&start=250#88012
http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Jediism/46934-The-Imperishable-Gem?limit=10&start=260#88025

When addressing people in general what pronoun should we use? The initial quote uses 'himself' I say we should use a non-gender-specific one (Alex suggested oneself)

Often I see 'him' referring to 'people' when the document is written by a man. I questioned its usage. Alex is right in pointing out that 'As long as the linguistic use of 'he' or 'she' is not used in an exclusionary way toward the other gendre, it is not sexist at all.' well...

The occasional slip aside I think it is perhaps endemic of people's thinking that there is only one gender or perhaps symptomatic of people thinking like themselves instead of like 'we' or 'us' or 'one'

That is that point I wanted to make (but not derail the thread ). What does everyone think? I understand that there may be no malice behind it but I think that at the same time it could carelessly show the positions people have about things like this...

I use 'oneself' - I always have done, and I like the word :laugh:

Sometimes I'm accused of talking like the Queen though :silly:

I think that 'himself' is sort of accepted as normal because of the historical background (i.e. men being seen as much more important). Therefore men do sometimes say/write it without thinking much of it, because it has always been a fixture in the way that we use language.

Women, however, are now in a world where we believe in a right to equality with men, and so you rarely hear a woman referring to a hypothetical genderless other as 'himself'.

Interestingly, though, women don't often use the pronoun 'herself' either. I would guess that's because of the lack of historical context. In this day and age, we (both men and women) could not start using the pronoun 'herself' in that way without realising how illogical it is.

But somehow 'himself' is exempt from having to be logical because it's embedded in our consciousness.

Such is the way of tradition...I think that many traditions are summed up by the previous sentence.

Yes that is the way I see it. Interestingly though 'herself' is used often with nature. That again comes from the mythological concept of the 'mother' the 'bringer of life'. That is why we have 'Mother Earth' not 'Father Earth' which just doesn't sound right

Though referring to objects as 'she' is often done by men because they feel it is their partner, or perhaps because they feel they own them (maybe?)

A lot of this is just perhaps innocently ingrained in us throughout our lives. I say innocently because no one thinks anything of it. I just think that perhaps we ought to think something of it given the historical context from which it came...

I never thought about it before so my interest was aroused. I guess I'm in the habit of "himself" or "their self". My vote goes to trying to say "oneself". Broken down its about as clear and correct as the reference can be.

A lot of plausible answers and comments have already been said. Personally, all I have to say on the matter is that using the word "it" or "itself" is gender neutral, but also socially neutral as well. It just doesn't sound socially friendly or right, in other words, so sometimes it is necessary to refer to some unknown-gendered person as a "him" or "himself" before we get to know them. I don't think females tend to mind, from the people I've talked to...the same goes for calling girls "hey guys". They don't seem to mind at all. They actually call each other guys as well.

Since before the twelfth century, it has been used reflexively when the sex of the antecedent is unspecified.

One can use a multitude of other words depending on the circumstance, but to be grammatically correct does not require word substitution. Personally, I feel that when quoting someone it is important to maintain the integrity of the phase in question; because, it is the meaning of the context being conveyed, not the particular wording in most cases.

For personal use, go with what feels right at the time for each case. English is, after all, a living language and constantly growing and changing.

My vote is for oneself...

Traditionally male forms have been used (though in this same vein only males would be reading).

I have seen modern formal writing where male and female are used throughout but that always seems terribly awkward, as is the case when both are used with a slash (i.e. s/he him/her).

Unfortunately, the English language doesn't provide us a word for being symbolically gender neutral other than using "one."

This is really weird being it's own thread ... :ohmy:

Most of you can see this ; those who can, pass it on if you like :

http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/93-Journals/87077-The-Orion-Codex?limit=10&start=10#87153

... just the ramblings of an old poet. :whistle:

Well, it's really a problem for me! In my language, the same word "او" ( read "oo" as in "book") is used not only for 'he' and 'she' but also 'it'. If you notice, when I write something generally, I write '(s)he' or 'he or she', or 'him/her' or 'himself/herself' or.... one of my English teachers always told me to use 'one' instead of this, and the other told me that 'one' is not used in today's world, it's kind of old...Well, if I'm going to make a choice, I prefer to use 'one' instead of all of these other things.

I tend to try and use they/them. It might not be sexiest but different gender specificity can make it harder to read and connect too. I think gender specificity though has its place if its specific to referring to an individual because then its just fact.

"A Teacher is never a giver of truth; they are a guide, a pointer to the truth that each student must find for themselves."