Gender vs. Sex: Nothing is Black & White

I've said before that forum should go...

the female Jedi (by anatomy, not by gender choice or association) have very unique issues. For example, we have breasts and periods. Men just don't have those things. So how we train, what we wear, how we sacrifice is totally different than for men.

Let me stop you right there. men have breasts. men can produce milk. Men have very unique issues. For example men have a prostate. How we we train,what we wear, how we sacrifice is totally different than for women. But guys dont get their forum. Depardieu doesn't get an apology fron ryanairfor being humiliated by their staff. That forum shouldn't have existed to begin with. Physiological/health issues can go in that forum.

As to thepsychological gender thing... even after speaking to red lila I still don't understand it. And I really don't think there's a need of a forum for that. It can go to general discussions or health forum.

And you point is totally valid Ren..that's why when this forum was initially created we also stated there should be a men's forum...but again..the men declined.

Learn_To_Know wrote: I'm not quite sure what you're wanting to learn by finding out whether people here are cisgendered or that feel their sex don't match their gender...?

I asked for no such information, merely that people give this topic their own consideration. Your gender is your business, and no one else's.

As for everyone else's responses, I'm glad to see a strong discussion. I understand that there are certain things bio-females experience that bio-men don't, but I struggle to see how that might pertain to discussions in the temple. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If we're going to have gender-focused Special Interest Groups, then it ought to be all-encompassing, just like the rest of the temple is. But again, I don't see how this qualifies as a SIG if it's merely a discussion about periods and breasts (no disrespect, Master War Beauty, just trying to clarify things).

Red Lila wrote: Hi Ace, you probably already know, given how open I am about it but I'm a transsexual/intersex woman myself. I agree with your description of things overall though have a minor disagreement in that I don't believe gender is strictly socially constructed. I think how we express that gender is almost purely socially oriented but that our internal feelings about who we are, while potentially societally impacted, are more rooted in our true selves and our biology. For this reason I usually split Gender into "Gender Identity" and "Gender Expression". When they are lumped together, if you were to be charting things out, crossdressers would fall very near to transsexuals, whereas when split apart, they may be similar in expression but identity will show the difference.

I completely agree with you, Red Lila. I just didn't want to confuse the people who aren't as familiar with gender studies as we are. I'm sure you'll understand.

War Beauty wrote: And you point is totally valid Ren..that's why when this forum was initially created we also stated there should be a men's forum...but again..the men declined.

But why did they go ahead with the women'sforum anyway? I know, in the non-totjo world, guys tend to give in to women's demands... but come on.

Aceboizor wrote:

Learn_To_Know wrote: I'm not quite sure what you're wanting to learn by finding out whether people here are cisgendered or that feel their sex don't match their gender...?

I asked for no such information, merely that people give this topic their own consideration. Your gender is your business, and no one else's.

Gotcha.

Glad we got that cleared up, Learn_To_Know. I didn't mean to pressure anyone into revealing their gender identity. I do, however, have on more point to make from your comment, if you'll permit me...

Learn_To_Know wrote: I don't have the statistics in front of me, but I don't think I'm amiss in saying the vast majority of the earth's population are cisgendered. A very small minority, but still sizable group would define themselves as transgendered. For the sake of numbers, let's say 90 to 10

I don't know how much of a background you have in gender studies and gender theory, but as one who has done a vast amount of research into this subject, I encourage you to delve deeper into these supposed statistics and look at the heart of the matter. The point is not how many people subscribe to the traditional gender roles, but that in today's society, many, many are bending the rules and bringing the space between male vs female closer together in what we are and what we do.

If we stick to the binary of male vs female (which I personally don't believe in, but let's use it for clarity's sake), gender is more of a spectrum than an either-or situation. Very few people actually fit fully into male or female, and rather exhibit characteristics of both sexes. Women in the work force do this every day, putting forth a more masculine role by being the breadwinner of the family, a traditionally male role. Men do this, also, with the increasing number of stay-at-home dads or in taking on more female-dominated jobs, such as secretaries and nurses. These people possess traits beyond their specified gender (within the binary).

Now, Red Lila brought up an excellent distinction earlier in the thread between gender identity and gender expression. Identity is what I've just described, while expression focuses less on how you identify and more on how you choose to reveal yourself in public. This might be what you're getting at, Learn_To_Know, in that many people express their gender in a cisgendered way, men wearing suits while women wear dresses (an exaggeration, but the point still stands). Or men expressing themselves in the more aggressive, emotionless way that is traditional for men (i.e. boys don't cry) and women expressing themselves in a delicate, compassionate way (i.e. girls in the home). But as for how someone actually identifies in their minds, that whole area is much more fluid, and in fact changes constantly throughout a persons life, even if the way you express yourself in public doesn't change.

While personally, I prefer to subscribe to the idea of human traits rather than masculine/feminine traits, society puts a huge emphasis on what is appropriate for the typical gender roles. But for the sake of this example, I have stick to the traditional gender binary. I'm sure everyone can understand.

ren wrote: But why did they go ahead with the women'sforum anyway? I know, in the non-totjo world, guys tend to give in to women's demands... but come on.

Because it is better to error on the side of caution…[/quote]

Ace wrote: I must admit I feel bothered by the fact that the subforum dedicated to gender is entitled "Ladies Forum."

Really? Your bothered by a forum? By words?

I understand what you mean Ace, I do, but, I think there are other things in the world more worthy.... lol...

Gender, transgender, male, female.....

I agree with LTK in saying we probably have a high count of.... "alternative lifestyles"...

Because "alternative lifestyles" are used to being judged by the "majority", I think they are more open to others points of view...

And, "alternative" being defined by comparison to stereotypical male/female roles....

Most people who come here are strong personality types... Mostly Alpha, some Beta, but few other than that....

We can stand, take criticism and dish it right back..

Looking at the most basic seperation, boys and girls...

Girls are often overshadowed by boys.... By that, I mean, men are stereotypically louder and more opinionated than women... (I didn't say right...lol)

Look at this Temple... We are predominantly male...

The female members we do have, for the most part, are strong willed individuals...

But, (again, stereotypically), a weaker willed woman may join here, and feel that because a man tells her an opposing view, she may feel her point of view is wrong....

Weak willed men will fall in line behind a strong willed man... Which is why there is no need for a man's forum...

Eventually, we show those weaker individuals that their opinion is every bit as valid as anyone else's...

But this is not always the case, initially....

This is not the first time this forum has been questioned, and I defended it the last time....

I see your points, and ill keep discussing, but I feel pretty strong about this one....

Although, there is nothing to keep men from posting in there... I wish there was...

My apologies, as I am still referring to the original post of the forum, and not the gender debate....

Jestor wrote: Really? Your bothered by a forum? By words?

I understand what you mean Ace, I do, but, I think there are other things in the world more worthy.... lol...

Haha, sure, but I prefer to stand up for the ones that mean something to me, and are often times underrepresented, and more frequently misrepresented.

And no worries; I'm glad you went back to the original topic. I can see what you're saying, but considering how infrequently it's used, I'm not certain it serves a purpose. The only discussions here that seem to hold any weight are ones that could easily fit under the health and wellbeing forum. Like ren said, men also deal with physical and mental issues that are unique. If there is to be a separate forum for these matters, then make it all-inclusive. If not, let those who want to talk about women's health issues do it in the health forum. It might actually bring in more of a conversation, as it has far more views than this Ladies Forum.