the nature of the \"darkside\"

this thread is simply my thoughts on what the \"darkside\" really is.

some think the force itself has a darkside and a lightside. as for me, i (as well as many others) believe that the force is neither dark nor light, it simply is the force and the dark or light exhists only in the heart/soul of the one who wields it.

the light can be seen everytime one helps another, but sometimes one is only helping another because it serves thier own purpose, this isn't necessarily a \"dark\" thing unless it intentionally brings harm at any point.

the dark can be seen everytime one fights with another, but sometimes one only fights because it's necessary to help others.

light/dark for many is simply a matter of perspective. what is light for one may be dark for another and vice-versa.

one that has fallen into the darkest depths of human nature is not beyond redemption, however they can only be pulled from the darkness if they desire it, they cannot be forced out or they may sink even deeper.

often one that falls can find thier own way out, provided they haven't fallen far. those that have fallen too far need much more to find thier way out. they need a life changing event, desire to change, and the strength of spirit to make the change. this in itself is incredibly difficult to achieve, however if they have a strong enough support group that group can act as thier strength.

it takes great strength to resist the \"darkside\" and stay in the \"light\", it takes a different kind of strength to turn from the \"darkside\" and resist after having felt its effects and the ease with which it flows.

when you rely upon the \"darkness\" you condemn yourself to self destruction. you get quick easy power...at a steep price, often it damages the body and always corrupts the soul.

when yoda said \"once you start down the dark path, forever will it control your destiny\" he was very right.

if you start down that path and don't change it dominates your destiny
if you start down that path and turn from it, it still dominates your destiny because you will always remember and you will constantly make decisions based on that in an effort to avoid taking that path again.

There are discussions of this in the forum under the 'The Dark Side' section

However - it is widely known that the moment you think darkside - yodas spirit rises behind you and you find with glowing green eyes and a saber right up your anyway ... (that should appease the roleplayers)

Many of our members agree that 'the darkside' and indeed 'the lightside' dont exist.

WTF

OK - the force is the force - it has nor takes sides - think of it like water or even fire - it treats everyone the same and can be utilised to certain degrees but mess with it and it messes with you (but always wins)

It has no colour, shade or form - it just is.

However - my way of explaining the 'sides' is simply (in terms of humans and behaviour) is what we do/say etc to others.

The motives for our words or actions to be more precise - because there are times when one must commit 'dark' deeds for 'light' ends, war is a good example of this - on the flip side - its possible to have a light deed with an entirely dark intention - flattery is one example of this.

If (and im using the real world terms here not the fictional starwars) one thinks ALL 'Sith' are dark n bad - your very much mistaken - likewise - not all jedi are 'good n light' - the point is we are all human and we are all brothers n sisters within the force - in fact - I doubt any two jedi or sith have identical thoughts/opinions on everything relating to 'the force' and this is what makes us individual.

It is part of training to learn or discover oneself, ones own perspective of the force and where we are with it.

It maybe a biblical saying (and im no fan of Christianity) but I do believe in the quote 'do unto others as youd have others do unto you' - that way - none of us can go far wrong - or in other words - what goes around - comes around

The force will just be there whatever we do and whatever happens

Only my thoughts (in simple terms)

MTFBWY - A

exactly

perspective and intentions are the only things that determine whether it's \"light\" or \"dark\"

what each individual has to determine for themselves is \"what side of my human nature am i acting in?\", \"am i acting in a manner harmful to myself and/or other?\", \"am i acting in a manner beneficial to myself and/or others?\"

but - here is a thought - is being 'selfless' in fact also being 'selfish' ?

Is it also possible to be too 'selfless' (aka 'White Knight' syndrome) ?

MTFBWY - A

in my view yep...if your only being selfless to feel that sense of helping, or of being of value then it is simply another form of selfishness.

there's nothing wrong with wanting to feel of value, we all do at some time. it's when we let that desire overwhelm us and control our actions that we enter the realm of being selfish

Is this mentality that the force has neither a light nor dark side a \"shadow\" philosophy?
The whole \"intent with which it is being used\" is a sort of Unifying Force Theory and do we even subscribe to this? Personally I agree with it, but make that known in any Force believing community and watch them chase you off...I do not believe in sitting on the fence and neither do I believe this stance to doing so, I simply think that (and to risk sounding Palpatine-ish) that when we intend to study something that the grand scale of things needs to be taken into account. For example....To put a philosophical spin on this, did the \"dark side\" of The Force create us to pseudo-separate us (as in make us individual parts of the whole instead of as one cohesive form)from The Force to torture us? I could be totally off base but it's something to wrap your noodle around. How can something so all-inclusive be divided itself? Again I agree, One Force, and (if you haven't read my journal entry titled \"Lightsaber Meditation\") Many Facets.

Your response is in someways self answering - THIS site(as in TOTJO) allows a large amount of freedom of the individual in terms of their jediism - we dont tell or enforce a 'the force is xyz and if you dont agree - goodbye'

We often use the term 'unifying force' - but I feel maybe some of these things are basically because as a temple - we dont follow the force in the same way as the 'fictional' jedi did/do (and the way in which many other sites and temples do)

As a side note - there are other threads dotted about here relating to 'grey' or 'shadow' 9again - some feel they are the same and others it is different) but here too - isnt 'grey' just another 'shade' or colour - what about red, green, blue etc etc etc jedi - there are an infinite number of shades of colour - and as many colours as there are people - and the 'colour of the force' is perhaps the end result of all the shades combined (akin to light being a mix of the colour spectrum)

In other words - if you feel the force has no sides (or colour) then isnt grey/shadow a pointless exercise?

Please dont forget that I only expressed MY opinion - NOT the overall policy of TOTJO - again - we (the temple) have a huge mix of 'type' of jedi - we exercise and promote tolerance as well as self exploration and discovery - to dictate 'thou shalt believe and do xyz' would be utter hypocrisy.

As for the 'did the darkside make us' - if you mean in a biblical 'genesis' or creation manner - I dont believe the force 'made' us as such - not in an intentional intelligence manner - but I feel everything in the universe is 'linked' to the force or has the force as a part of it - earth and life onit is (to me) a fluke of nature (ie our distance from the sun, the right elements and circumstances)

This is why I am certain that somewhere in the universe there is another planet with life on it much like ours - im not saying there will be humans on it - but something similar.

MTFBWY - A

Oh I totally agree with you Master Kana, The illustration of the dark side creating us was meant to show how absurd it sounds to place a spiteful nature to The Force, by allowing it to be personified as both a light and dark thing, entity, etc.

that's how i see it, it would be like saying fire is dark for the destruction it can do, or light for the warmth it gives. fire is simply fire, it can destroy or bring warmth but it requires something to guide it..


personally i'm waiting for the lizard men to come visit us :laugh:

I believe that all things have both light and dark aspects--human beings do, fire does, trees do... the capacity for creation and destruction are equal. So why can't it be the same for the Force? Fire consumes, but it's also the basis for all of human progress (helping us to gain knowledge). In and of itself, it is neither light nor dark; yet it retains the aspects of both.

In my belief, it's not so much that the Force isn't singular, but rather that the Force has the same dual nature that we ourselves have. We can draw from the Light Side (warmth, protection, creation and knowledge), or from the Dark Side (greed, oppression, destruction and fear). These are all possible from the Force, and it is our ethic which determines the desirability of these things.

I disagree. I think the Force is a tool. It is only light or dark according to how the user weilds it. The Force as an entity by itself is neither light nor dark.

So, the hammer you hold in your hand to build is merely a tool, and not a living thing.

It still has a dual nature: it can be used for creation (building a house, driving stakes into packed Earth for a tent, etc.) or it can be used as a weapon. One is the Light Side; the other is the Dark Side.

I also see the Force as more than a tool, more of a living thing with its own will, as well as the capacity for interaction. It is not something to simply be wielded, but something to be worked with, communed with... like taming a wild animal, the relationship that we have can be positive or negative, Light or Dark.

My claims don't make it so, nor do yours: neither of us can be correct or incorrect, since there isn't yet something which is demonstrably true of either Light or Dark.

But so long as we decry the idea that it cannot be Light or Dark, we disclaim the capacity for choice (the justification for this claim is a LONG argument, if you're up to it). In failure to choose, the choice is made for us.

Fire is a tool, but it's still technically alive. Oxen are tools, and they are alive.

Is your Force alive or inanimate?

I agree that the Force is sentient, but can do nothing on its own, so what we use if for, is what makes Light or Dark. The Force is in everything, but it is static until used by its weilder. In order for something to happen in the Universe, a something has to react with the Force.

At the risk of getting into a \"Schroedinger's Cat\" argument, what makes you believe this to be the case?

I believe that because i have not yet pictured it in my mind as any other way. Perhaps if a hammer that was laying on the ground, and through no external forces other than itself, jumped up and bashed somebody in the head, then I would reconsider my earlier statement.

You have a strange idea about what is or isn't alive... I view the Force more in the sense of its being an energy field, like fire.

Fire is energized gas. It is alive, in that it undergoes birth, death, and interaction. It consumes wood. It destroys and creates. It seeks to expand itself.

Are we any more or less alive?

In my minds eye I see the Force as dots or balls. When I see a tree for example, i envision it made up of subatomic sized dots or balls, that I call tthe Force. To me only when the Force has to react to something does it become alive, in that it destroys or creates, or changes into something else.

So... the Force is a chemical reaction, rather than an energetic one?

I think of it as \"dormant\" energy until it is forced to react.

stop me (and correct me please if i am wrong) but it seems as though, Jedi Bael, that you are sort of stating that instead of a Living Force, it's more of a just Reactive Force.

Am I wrong in this assumption? Not a sentient Force with an ultimate will, but something that just exists such as an atom, that goes about it's way until something comes along and stirs it up?