The mother of all sins...

Who nurtured us? Who educated us? Who taught us to talk? Are we not the solution to the sum of predecessor before us, yet also a part of the equation of things to come?

Independence simply does not exist!

If anything does exist, it is a web of relationships. All of us are involved in an infinite web of dependent relationships, ones that cannot be completely analyzed because of their infinity.

Infact the ‘I’ does not even exist at least not in the sense of a singularity. Each one of us has an infinity of selves based on each others relationships with someone else. One man can have a father self based on his relationships with his child, a husband self, a friend self, a work self... . We still however like to think of ourselves as unified. May be it has to do with the basic need for self preservation each one of feels, without realising that we do so by preserving the needs of our other selves. May be this is why religion (system, beliefs, organized, person, worship, practices) which binds together is so important for mankind.

“The monstrous self is the source of all evil.”- Kirk, says quite rightly that it is the self that believes it is independent of others is the mother of all sins.

!! A good topic! I see each person as a sum of their facets. No person is just what you know them as, and most people do not know what is in their heart of hearts.


Though, I do believe that each person DOES have a heart of hearts, a self that they are within themselves that only they know. With careful thought, meditation, and truthful reflections, I believe that a person can eventually find it.

I believe independence does exist ONCE we strip away all the outer personas.

A web of relationships, I concur, would take a million million lifetimes to analyse. But maybe it is a good topic for meditation?

Perhaps a conundrum of interconnectiveness exists; being understood in terms of relationships it might imply seperate entities interacting relative to each other. Perhaps then the 'I' is a relationship in itself! With the mind actually being the experience of the relationship between subconscious, conscious and environmental inputs. If the Force is an energy, then the concept of seperate entities could perhaps be understood to be like wave crests on the ocean.... whilst they are connected and of the same material, the crests exist as only seperate points at the altitude of the crests. Perhaps like the ocean, there is a lot of swirling going on in most of the waves... wheras some of the waves are perfectly formed and hold their shape, and its these which are the most powerful.

I agree that religion provides a core set of beliefs that are generally displayed as a part of all of our personas. I do not believe it will ever be possible to have only one self because you cannot control how others perceive you. You could honestly and truly be the most righteous man in all of history but you know that someone will think you are fake or any number of possible alternatives. Then you also have the issue of "echoes", where one person's image of you is stored inside another's mind and is possibly changed a little. This is why concerning yourself with what others think of you is equivalent to trapping yourself in a cage; you are no longer able to do or say anything because someone may interpret it differently than you meant it. As for your "heart of hearts", you are right Sana we all have this and I do not believe that we can ever truly display everything that is in it because we all have those thoughts that if a specific someone knew of it would cause pain or anger. Though I do believe in honesty, I also believe that there are some things better left unsaid.

I, and my many facets

are similar to

the force and it's many faces...

I am still me...

the force still is...

I try to be the best me, in every facet I can be...

In physics we learn that all things are made up from the stuff expelled by the "Big Bang" and that not only the stars and planets, but all living things are made from this "stuff". It is also understood that nothing goes away but it just changes form. (i.e. wood when burned becomes smoke and ash and if the process were reversed wood is the result)

So...if the " I ", the selfish, arrogant, egotistical, " I " is the mother of all sins, I would have to agree. All humans are of one blood passed down from the first 2 humans. (There has to be a beginning with just 2 right? Adam and Eve or just the first 2 slimy fish that slithered from the ocean. Or was it a couple of monkeys just walking upright?):silly:

Humans of white pigmentation are from areas of the earth that have cooler climates and dark pigmentation from hotter climates. Each group has adapted to the earth due to climate and ecostructure that they settled into. Lets see...we all have red blood. Check. We all have the same body parts. Check. Basically all humans are the same except for geographical evolutionary changes for survival of the fittest. So what can be the difference?

EGO! The idea that we are separate from one another and that I should have more than you!That I should be held to a different standard than you! That I am better in any way than you!

NOT! You implies Me. There can not be one without the other. If there were no me, than what would you be called?

The Force knows only one consciousness, the collective us!

Having fun with this topic. :lol:

Phortis Nespin wrote: (i.e. wood when burned becomes smoke and ash and if the process were reversed wood is the result)

I know what you mean, and logically this would make sense, but sense it is not yet possible, we cannot state this as a certainity...

If, we are all just star stuff... still projecting outward from the bang, then as splatters of paint get less, and loose mass as they expand from the center of a paint splatter...

Would it not also make sense that it is possible to lose parts of mass as well?

To say:

It is also understood that nothing goes away but it just changes form.

Would be one of those "rules" discussed in that other thread...

(yes, I too am having fun... I love discussion...)

I think the 'stuff' is energy isnt it? Its in different arrangments and each arrangement represents its characteristics in relationship with other arrangments of energy. The universe is supposed to have a set mass, but the universe is only the known mass to begin with... I mean if its not known then it doesnt exist insofar as any quantative measure. Since mass itself is a measure of energy, then we might consider mass is either going to go exist in 3 states, decreasing complexity, stable complexity or increasing complexity. So I'd imagine if it is decreasing complexity it must be moving away from other mass as direct interactions will increase its complexity.

All that seems to support a deterministic nature but the transformations are not 2 dimensional and so its hard to fathom determinism in light of such complex potentiality. So is our mind then the energy of the brain or as a result of energy in the brain! It might be that infinite is a very suitable word.

You are on the right track... look up phi

The Force knows only one consciousness, the collective us! I just think that is wonderful, and may help explane the force to the formally religious. nicely put. the Force does habe a certain intelligence.