Opening the Gates

ren wrote:

For example, there's this atheist classmate who, in every mandatory chapel session, constantly whispers to the guy next to him, "that couldn't happen....that's fake...that's the truth for messed up people."

Are you saying that this guy should enjoy it/ remain silent? It's not as if he chooses to be there. You'll tell me the guy could just sit there, not listen, play on his gameboy... But would you ask this of someone who is being raped?

...No....I'm not saying he should just "enjoy it/remain silent". You can't make someone enjoy something. And I'm not referring to the same type of silence you are referring to - which, I think you mean, is the type where the guy is restrained or oppressed and forced to be silent...


All I meant by that statement was that every single person should exercise some common decency and a certain level of socially expected discipline. By whispering those kinds of remarks, I ask myself, "is that REALLY necessary? I mean, does that guy have the adequate discipline to sit and listen, with a small amount of respect/tolerance, for a measly 30 minutes?


Honestly....I'm not sure why I'm being put on the spot for that statement....sheesh...

Wendaline wrote:

ren wrote:

For example, there's this atheist classmate who, in every mandatory chapel session, constantly whispers to the guy next to him, "that couldn't happen....that's fake...that's the truth for messed up people."

Are you saying that this guy should enjoy it/ remain silent? It's not as if he chooses to be there. You'll tell me the guy could just sit there, not listen, play on his gameboy... But would you ask this of someone who is being raped?

Are you actually comparing that with rape? haha Wow! I once was made to go to a Catholic school where I had a Jewish friend who also attended. She didn't become snarky or rude during mass. She sat quietly and studied her school work, listened to the service, or daydreamed. She was so very polite and respectful of another culture, and it showed what a good person she is. You don't have to agree with what's being said, but you don't have to ruin another's experience either. The kid next to that boy might actually want to listen to what's being said in the chapel session.

It's not rape. The boy could most likely get up and walk out if he's so inclined, ask his parents to enroll him in a public school, rebel and get expelled if it's indeed comparable to rape. Or is he held down? Strapped to the chair? Oh wait I know, it's a knife, right, being held to his neck? "Come on, cupcake, you know you want it. This chapel will make you feel gooood."

Wendaline, that is my point exactly. And I feel you have exercised greater judgement and reasoning than Master Ren, quite frankly...

Angelus wrote:
I don't think it's very fair to look down on someone for such an arbitrary reason. A militant atheist may be very offended by attempts at converting him/her, so is the militant atheist not justified in being verbally aggressive in response? If someone is staunchly opposed to your beliefs, it's not fair to try imposing your beliefs on them.

Not everyone is a Jedi, and not everyone believes in tolerance and respect.

Because "not everyone believes in tolerance and respect", isn't that frankly why the world is so messed up?

In my opinion, it isn't right to defend those who contribute to that kind of world/reality. True, people can behave anyway they want. However, just because they can doesn't mean they should.

SeanChing wrote: All I meant by that statement was that every single person should exercise some common decency and a certain level of socially expected discipline. By whispering those kinds of remarks, I ask myself, "is that REALLY necessary? I mean, does that guy have the adequate discipline to sit and listen, with a small amount of respect/tolerance, for a measly 30 minutes?


Honestly....I'm not sure why I'm being put on the spot for that statement....sheesh...

What makes you think you get to decide what other people should do? Are you saying that you're the standard for what's socially acceptable and what's not?

He must have been very uncomfortable in church; I know I would be. But not everyone is as disciplined as you think they should be.

If his parents insist on him going to that school, he can't disobey without encountering some serious resistance and quite possibly, consequences. When I first realized I was gay, I hid it out of fear; fear of what my family would think, of what my friends and teachers would think, and of what my other peers might think. It isn't always easy to defy what other people want for you, especially when they're close to you.

SeanChing wrote: Because "not everyone believes in tolerance and respect", isn't that frankly why the world is so messed up?

In my opinion, it isn't right to defend those who contribute to that kind of world/reality. True, people can behave anyway they want. However, just because they can doesn't mean they should.

The world is not perfect. Some people do not change. Intolerance is the antithesis to many things (like equal rights), but it is not the cause of imperfection in our world. Not everything is perfectly ordered.

Are you saying that you've NEVER been mean, unpleasant, or intolerant? You've NEVER contributed to any kind of negativity?

Everyone operates under different interpretations of tolerance and respect; yours may be more socially sanctioned than another's, but that does not mean that you are right and they are wrong.

I'll be the first to argue that intolerance is irrational; logic is contingent on objectivity, not narrow-mindedness.

I just don't want you to think I support intolerance.

While i understand that not everyone belivies in respect and tolarance, i agree that sitting still and quiet for 30min isnt too much to ask. If he indeed felt so un comfortable sitting in church as to be compared to rape i think he would do best by simply leaving.

If for example a woman is raped. she certainly dont enjoy it. But does she stay to tell the rapist or any bystander: thats wrong, he cant do that?... no, she tries to get out of there.

If i was the boy in chuch i would leave. If someone tried to stop me physicly i would escelate it into a bit of a scene. Then they would want me to leave.
As for the consequences. I would try to explain my view of the situation and why i wanted to leave. If there are still to come in effect. i think i would take them and make sure to show my clear loss of respect for anyone inposing them on me.

But thats just me. I do belive in respect and some tolerance. But when others refuse to show me respect i consider myself to be above them in the matter and simply ignore them for the time being.

Jedi Knight Angelus....I LOVE debating with you! Even though I might not like to admit it (because you can get really competitive!) you are an excellent critical thinker and can rebuttal nearly everything that I say.


In truth, whenever I disagree with you, I want to let you know that I still respect you. I'm still on your side. I'm still your friend. The disagreement is important and heated, at the moment, but being your friend is much more important.


Do you mind if we be friends? Of course, when it comes to a debate, I'll beat you someday! haha

Sebastian wrote: While i understand that not everyone belivies in respect and tolarance, i agree that sitting still and quiet for 30min isnt too much to ask. If he indeed felt so un comfortable sitting in church as to be compared to rape i think he would do best by simply leaving.

That's what I'm trying to explain to everyone too! I'm glad you understand me, Sebastian.

If for example a woman is raped. she certainly dont enjoy it. But does she stay to tell the rapist or any bystander: thats wrong, he cant do that?... no, she tries to get out of there.

If i was the boy in chuch i would leave. If someone tried to stop me physicly i would escelate it into a bit of a scene. Then they would want me to leave.
As for the consequences. I would try to explain my view of the situation and why i wanted to leave. If there are still to come in effect. i think i would take them and make sure to show my clear loss of respect for anyone inposing them on me.

But thats just me. I do belive in respect and some tolerance. But when others refuse to show me respect i consider myself to be above them in the matter and simply ignore them for the time being.

Yes.
Basically, Rape does NOT equal sitting in church. It just doesn't.
And I could argue with anyone who thinks that it is.

Angelus wrote: What makes you think you get to decide what other people should do? Are you saying that you're the standard for what's socially acceptable and what's not?

He must have been very uncomfortable in church; I know I would be. But not everyone is as disciplined as you think they should be.

If his parents insist on him going to that school, he can't disobey without encountering some serious resistance and quite possibly, consequences. When I first realized I was gay, I hid it out of fear; fear of what my family would think, of what my friends and teachers would think, and of what my other peers might think. It isn't always easy to defy what other people want for you, especially when they're close to you.

You're right. It can be really hard to defy what your family, friends, authority figures want for or from you, but becoming bitter over it doesn't help either. The fact is there are some things in life that we will experience that we don't like. Disrespecting others just doesn't help the situation. It's a weird lesson and maybe not always a right one (sometimes there are battles to fight) but learning it really does help. I'm just now figuring it out and it has saved me soooooooooo much trouble.

P.S. We are all telling each other what we should or shouldn't do by asking these questions and pointing out what we think is false reasoning.