Occupy

The recent global unrest is a symptom of the institutions we call central banks. These banks basically work as an unlimited credit card for governments and we the people are the collateral, I am interested to know your thoughts and feelings on the subject. I personally believe we are in a time of great change in human consciousnesses and this is a result of that change. A realization that we are debt slaves to a system that makes men into machines and leaves us cold and bitter about our life and humanity. Slowly we see our rights stripped away and the people think nothing of it but the masses are waking up to this fact and it is time to rise up against this oppression. How do you all feel about the protests?

hello brinus. i am glad you broached this topic. i feel strongly about the current unrest and disorder.

i know that there is increasing income inequality. rich getting richer, poorer getting poorer.
i know that non violent dissent has been met with militaristic police violence.
i know that this disorder and chaos seems to be increasing over time.
and i know that i will do what is within my power to try to right some of these evils. i dont want to pass this world on to my son.

occupy wall steet, brinus. occupy all streets.

Until a better system is proposed I dont have a problem with capitalism since I think its benefits outweigh its weakness's. I reckon its main weakness is that it easily enables humans to be greedy, but I'm no economist by a long shot!! It is a complex beast.

The way business works is the regulations/laws define the playing field and its up to each business to achieve the most it can within that playing field. Business will always operate like that - always. Many of the most successful will operate right at the edges of legality and so naturally any weakness in the shape of the boundaries will be exposed and taken advantage of even if it could be detrimental to the system... why, because its legal.

So I tend to think the burden falls onto the government to set the boundaries to control that sort of thing. Its clear their was a systematic failure and that needs to be fixed. As someone once said, "Failure is not a crime. Failure to learn from failure is". So IMO we'd have to ask our governments what they are really doing to stop it happening again.

Harassing business doesnt seem to me like it is going to achieve anything at all. They just look at the movement as timewasters... not their time mind you, but the protestors time. The people with money are not the people protesting and the banks only listen to the people with money (and the government). The government though listens to all people. So not only is the government the one capable of making the required changes, but the government is the only one that needs to respond to the protestors (all people).

Why all the hate fro the central banks? I know the US federal bank is far from perfect (it's not controlled by the gvt), but they're hardly to blame for what is happening.

Bankers have been making money out of lending money they did not have to people (and companies and governments) who couldn't afford to pay it back. Turns out one day they all realized it was fake money, asked the insurance to cover their losses, insurance companies couldn't because all their assets were just as rotten as everyone else's.


What the not so evil after all central banks should do is print some money, which devalue the currency and make the country poorer from the outside but remain the same on the inside. And who cares if a chinese microwave costs twice what it used to. It always was under-priced and rubbish quality anyway.

I am well aware of the fact that the global market is far from perfect. But, these are the pains that come with growth. And, the current banking system is far from new or current. We are using a system that has effectively been in place for far longer than the U.S. The major difference between the banking systems origins and its current form is complexity and who regulates it. No longer does the church have legitimate control over the state of interest, debt or collection.

If I understand the cause of much of the “unrest” in many countries is the fact that the governments do not have the funds to support many, if not most, of there social programs. (and national debt is not a concern, countries have been in debt since there inception) In America, we on average work for more years than most other places. I feel that the earlier retirement age of most other places is in direct correlation to the size of there economic distress. That is NOT to say we don't have our own debt issues. Because we do! If your not earning, you don't get taxed... as heavily! And the longer you are supported, even if only supplemented, with government aid the more the burden ways. I personally don't see that people as a whole have any “right” to retirement. It is a reward for service, hard work and planning. Notice, I did not say saving. If you save a million today and tomorrow it's worthless, you gain nothing!

To me it seems that society, as a whole, feels some sort of entitlement is due them. Far be it to earn anything! So often I have heard, “where is mine...” Where is your what!!! You don't just get something because you're alive.

As to the evil banks, They're just run by people trying to make money. And it's not for the bankers, but the share holders. Yes, the guys at the top get paid a lot of money, but I dare you to show me any business where turning a profit by the “guys” at the top are not rewarded monetarily. Do I think anyone is worth that much money... No! But, that's just the way it works. And if anyone thinks that revolting, rioting, in the streets is going to get you what you want, then go for it! Let me know how that works for you.

I see the real problem being the people. If you don't like the banks, don't use them. It works! Just a few weeks ago Bank of America was going to start charging a five dollar a month fee for debit cards. A petition was started and signed by lots of Bank of America patrons and the charge idea was shot down. To effect change your voice has to be heard. They have to know that you have other options. And, will use them. And people have to be united in a cause. It also helps to hit them where it hurts, the wallet. And stop feeling as though you're being mistreated in some way. Because you are, and you are letting them do it!

No system is perfect. All we can do is work the ones we got. And fix them if we can. But whose to say what “fixed” is?

I apologize, Wesli, but as you are the last one to post on the topic, it is your post that I will pick apart. Please don't take it personally.

First, you said "I am well aware of the fact that the global market is far from perfect. But, these are the pains that come with growth. And, the current banking system is far from new or current."

There are several things contradictory here. First, I do not believe that these are growing pains. Rather, if anything, they are dying pangs. Statistically, the vast majority of the worlds denizens are worse off than they have been in the past. The central banking systems in the countries where this is the case reflect this. A good microcosm of this fact is the current chaos with the European Union. Its very existence as a political entity is in danger in very large part due to the overall crappy situation economically and financially with several of its member countries. And as the banking system IS far from new, these systemic flaws should have been corrected over time, right? but they werent. if anything, they have been amplified.

Next, you say "And if anyone thinks that revolting, rioting, in the streets is going to get you what you want, then go for it! Let me know how that works for you." However, you follow this not two paras later with "A petition was started and signed by lots of Bank of America patrons... To effect change your voice has to be heard. They have to know that you have other options. And, will use them."

The latter sentiment is correct. People DO have a voice. But lately, it has been violently suppressed in many places. The first one that comes to mind as it is recent and on stunning video is the 'casually pepper spraying cop' on UC Berkely campus who doused a row of students PEACEFULLY PROTESTING and SITTING in weapons grade pepper spray. On their own campus. That they pay to be on.

If you do your homework, you will find that this is the more the norm in most places there have been larger demonstrations. Other than an incident in Oakland that caused some property damage, there has been no rioting in the streets. One of the central tenets of the occupy movement is non violent dissent. Much like with Ghandi in India, and MLK for civil rights movement, it has been shown that over time, that method gets results. The citizenry as a whole gets tired of reading about/seeing such blatant hypocrisy, violence and brutality, and change is effected.

a lot of people stopped using banks. on nov 5, a 'bank transfer day' was planned. if you had an account at a bank, you should have transferred it to your local credit union, or, failing that, a small local bank. thousands did so. i was already a credit union member or i would have too.

my final point, as it is early, i am tired and i have rambled enough is this. you post "And stop feeling as though you're being mistreated in some way. Because you are, and you are letting them do it!"

yes, we as a country are being mistreated, and egregiously so. but, no we are not letting them do it. we are doing all we can to see that this bs comes to end. i am a not a downtrodden mass, i am proud. i am not beaten, i am a fighter. i am part of a movement that intends to try to fix this broken system, so that it is not passed on to our (and your) children. and that is all i can do. if i fail, i will remain proud, as i did my best to fix it. if i did nothing, and allowed it to perpetuate when i could have done 'something' (however small), i could not look my son in the eye when he asks me, years from now, why the world is as messed up and unbalanced as it is, and why didnt i and my generation try to fix it.

I am glad Revan Vos said many of the things he did. I was curious as to how what I posted would be taken. I was afraid that there was too much on the political side.

It seems that we agree something needs to be done and that it has to start with us. We seem to disagree as to how to effect change. I have been around a while and seam many peaceful demonstrations. Yes the get the cause recognized, but good do they affect? And, often they do not end peacefully and that does not bode well for the cause, any cause.

I was trying to suggest getting their attention where they will notice it the most, their wallets. And to do so where there was not a large “mob” setting around to have the attention focused on. Because any time there is something to focus on beside the issue, they will! The individual can be silenced, but an idea can grow beyond the person.

And when I said that you are letting them mistreat you; it is only because I mean just that. When one feels strongly about a thing he tends to fight for it. And the one that fights the smartest wins. Be angry and discussing topics on a board is NOT going to effect change. Only action will, and there are just too many that lack the courage of their convictions. I’m sorry if I offend, but that is the way I see it.

No, you didnt offend me. after all that i have been through, that is hard to do.

and i will not pick apart your post again, mainly because, as you stated, we agree more than we disagree. and i know no one likes to have their words dissected.

the only thing i will say is yes, i agree again that being angry and posting on a board is not going to get anything done. that is far from all that is occurring in even my little branch of occupy. if you would like, you can check out our web page at http://occupyhuntsville.org/ . i guess it could serve as a introduction to some of the workings of a particular part of the movement. granted, we are not a typical branch, but hey, whatever, ya know?

"You sharpen the human appetite to the point where it can split atoms with its desire; you build egos the size of cathedrals; fiber-optically connect the world to every eager impulse; grease even the dullest dreams with these dollar-green, gold-plated fantasies, until every human becomes an aspiring emperor, becomes his own God... and where can you go from there?"
- John Milton (The Devil's Advocate).

My main problem with the bankers is when they screwed up in 2008 we had to pay for it. That was a bad year for me and my family and we lost everything because a few white shoe boys got careless and made some bad bets and we ended up paying for it while they got millions of dollars in bonuses. they play with numbers all day and get huge sums of money while the working man breaks his back all day and just gets enough to barley sustain himself, and if your just going to tell yourself well that's how the world works and not make an effort to change anything then that is very sad and pathetic.