Locking threads is Bllsht

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15 Nov 2019 06:27 - 15 Nov 2019 06:30 #345606 by Carlos.Martinez3

Malicious wrote: Can you actually speak fluent Klingon ? I only know a few fraises from watching next generation and Voyager .





www.bing.com/search?q=klingon+translator...411B2&FORM=QBLH&sp=3

“chaq raD“

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The Block
Build, not tear down.
Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova
Last edit: 15 Nov 2019 06:30 by Carlos.Martinez3.

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15 Nov 2019 08:47 #345608 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Locking threads is Bllsht

Tellahane wrote:

ren wrote: The members, in particular clergy and knights, are the people who should defuse these situations, not mods.

The incessant 'run to the mods' culture was started by people who wanted 'change', their own vision of it specifically...
and is without a single doubt responsible for our current state of affairs being so similar to a broken family where the mother, father, and kids think there is such a think as outsmarting one's family, and worse, that they are somewhat right in attempting to.


Isn't the word moderator mean to moderate...

mod·er·a·tor
/ˈmädəˌrādər/
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
an arbitrator or mediator.
"Egypt managed to assert its role as a regional moderator"
2.
a person who moderates an Internet forum or online discussion.

Seems like the most appropriate person to go to.


Perhaps ren is suggesting all Knights and Clergy get mod powers :side: :woohoo:

But seriously, I agree and think the disconnect between ren's requirement for mods and the strong coupling between perceived need and contemporary literal definition of that role duty.... doesn't help.

A name change of the role would probably help - to better reflect what ren wants them to do. And then importantly, propogate that thru updated site information.

But given the chance I would have always sided with change (over stagnation).... but all I saw was ppl trying to make things run better given the pressures of limited site access and volunteering part time. And a bit of sniping from those detached from the difficulties of trying to help :pinch:

Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
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15 Nov 2019 11:47 #345611 by Kobos
Replied by Kobos on topic Locking threads is Bllsht

Fyxe wrote: Kobos, no actually you did not, well at least in any way that I ever saw. Maybe a PM would work better? Also I never used any bad language or ever used any direct insult that was not first used against me? I have seen other people use ** and nothing happened and gist has called me a liar about a 100 times. So honestly can I ask, are you keeping favorites or have I misunderstood something? I just want to correct this and if I consistency is the real problem here why is that my violation?


I think the warning in that message was clear. However, if you missed it that is fine, we can continue conversation in our private conversations because I do believe there is a way to solve the disconnect. Also, as I have said you ave some good ideas but articulation is vital when trying to explain them and that is a learned skill. I look forward to our conversations and the further conversations you can bring to the boards. But we got to get to a level where others understand you too.

Much Love,
Kobos

Fighting what you cannot see, will only lead you to lash out with violence towards everyone. Know your enemy, and you may find yourself a friend.

You can act real rude and totally removed
And I can act like an imbecile- Men without hats

Training Masters: Carlos.Martinez3 and JLSpinner
TB:Nakis
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15 Nov 2019 13:32 #345612 by Kelrax Lorcken

Fyxe wrote: A shovel? Was my honest question that is straightforward also misunderstood? Am I speaking Klingon in a star wars universe or what?


-beleaguered sigh-

You know what? You're not my problem, man. Dig away.

Kelrax "Stormcaller" Lorcken, Jedi Navigator
May The Force Guide You
www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/47-Jo...-stormcaller?start=0
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15 Nov 2019 15:43 #345615 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic Locking threads is Bllsht
Locking a thread is like freezing a Hans Solo in carbonite. You might be hoping that people would steer clear but I think the opposite effect happens. Because now its kind of on display and people might want to see why it got locked. This puts the conflict on display before it can be resolved.

Perhaps, we expect too much from moderators. I think we expect them to mediate and not simply take punitive action or react to conflict by trying to pour ice water on it. It's possible that it may work sometimes. But its also possible that the people involved will continue to harbor animosity towards that other person and it will come out in thread after thread after thread. So perhaps there should a moderation team and also a mediation team. I'd even volunteer for that, but I think the problem is that either mediators need to have special authority or be members of higher rank so that people understand and recognize when "official" mediation is taking place. It would be nice if all knights were mediators but how many knights hang around any more than mods?
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15 Nov 2019 16:25 #345616 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic Locking threads is Bllsht

Fyxe wrote: Thank you Kobos, you know what they say about assumptoins like the one Rex freely admitted he made, assuming my post was not in good faith, and this lead to the attacks. I would think long term members woujld know better but apparently not.

Fyxe: What? what formal warning? I never said he did anything "wrong", I said he and others attacked me. Are you saying your formally warning me now? for what?


I like you. I've seen what can happen to people I like so I want you to listen to me when I say this, because its coming from nothing but love and respect.

You have a tendency to get too defensive. It's something I hope you'll work on during your Jedi path. And understand, I'm not excusing anyone. I've even seen some comments in this thread that I interpreted as provoking towards you and I saw that you didn't really take the bait. And that's good. And I'm going to point that out too.

Part of being a Jedi here is that you're not alone. You're part of a community. And yes you are a new and valued member even if everyone doesn't, isn't, and will ever value you the same as others. They don't have to and it's not a requirement. But still... there is a community and so some people are going to see your side of things even if not everyone does. So you don't need to try to right every wrong or perceive everything as an intended slight. Ask questions. Ask for clarification. And yes, click on the links people are giving you.

Sometimes we need to read a post more than once. I use a lot of words in my posts mainly because I need enough context to be there so that people read once and understand me. When you said:

"Thank you Kobos, you know what they say about assumptoins like the one Rex freely admitted he made, assuming my post was not in good faith, and this lead to the attacks. I would think long term members woujld know better but apparently not."


It looked like you were taking a shot at Rex here when I think you were intending to show how one person who was involved was offering something in support of your position and the misunderstanding that followed. But when you use a name like this... a personal reference... then you have to be careful about what you say after that because it could all be perceived to apply to that same person as the only "subject" and pronoun that was mentioned.

I THINK you were saying (and I could be wrong) that it was the ASSUMPTION of "bad faith" that lead to the attacks which is probably accurate. If you had said it differently I think people would have had a better response. Because like I said... and I almost face palmed when I first read this, you could be understood.

It would have been better if you said "Thanks Kobos. I also appreciate what Rex said. My earlier post wasn't in bad faith but people assumed that it was which led to what I took as personal attacks."

This makes it clear. But when you pile on with "you know what they say about assumptions", and talking about how people are long term members and they should know better it does kind of muddy the waters. Long time members should know better. I don't disagree. However, show me the teachings or content that they are in violation of. There is nothing that says you cannot get frustrated ever or that you have to be like Jesus. You and I both have an ideal in mind when it comes to being a Jedi and there's nothing wrong with that. But even if we would like to see that ideal become more tied into what Jediism is about, everyone doesn't feel the same way and you cannot use that ideal as a standard by which to judge. Otherwise, people are going to tell you they don't think you're a good fit here. Having ideals is good. Everyone should have them but everyone may not share the same ones or have the same Jedi image in mind for the path they are personally on. So if you throw shade at people over that then no one can take your side really if someone throws shade at you for not knowing that locked threads are still viewable.

Now... NO ONE SHOULD SAY "and because you didn't know that you're lazy". That's not right either. Just because one person is right doesn't mean you get to detail what personal traits or qualities you think the other person might have for being wrong. And if you do it to someone, someone will do it to you. You know what they say about the sword. Live by the sword, die by the sword. And so it is hypocritical to call this out if you're also guilty of the same thing. (See what I just did there?) And if both sides are guilty then it is difficult to defend one side. If everyone is slinging mud then all people will see in the end is that everyone is muddy and there's mud on everyone's hands. They wont remember or care who started it the same way you do or I would.

So instead of everyone pointing out errors and offenses just like you want to point out errors and offenses, its better if we simply acknowledge that errors and offenses were made without dissecting the mud on each individual's hands. And once you get hit with a good ball of mud you might lose the unbiased perspective from which people can most easily learn from or be corrected by. So understand, at that point, even if you're right, you might need someone else, from your COMMUNITY, to see your point and say the things best left for others to say. And yes, it may be wise to consult a mod the way Rex did. That way, its not one person, but at least two people using their combined but individual perspectives to come to a rational decision. Rex was correct in seeking outside counsel to possibly contradict his own bias. There was nothing wrong with that.

Next time, please utilize the mods to help you rather than trying to respond to provocation with anger or frustration. Or step away, maybe go outside, take a series of deep long breaths, and then come back and think about how you can make yourself better understood. Because we can all only control ourselves, not other people. And so that's why, especially when it comes to ToS, you are responsible for the things you say and no one else will be blamed for it. Again, I'm ONLY saying this in love and respect, hoping that we haven't scared you away.
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15 Nov 2019 16:34 #345617 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic Locking threads is Bllsht
I also think it is valuable to mention that a lot of conflicts like these are going to happen because we allow so many ways of being a Jedi that ideas will inevitably collide and clash. And while you can blame the person for not being so open to everyone else's views of Jediism, it would also be helpful if there was a common "law", regardless of ideology, for how we should treat each other. I respect Kobos a lot for how he has moderated during his tenure. I really think he's done a great job, but it makes that job more difficult when there are only TOS violations and not really lesser offenses based on a shared ideology for how Jedi should conduct themselves, both publicly and towards each other. Obviously ToS is not something we could ever use or consult in real life because real life doesn't happen on a forum. So just something to consider.
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15 Nov 2019 16:38 #345619 by Kelrax Lorcken
I myself don't disagree with locking threads, per se, but it does seem like there's no clear guideline on when to apply it. Literally shutting down the conversation seems more extreme in some situations than others, and in this case it did seem like it escalated quicker than was appropriate, in this case because it happened rather shortly after the actual warning.

Moderator judgment and critical thinking aren't the problem, nor the locking itself, but that when it's appropriate to go that far- if I'm creating a public disturbance, designated peacekeepers are expected to deal with the situation, and work towards deescalation. Just because I don't immediately stop doesn't mean they can jump straight to "Bros, begin your tasing!"; there's sort of a chain of escalation, and I think in this case, while each further step down line decreases the likelihood of deescalation, proper chance to do so at step one didn't really happen.

I mean, it seems to me that if we have fairly clear guides for when suspension and banning are applied, shouldn't the same be applied to this? At least an outline on procedure, rather than "just use good judgment"?

If I'm wrong or mistaken in any of this, by all means, say so, but this is my perspective at this time- not that it was wrong, but that it was... premature.

Kelrax "Stormcaller" Lorcken, Jedi Navigator
May The Force Guide You
www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/47-Jo...-stormcaller?start=0
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15 Nov 2019 16:42 #345620 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic Locking threads is Bllsht

Kelrax Lorcken wrote: I myself don't disagree with locking threads, per se, but it does seem like there's no clear guideline on when to apply it. Literally shutting down the conversation seems more extreme in some situations than others, and in this case it did seem like it escalated quicker than was appropriate, in this case because it happened rather shortly after the actual warning.

Moderator judgment and critical thinking aren't the problem, nor the locking itself, but that when it's appropriate to go that far- if I'm creating a public disturbance, designated peacekeepers are expected to deal with the situation, and work towards deescalation. Just because I don't immediately stop doesn't mean they can jump straight to "Bros, begin your tasing!"; there's sort of a chain of escalation, and I think in this case, while each further step down line decreases the likelihood of deescalation, proper chance to do so at step one didn't really happen.

I mean, it seems to me that if we have fairly clear guides for when suspension and banning are applied, shouldn't the same be applied to this? At least an outline on procedure, rather than "just use good judgment"?

If I'm wrong or mistaken in any of this, by all means, say so, but this is my perspective at this time- not that it was wrong, but that it was... premature.


You're not wrong, but some people post with a higher frequency than others and if those people all get together at the same time then a disagreement may go from 0 to 60 before a moderator even notices a conversation is taking place. And there's no icon next to a thread to indicate tension levels (that'd be one hell of a plugin). So it's often up to people participating to notify mods and if that happens too late then that opportunity to deescalate... well... may have already been missed.
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15 Nov 2019 17:43 #345623 by Brick
Replied by Brick on topic Locking threads is Bllsht
I think (?) I can speak for everyone with 'mod power' when I say that locking a thread is usually an absolute last resort.

The last thing we want to do is stifle debate or be seen to be censoring anyone. There are a number of issues at play:

1. As ZealotX said, sometimes a lot of things can be posted in a thread in quick succession which means that a lot of damage can be done (and the opportunity for descelation lost) before we even know things are getting heated.

2. There aren't many of us. Whilst there are a number of members with 'mod powers' the only 'official' moderators in that particular thread were myself and Kobos. So that's 2 people to moderate a website which is in use 24/7. Fortunately, Kobos and I live in different time zones so we can do an OK job of covering the basis most of the time. For example, when things got heated in that particular thread, it was 1am in my timezone and I was fast asleep. There was no way I could've stepped in to moderate or take action. Fortunately Kobos was here.

However, there are still several hours a day where neither of could be active. We also do this voluntarily, so even when we're awake we still have full time jobs and social lives which impact our ability to react to threads at the drop of a hat.

3. We're only human. We have to follow our instincts a lot on what we think is OK and what is not, and when we think it's possible to cool things down and when maybe it's just best to lock the thread and let everyone take a breather. We're never going to get it right all the time. We do the best we can, when we can. And that's it.

We can only learn from things like this moving forward.

I understand a lot of people's argument that we should just let things play out, but 1. If there is a clear breach of ToS then we do have to step in, and 2. If the argument has completely derailed the topic of a thread and there is no longer anything being posted which actually contributes to the debate, is it always worth letting things play out for the sake of it? (that's a genuine question BTW, I don't have an answer for it). I understand that locking a thread just causes the issue to spill out to another thread, but at least that new thread is actually dedicated to the issue at hand, and the genuine discussion which occurred in the original thread is then somewhat kept 'intact'. If that makes sense?

I don't know. I'm going to stop rambling now

Apprentice to Maitre Chevalier Jedi Alexandre Orion

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'The only contest any of us should be engaged in is with ourselves, to be better than yesterday'

- Knight Senan
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