Should prisoners be allowed to vote?

"Right... wow, wish I knew what the situation was in the UK, but over here in America, relegating ex-cons to immediate second-class citizenship is a pretty dehumanizing, unsympathetic thing to do."

'Will miracles never cease? Author-Mama herself starts off THIS one!' Tom cheered, sarcastically and balancing on the back of Jack's chair.

"No, I mean it Tom. And stop picking my hair for tics." Jack swatted him away, then pointed to Elysia, "Read 'em the statistics."

'The United States currently has more prison inmates that the leading thirty-five European countries combined, and most of it from the American War on Drugs, which makes even a possession of marijuana charge a felony and, even juveniles get harsh and long sentences, up to and including life-without-parole, even for a single offense committed as a minor. A half-million Americans are incarcerated for just drug offenses, with thirty-one million arrests on drug charges since the War on Drugs began, and four out of five arrests are made for possession, alone.' Elysia recited, flipping through the book Jack had handed to her, '93 percent of the prison populations being male, and 80 to 90 percent of all incarcerated drug offenders are men of color. In fact, in at least fifteen states of the US, men of color have incarceration rates from twenty to fifty-seven times that of white males.'

Tom willingly stopped picking at Jack's hair, this being of some importance to him.

'Dude, where're you GETTING this stuff?' He asked. Elysia held up the book, with the title 'Swagger: 10 urgent rules for raising boys in an era of failing schools, mass joblessness, and thug culture' predominately displayed.

'Lisa Bloom, New York Times best-seller.' She said. Tom let out a low whistle, obviously impressed.

"Still, again... I live in America, not the UK. Our laws, government, and whole judicial system is completely different. That being said, it still seems a bit much to just automatically determine that, if you spend time in prison, you're stripped of your human rights." Jack clarified.

'Y'all also don't think the Death Penalty's right...' Tom commented, now hanging from the ceiling by his tail. How, Jack wasn't sure, given that there was nothing in the ceiling for his tail to grip.

"I'll grant you that... but that just makes me more convinced -- at the very least, each case should have a thorough examination of the nature of the offense. If it's serious like first-degree, cold-blooded murder or rape, then of course the prisoner shouldn't be allowed to vote. But that's because the prisoner shouldn't be RELEASED from prison. If their offense was lax enough that they warrant release from prison at some point, then the case should be examined for any further punitive measures. But any hard-and-fast rule like denying voting rights to EVERYONE who served time is bound to be imperfect."

I am pretty sure that felons are permitted to vote here in Canada...they can also collect old age pension when they reach age 65. The only constitutional right they appear to loose is their freedom. Significant of course, but it seems to me that if you are being given a "time-out" from society you should loose all but your right to a roof over your head and food in your belly and you should be required to WORK for those things. My opinion only........

Those released from prison have all of their rights returned to them at the end of their probation...except the right to a passport to travel abroad...but that may be other countries preference...:S

This is very discouraging. Can anyone feel (or reason, it come back to the same) like a Jedi.

Nothing I have read here reflects anything about Jediism ...

how so? an appeal for mercy, compassion for others? an appeal that, once a person has served his time, completed his service to society as it were, they are no longer being punished? our own former president (gw bush) had at least one drunk driving arrest as well as an expunged cocaine arrest (daddy's fine hand, even then). and has been pointed out, we have MILLIONS in the corrections systems in some stage. are all of these people relegated to second class citizens, no matter the crime or sentence?

how is that stance not reflective of jediism?

Desolous,

Have you read what I wrote ...

Or read critically what we've (all of us) have been saying here ?

Can you find objectivity in any of that ?

Don't get offended ... let's talk about democracy.

Cheers,
A/O

Alexandre Orion wrote: This is very discouraging. Can anyone feel (or reason, it come back to the same) like a Jedi.

Nothing I have read here reflects anything about Jediism ...

There isn't much Jedi about punishment to begin with, though prison is quite a civilized form of punishment compared to what has been done at times throughout history.

I guess prison these days with all its modern conveniences provides 2 types of functions; 1. punishment to reform, and 2. separation and control to protect society.

As a punishment, it is being separated from society, so doesn't it seem logical that taking away their right to participate in a vote is part of that punishment. I guess a lot of the prisoners would not care in the slightest, but psychologically its removal would help create the illusion of being 'removed' from the population. As a measure to separate and protect it has less effect but it still removes their ability to influence important decisions of government - that might sound like a weak argument but consider if prisons get so big a candidate could appeal to that vote and achieve results in an effort to achieve power by pandering to the prison populations needs in some way.

Alexandre Orion wrote: Is this democracy ? Perhaps if we enjoyed true democracy, there would be far fewer prisoners to regret and reclaim the 'right' to vote. Far fewer causes to champion, far fewer crises of crises of crises, ad infinitum ...

In the interests of friendly discussion, what do you mean by true democracy? Complex systems need a layered approach for effective management to occur. In goverment it is why we have federal, state, local etc democractic establishments. The democractic process can only go so far and so regulations exist to shape the nature of societies activities where the mechanisms of democracy cannot effectively operate. I think the legal system extends the democractic mechanism into that realm of regulations. Government is not a system for individual empowerment, it is a system for social cohesion, and so we have this potential power of the majority to exert a real influence through the mechanism of democracy. The fact that exists is what makes a democracy worthwhile, because anything else has proved to be less effective. I guess the question is if there is anything better then it. Which takes me to an earlier point you had;

Alexandre Orion wrote: When for election upon election, we see the same names on ballots, in whichever state, we see the same persons holding the same and/or a variety of offices in combination or apart, we see political 'careers' (here I recall that one of the foundations of 'democracy' is to rule and in turn to be ruled) built over years of making and breaking alliances with contemporaries who are playing the same strategy game, the marketing (PR) of candidates whose names are more like commercial brands (symbolic identities) than identities of persons who take living, personal responsibility in the representation of their constituents. Politics, as it were, is divorced from ethics and morality, effectively eliminating any consideration of 'Justice' in the interest of 'economics'. Ah... but for that ...

Each layer of government talks to its constituents, and when I say constituents I do not mean voters but the groups who have direct contact and influence at which that level of government operates. While democractic government is accessible to (most) anyone, it is more realistically accessible to people at the same level of involvement. I think that is fair and reasonable, and I feel like that is why we have different levels of government, because each level operates to different levels of complexity in the system. In places like the USA it seems the feds really are more about the rich entities jostling for taxpayer money. In Australia its about business versus unions. As a result, each level operates to the issues for which it operates at and that is why we see federal governments appearing less relevant to local issues and especially so for individual issues. When these complex systems with multiple layers engage in focused fund raising and advertising the overall output is immense and now is becoming more a popularity contest akin to a sports match on good looks, acumen or wit... irregardless of truth or relevance. That is the power of the higher up levels being exerted down the ladder and the first thing to do is to cap spending on political campaigns.... though then you'll have the problem of government using educational campaigns as de facto political campaigns with taxpayers dollars and no-one will be able to get up against that multimedia capability. So perhaps crazy media campaigns is just another reality of our world and one which needs to mature and become responsible like any other influential mechanism experiencing rapid growth. The power within the democracy is that change is still within the peoples hands, its just now people can be influenced in greater exposure which exceeds our individual capacity to control our own exposure to it. I've thought for a few years now that people are suffering actual brain washing by some political campaigns which generate complex structures of emotion, division and internal jingoism which overpowers the individual process of rationale and replaces it with the party purpose and party plan of action.

Its such a complex topic, what this got to do with prisons again :lol:

Sadly (to me) there seems to be an impulse within the society that wants to keep the focus on continuous punishment of ex-felons. While it is true that no society can exist without the guidelines of some form of law/obedience code, and those who violate it ought to be subjected to justice, it is not just to inflict further punishment on that individual after their due process is over. If the individual has served his or her time, and has been deemed fit to return to society, than that person ought to be integrated back fully.

I'm not saying lay out a red carpet for every offender, but relegating a rehabilitated individual into a second class category only serves to make the likelihood of a repeat offence that much higher. I have dual citizenship in the UK and US and there is a marked co
ntrast (to me again) on how the systems differ, the strengths of each and the weaknesses of each...

This is very discouraging. Can anyone feel (or reason, it come back to the same) like a Jedi.

Nothing I have read here reflects anything about Jediism ...

'What?' Kendalina rose out of her chair and gripped the screen. Jack, knowing all the signs of when Kendalina was bound to start throwing things, wisely pulled away.

Similarly, Triclops stepped right up behind her. We can only presume this means Triclops was very foolish.

'Reason like a Jedi? ARE YOU KARKING SERIOUS? Reason like a Jedi about the civil rights of prisoners? What in the SEVEN KRETHIN HELLS is THAT supposed to mean? These are PEOPLE we're talking about! People with LIVES, people with FAMILIES, people who might not have been justly accused or condemned, people who might have had their civil liberties violated during the trial process, like if their state appointed lawyer just told them 'Plead guilty, it'll make things easier for everyone'! I see PLENTY of 'Jedi-like' discussion going on! What are you expecting, you giant NERFHERDER?'

'Kenda, shouting at the computer and calling him names will not get your point across any better.' Triclops calmly -- not timidly, though -- put in.

'No, Trike, NO! This gets my dander up! This reminds me of Master Windu, being all high-and-mighty about 'Oh, well, that's not the Jedi way' and 'Keeping to the Code' and all that. Y'know what else is part of the Jedi creed? COMPASSION! And JUSTICE! And there's no justice in blindly going into a conversation about civil rights without empathy for the prisoners OR the victims, if there were any to their crime. Just talking about it 'like a Jedi' is NOT just or compassionate or... ANYTHING Jediist.'

Meanwhile, all of the other characters were hanging back, watching the argument. Kakeru had even popped a bowl of popcorn and was passing it around. My, wasn't this fight entertaining.

'Ano, Kendalina-san.' Taro murmured, though quickly shutting up as Kendalina threw him a very venomous glare. Haid stepped in.

'Mister Triclops is right -- there are better ways to get your point across.' She turned to Jack, whom was browsing idly through a different book, 'Is that not so, Author-shaku?'

Jack closed her book, and her eyes, and took a deep breath.

"Actually, Kendalina shouting was kind of cathartic, but I am trying to remain calm." She admitted, "But Adder-senpai did put it aptly that there is nothing very 'Jedi-like' about punishment to begin with. And, the way I see it, discussing the rights of prisoners 'strictly from a Jedi perspective' would probably not be the best way to handle this topic. Like the front page says 'Who can say of their actions 'This is for the Force and this is for myself'?' And, honestly, seeing that really reminded me of a different conversation I'd had, once, elsewhere on the site."

Kakeru scooted in closer as Triclops tried to soothe Kendalina's inflamed temper. Oh, look, Triclops had made muffins -- wasn't he sweet?

'Do tell...' He urged. Jack took a deep breath and then reminded everyone that this related to the quote at the top because of the attitude and mindset to it.

"Well, on a thread started by WarBeauty about how lady members here would defend themselves against an assault, I took a very Jedi-like, very Buddhist and Zen approach, and said that, as Jedi, we shouldn't care because what happens to our physical bodies doesn't matter to who we are as beings or our connection with the Force. Problem: Another member responded with 'Do you really believe this or are you just trolling'? And..." Jack let it trail as all of her characters cringed, "...Ye-eah... taking the very strictly Jedi approach to that discussion had been a little... um... insensitive? Either way, it wasn't the right way to handle the topic. And it's the same here -- we can't talk about it 'Just as Jedi', we do have to consider it as just human beings."

Everyone looked over at Kendalina, whom seemed now significantly calmer with her mouth full of chocolate chip muffin. She glared right back at them.

'Wha? I'wz jus' SAYIN'...'