Idea

i don't feel that a personal attack is necessary DK, he has the right to purpose his idea if you agree with it or not - sure it could have been presented in a better manor

i get the message that you feel that changes in the temple should be mainly by the members - i feel that by attacking whomever posted the forum that you are disgorging members from posting possible complaints or ideas

I'm not entering the forum with a side or public opinion about the original post - mainly because i was not around during the occurrences that have brought this up . I'm only showing that i think it was uncalled for to make who ever posted the idea a bad guy

I was neither attacking the purveyor of this writing, nor attempting to make him look like a bad guy. I simply meant I expect a lapse of judgement from an apprentice, it happens, its how people learn. However, I was stating that I expected more out of him because I know who his master is and that his master would have had trained him atleast to not be afraid of ridicule, apparent by the annonymity of the post.

No attack was intended, trust me, its more obvious when I do something like that.

DK

i apologize for my misunderstanding

and would like to add that i meant no disrespect to you - in my short time here i have grown to respect you as not only a voice of reason but also as someone who speaks what they believe to be true

thank you for acknowledging my concern

Why he did what he did I understand after talking to him. I see where he was coming from, but like most of us made a mistake. I can say that this person is a friend and brother, and I apologize to him for calling him a coward.

No appology is need, Master Azrel.

Awww MAN! I have just gotten over being really sick, and after a long day of mowing my yard and spending time with the family, I had just whipped myself up a margarita, preparing to come here and relax a bit. And I see this. I hate that.

Oh well. Not that big of a deal.

As was stated before, the \"recent happenings\" in question are absolutely, and 100% OVER! Of course, any discussions are welcome, but I don't like seeing forgotten things get stirred up again. It's borderline trolling, and will not be tolerated!

Since I feel that the member in question has acted out of genuine concern, no disciplinary action will be taken. Thank you all for keeping calm for the most part.

Mr. Anonymous, I can see your point. Perhaps it would solve a few problems. But in doing so, it would create others. If we shut the door on the 5th Rite, and alienate them, it would not only alienate some of our beloved members, it would also serve to strengthen the views of many outsiders..... That old opinion where the Jedi and Sith are enemies and cannot work together, and therefore cannot belong at the same Temple without things flying around, lightsabers being activated, and people being cut in half, some disappearing into the thin air, some not, yadda, yadda, yadda. Many members feel that our connection to Star Wars by our usage of the word \"Jedi\" in our religion is is pejorative. If we eliminate the 5th Rite altogether, in a great \"Sith Purge\" so to speak, it will look like we recognize the Sith as enemies, or as a hindrance to our religion, though the 5th rite is an integral part of it. The same as all other rites.

There is no rite that is better than the other. It seems that the 5th Rite often gets picked on, but that is due to misunderstanding.

It isn't our Rite that makes us Jedi.

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

I was neither attacking the purveyor of this writing, nor attempting to make him look like a bad guy. I simply meant I expect a lapse of judgement from an apprentice, it happens, its how people learn.

Sorry to bring this topic back up, and to cut your quote short there, but...

[rant]

I'm of the understanding that everybody makes mistakes, regardless of rank applied to them by any organization. And while I'm sure you didn't mean it, it's a bit bothersome that so many people assume that we apprentices are not only the only ones making mistakes, but also more-or-less \"unworthy\" of both dealing with \"complex\" temple issues, or even being able to \"understand\" things that are going on.

From what I've seen, the majority of individuals who actually thought the whole thing was complete pointless insanity were - surprise - THE APPRENTICES. And I'm sorry, but I find it a bit backward that the students are keeping a calmer mind, despite being constantly told to have \"patience\" and to \"keep your mind in the present\" when they actually ask what's going on. These responses, of course, are purely being used as excuses to say \"This is Big People discussion, you're not important enough to be involved.\"

And yes, this is going to break a few rules as a Jedi, but I need to say it: That's bulls**t.

If something occurs that is a personal matter and shouldn't involve us, fine. Talk directly to the people involved, have them talk to each other, and keep it away from us - don't even bring it up in passing around anyone except those involved. But if it involves the Temple as a whole, the organization of Rites and other such things, then I do believe that we should all be involved.

Masters, Knights, AND Apprentices.

(And possibly Initiates.)

I don't give a crap about the whole 5ith issue. I'm just sick of Apprentices being thought of as \"barely even Jedi.\"

I know some of you don't like the Star Wars references, but Yoda himself suggested that we should think like children. And no offense to my fellow Students of the Force, but wouldn't Apprentices and Initiates be close enough? We're already learning the basics, and we can easily recognize the things we're learning, regarding the Jedi and Harmony, how we should be working as one, and... I was of the understanding that Jedi take on Apprentices in the first place to keep learning - to keep the teachings fresh in their mind, and to learn from the Apprentice's new outlooks on the teachings.

I'm sorry, but I'm tired of being treated as a \"low-level\" Jedi, when truly none of us are supposed to be seen as \"lower\" than anyone else.

As it's been said - we're all Jedi. And we're all seeking enlightenment, no?

So tell me, how is a Master who could simply have been on the site about six or so months be more enlightened than, say, an Initiate with 30+ years experience in mythology, philosophy, psychology, literature, and science?

(Neither are me, I'm just giving an example.)

It could easily be simply an issue of \"prove it\" - but how long does that go on for, and how much is suggested as \"proof\"? Would it require fifteen various essays on different aspects of one's learning? Would it require 30+ years of teaching here for the Initiate to be seen as a Master?

I know that's a bit of an exaggeration, but I'd just like to have a straight answer for a change, instead of being told \"Patience, young one!\" Because I can be patient as hell when I'm not being left out cold in the dark. At that point, it's not issue of patience, but being (for lack of a better analogy) frozen to death.

[/rant]

Sorry for the tangent, too. I'm just tired of not knowing what the hell is going on. We're supposed to be about knowledge, right?

Its not untrue when it is said you get as much out of something as you put into it. This is as much true for knowing what is going on as it is for knowledge, a relationship etc. Some people want everything served to them on a plate and thats not the case.

Also don`t forget that the Masters here were also apprentices, who had to wait out in the \"cold\" and also have university degrees. It has also been repeated till we`ve become blue in the face that the Masters are few, and even if we`re working hard to work with the Force we are also not supermen/women. Can you imagine how many demands rain in every day saying I want a Master now? Can you imagine how much patience is required to answer the same questions day after day? Well the message is patience.

People like the Masters have voluntarily and kindly taken on duties to help get this place going. Can you imagine what results there would be if you were trying to get something done and had a hundred different opinions on how to do it? Well you wouldn`t get very far.

Training is a part of our Temple existance here, no matter if you had 10 Phds. If someone has problems with that then they should try the Universal Christian Church and with a bit of cash they can buy themselves a ministry.

I must agree with you, Xiam, although I haven't seen much of it that goes without an excuse.

Jon wrote:

Its not untrue when it is said you get as much out of something as you put into it. This is as much true for knowing what is going on as it is for knowledge, a relationship etc. Some people want everything served to them on a plate and thats not the case.

Also don`t forget that the Masters here were also apprentices, who had to wait out in the \"cold\" and also have university degrees. It has also been repeated till we`ve become blue in the face that the Masters are few, and even if we`re working hard to work with the Force we are also not supermen/women. Can you imagine how many demands rain in every day saying I want a Master now? Can you imagine how much patience is required to answer the same questions day after day? Well the message is patience.

People like the Masters have voluntarily and kindly taken on duties to help get this place going. Can you imagine what results there would be if you were trying to get something done and had a hundred different opinions on how to do it? Well you wouldn`t get very far.

Training is a part of our Temple existance here, no matter if you had 10 Phds. If someone has problems with that then they should try the Universal Christian Church and with a bit of cash they can buy themselves a ministry.

Well, I agree with you there.

But, it's not really an issue of being served things on a platter. I mean... yes, those who came before us had to stumble around in the dark, but there's a reason for teaching, is there not?

Once someone's gone stumbling around, and actually find a torch or a flashlight, it's their duty not to call out into the dark and shout simply \"GOOD LUCK!\" or \"I FOUND THE WAY OUT - NOW IT'S YOUR TURN,\" or even a more helpful \"FOLLOW THE SOUND OF MY VOICE!\"

No, at that point what they need to do is go to where the others are, hand them the torch or flashlight, and give them a nudge in the right direction. They don't need to be led all the way there - it would be admirable, but facts give knowledge and experience gives wisdom - but knowing what direction to go in, and what lies ahead of you, is a very good thing to have. And though it may have not been a luxury for those who went first, they should make their marks by offering light for the others to follow their footsteps.

It really shouldn't be a \"I suffered to get where I am, so should you!\" issue. I would rather think of it from a scientific approach - rather than rediscover old territory, it's good to become familiar with the old territory, then venture into the places nobody has ever been.

I could easily argue the Sith being a perfect example - once you understand the basics of Jedi principles (self-control, concentration, etc.), you can then venture into the darker territories that require that self-control and concentration to apply your knowledge in a more active way. I'm not sure if this occurred in the aforementioned \"Way of Discovery\" science usually takes it, but it certainly works on a smaller scale for an individual, and it may have worked that way for the first Dark Jedi within Star Wars itself.

Sorry for bringing up the dreaded Unmentionable Series, but was a necessary mention.