A Dark Fourth of July

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11 Jul 2022 15:04 #369274 by Rex
Replied by Rex on topic A Dark Fourth of July
Even then, that story is less about the actual act and more about disobedience

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11 Jul 2022 15:07 #369275 by Br. John
Replied by Br. John on topic A Dark Fourth of July
A single cell is alive but it's not a person. I see many did not read: ABORTION: IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE BOTH “PRO-LIFE” AND “PRO-CHOICE”? – BY CARL SAGAN AND ANN DRUYAN - proedward.dailyview.tw/society/on-aborti...rl-sagan-ann-druyan/ .

Even if that clump of cells is a person it does not have the right to use a woman's body against her will. You can't be forced to donate blood to save someone's life. See: spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm .

How is anyone claiming the right to decide this issue for anyone except themselves?

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11 Jul 2022 18:20 #369280 by Br. John
Replied by Br. John on topic A Dark Fourth of July

Edan wrote: Can someone explain to me however a decision like Roe vs Wade can just be overturned? Surely the decision is the decision? Other court cases aren't just overturned randomly, why those with political implications?


A short answer:

The US Supreme Court can overrule it's own previous decisions if a new case is appealed to it. It's been done before. This is the first time it's been done to eliminate a right. All the other cases were to grant or expand a right.

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11 Jul 2022 18:51 #369281 by Rex
Replied by Rex on topic A Dark Fourth of July
There have been other ones. Quite a few relating to 4th/5th amendments, and Miller v California comes to mind in broadening the ability to prosecute obscenity.
But this is the biggest and most visible one by far

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12 Jul 2022 05:02 #369292 by ren
Replied by ren on topic A Dark Fourth of July

Diana W wrote: ... and I dare say ... you consider yourself a "jedi" ... council member at that.

That in itself pisses me off with your dismissive lack of information


I am well informed, thank you.

River wrote:

ren wrote: That being said the pro choice camp ought to choose something other than 'my body' as an argument. It is repulsive.


Could you elaborate on this?


Everything you do, you do with your body. Everything your body can do isn't legal.

That in itself makes it a rubbish argument.

Additionally anyone who can spend 5 minutes looking at history knows that the legality of abortion neither prevents nor encourages abortions. The principle of 'its going to happen anyway, there's nothing we can do about it, we may as well do it right' is a winner because it is an undeniable fact backed by a lot of evidence.

The vast majority of abortions will allow good families to be created, or save existing families from destruction. Then in a minority of cases you'll get the 10 year old who got raped etc.

If you are faced with a group who oppose it on moral grounds, find out where the limits are.

If you present arguments like 'do you want your wife/mother/ daughter to die and leave you to look after her kids' or 'Do you want to be a victim of paternity fraud' or 'Do you want your husband to leave and never come back because you got drunk one night and now you're carrying someone else's twins',

you will find that your oponents' view of right and wrong isn't quite as clear cut as you thought it was. Then it's up to your camp to also admit that the needs of a 10 year old rape victim are dramatically different to those of someone who wants to go on holiday instead of giving birth in 3 weeks time.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.
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12 Jul 2022 21:47 #369309 by Br. John
Replied by Br. John on topic A Dark Fourth of July

ren wrote:

Diana W wrote: ... and I dare say ... you consider yourself a "jedi" ... council member at that.

That in itself pisses me off with your dismissive lack of information


I am well informed, thank you.

River wrote:

ren wrote: That being said the pro choice camp ought to choose something other than 'my body' as an argument. It is repulsive.


Could you elaborate on this?


Everything you do, you do with your body. Everything your body can do isn't legal.

That in itself makes it a rubbish argument.

Additionally anyone who can spend 5 minutes looking at history knows that the legality of abortion neither prevents nor encourages abortions. The principle of 'its going to happen anyway, there's nothing we can do about it, we may as well do it right' is a winner because it is an undeniable fact backed by a lot of evidence.

The vast majority of abortions will allow good families to be created, or save existing families from destruction. Then in a minority of cases you'll get the 10 year old who got raped etc.

If you are faced with a group who oppose it on moral grounds, find out where the limits are.

If you present arguments like 'do you want your wife/mother/ daughter to die and leave you to look after her kids' or 'Do you want to be a victim of paternity fraud' or 'Do you want your husband to leave and never come back because you got drunk one night and now you're carrying someone else's twins',

you will find that your oponents' view of right and wrong isn't quite as clear cut as you thought it was. Then it's up to your camp to also admit that the needs of a 10 year old rape victim are dramatically different to those of someone who wants to go on holiday instead of giving birth in 3 weeks time.


How do you negotiate with people who believe that a single cell is a person? How do you negotiate with fanatics that say if it's saving the woman or the "baby" then the woman should die since she's here to bear children and that's part of the job?

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19 Jul 2022 03:12 #369401 by ren
Replied by ren on topic A Dark Fourth of July
One step at a time. An argument opposite to a conviction will only reinforce the conviction.

There is a middle ground. Despite benefitting from it myself, I would not recommend an early abortion. Heck I've seen how a woman reacts to a very early miscarriage of an unwanted pregnancy and it isn't with joy. Some late term abortions are outright barbaric. If you want the pro-life fundamentalists to agree to anything with the 'its my body' fundamentalists, you may as well tell them they are the spawn of satan and it's a good thing they don't reproduce. More abortions = less Liberal satan worshippers.

You could try facts. Most abortions are not artificially induced, they are naturally occurring and subcategorised as miscarriages.

It is perfectly normal, and in fact preferable for a pregnancy to fail if certain conditions are not met, ranging from the mother's fitness to carry to the quality and successful development of the embryo.

When these conditions are not met yet the mother fails to miscarry as she should, her reproductive system is defective and requires medical treatment.

Any half arsed politician can bang out protection for abortion on medical ground. Even the taliban could allow it on economic grounds.





And of course if that fails shoot them with their own guns.

Had a wet dream = murderer
Wank to completion = murderer
Miscarriage = satan worshipper
Everytime an ovum is discarded without fertilisation = christ didn't die for your sins because you aren't even human.

Etc

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.

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