The Empire Strikes Back

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03 Jun 2019 15:55 #339176 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic The Empire Strikes Back

Kobos wrote: I just want to point out one thing a wise man once said about this argument. The fear of the American Empire as you explain it is real and I can sympathize with it because it is real. But, you are looking at the shadow. Dewey, (whom I am not a huge fan of philosophically but got some observations right.) stated the government is just the shadow cast upon society by business. This has proven true over and over again, regardless of political leaning. It was this way in the 1800's is still this way now.

Bernie was rich before hand just not as much. Look into his wife's handling of her presidency of the Jr. College she ran, left a soiled taste for them in my mouth.

I ask you to consider this deeply because it is not just one, but many view points that are needed to look for tyranny. Tyranny takes many forms, it is when an undivided citizenry recognizes tyranny that it can be eliminated. Tyranny has no political views, is not interested in laws, people, or ideology. It's only interest itself and it's future the rest are only tools by which it takes hold.

Just somethings to consider when we discuss political view points. There are often many sides of the same story, but seldom different endings.

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos


I agree with the observation about it being a shadow. I think that's part of the reason why we have to be careful. If the shadow being cast is in the form of a dove then yay we are all okay. But if the shadow starts looking like something else... The source of the shadow is worse.

I would love to say that business interests were currently running the government. I mean... at this point that would seem like the lesser evil. But business interests run contrary to trade wars and tariffs. These policies exists because the administration is more interested in staying in power and it needs the votes of the base to accomplish that. It's the Southern Strategy to an extreme without real guidance from conservative values. The administration has no real values of its own. Not even money because Trump loves debt as long as he can borrow more. And so the tax cuts were loved by corporations but now they're cursing because they have to pay tariffs.

Now, maybe in some twisted way these tariffs could pay down the debt or pay for infrastructure or something positive but that's if it doesn't bleed companies dry and if Trump is even thinking about complex economic policy.

And yes, what I'm concerned about (far more than Bernie actually having money) is not the actual policies of conservatives but this deeper darker pain and fear that is being called forth from the right. It goes beyond party and all these other surface things and seeks to tap into people's survival instinct. And on that level they may not care so much if kids are locked in cages, Puerto Rico is abandoned, Muslims are banned, women have no right to choose, gay rights are revoked, attempts at equal opportunities in education are stifled, civil rights progress reversed, clean air standards causing regulations revoked, etc. etc. I think these are the kinds of things that people fear and see as part of America's decline. And it would make "America Great Again" if significant blows could be made against these things. Thus the "empire" striking back.
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03 Jun 2019 16:43 - 03 Jun 2019 16:51 #339181 by Kobos
Replied by Kobos on topic The Empire Strikes Back

ZealotX wrote: I agree with the observation about it being a shadow. I think that's part of the reason why we have to be careful. If the shadow being cast is in the form of a dove then yay we are all okay. But if the shadow starts looking like something else... The source of the shadow is worse.

Just a point for consideration with this sentence, I am not attacking you but if you read this with no inherient bias, does this not make sense? My legs may cast a shadow that makes people think I am a giant. A candles flicker in front of the plants in my home may reflect a marching army on the wall but this does not make it so.

I would love to say that business interests were currently running the government. I mean... at this point that would seem like the lesser evil. But business interests run contrary to trade wars and tariffs. These policies exists because the administration is more interested in staying in power and it needs the votes of the base to accomplish that. It's the Southern Strategy to an extreme without real guidance from conservative values. The administration has no real values of its own. Not even money because Trump loves debt as long as he can borrow more. And so the tax cuts were loved by corporations but now they're cursing because they have to pay tariffs.

Business always runs governments as they control allocation resources. In the modern world in the face of other international interests it comes down to where they are located. That in itself is a type of war. This makes the tariffs and tax cuts much more reasonable though still questionable. No administration has ever had values of it's own besides the 1st iteration of the republic in ancient times same can be said morally. I ask you to for a second step away from your political affiliation even from your values for a second at look at your statement about the Southern Strategy, which side doesn't use this exact strategy to the same extreme?

Now, maybe in some twisted way these tariffs could pay down the debt or pay for infrastructure or something positive but that's if it doesn't bleed companies dry and if Trump is even thinking about complex economic policy.

You place to much power in a man's image in this case. There are people far smarter than Trump running the Economy and they do not answer to him.

And yes, what I'm concerned about (far more than Bernie actually having money) is not the actual policies of conservatives but this deeper darker pain and fear that is being called forth from the right. It goes beyond party and all these other surface things and seeks to tap into people's survival instinct. And on that level they may not care so much if kids are locked in cages, Puerto Rico is abandoned, Muslims are banned, women have no right to choose, gay rights are revoked, attempts at equal opportunities in education are stifled, civil rights progress reversed, clean air standards causing regulations revoked, etc. etc. I think these are the kinds of things that people fear and see as part of America's decline. And it would make "America Great Again" if significant blows could be made against these things. Thus the "empire" striking back

There are many things to fear listed in this statement. It does indeed seem as if things are built now to be full of much hazard, pain and suffering. I do not think it has tapped into people's survival instinct, quite opposite, it has heightened their emotional response. I agree that these things need to be dealt decisive and effective blows, that is what will make them significant. However, I have seen few blows that would be effective planned let alone thrown.
For example of an emotionless fix. Make Puerto Rico a state, and allow for federal funding. I would assert that we are pre-old republic collapse, Palpatine has not revealed himself yet and I could not guess which side of the isle he will be on. They are all really greasy.


I submit this all with great respect, mostly because I do not disagree with you on many of these major broad issues, however, I would say you are quick to paint it black and white here. This as it is, is the first step to the zealotry you fear, the side from which it comes will matter little to the empire. Now I do not know your perspective, I am not you, we have a different set of experiences, but we agree on many things.

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos

Fighting what you cannot see, will only lead you to lash out with violence towards everyone. Know your enemy, and you may find yourself a friend.

You can act real rude and totally removed
And I can act like an imbecile- Men without hats

TM:JLSpinner
TB:Nakis
Last edit: 03 Jun 2019 16:51 by Kobos.

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03 Jun 2019 17:20 #339182 by Uzima Moto
Replied by Uzima Moto on topic The Empire Strikes Back

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Uzima Moto wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: LMAO.. I have one thing to say about this idea of the "all powerful City State of DC".

Legalized Marijuana based on STATE authority, not federal....


... And DC still has the power to block it. It's called selective enforcement. It still assumes the federal has supreme jurisdiction. Though there is nothing constitutional about drug prohibition... So, yeah.. still an empire.. and us citizens are still subjects of it.. otherwise, it would be a non-issue..



I find it funny that you cite the Constitution in your reply to make your point about drug enforcement and then just assert that we are subjects of an empire when that very same document you used as proof of your point also states that the USA is not an empire but a democratic republic! Cherry picking.


Other than the 14th amendment, Congress doesn't have a say in the everyday actions of The People. The Constitution wasn't written with that intent in mind. It's not cherry picking, it's the law. The Constitution clearly defines the US as a Federal Republic. The States, party to the Union and its Constitution. Not the general population..

Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem
By the sword we seek peace, but peace only under liberty.
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03 Jun 2019 19:38 #339189 by Kyrin Wyldstar

Uzima Moto wrote:
Other than the 14th amendment, Congress doesn't have a say in the everyday actions of The People. The Constitution wasn't written with that intent in mind. It's not cherry picking, it's the law. The Constitution clearly defines the US as a Federal Republic. The States, party to the Union and its Constitution. Not the general population..



Actually that's exactly why the constitution was written. The United States Constitution which is the foundation of the federal government sets out the boundaries of federal law, which consists of acts of Congress, treaties ratified by the Senate, regulations promulgated by the executive branch, and case law originating from the federal judiciary. The United States Code is the official compilation and codification of general and permanent federal statutory law. Federal laws, so long as they are in accordance with the Constitution, preempt conflicting state and territorial laws in the 50 states and in the territories.

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03 Jun 2019 19:40 #339190 by Kyrin Wyldstar

ZealotX wrote:
You persist in trying to be literal with everything but the dictionary disagrees
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/organism

organism noun
or·​gan·​ism | \ ˈȯr-gə-ˌni-zəm \
Definition of organism
1 : a complex structure of interdependent and subordinate elements whose relations and properties are largely determined by their function in the whole
the nation is not merely the sum of individual citizens at any given time, but it is a living organism, a mystical body … of which the individual is an ephemeral part
— Joseph Rossi
2 : an individual constituted to carry on the activities of life by means of parts or organs more or less separate in function but mutually dependent : a living being
a multicellular organism

p.s. - you don't need to disagree with everything I say to keep the debate going.



Sorry but Mirriam got it wrong

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organism

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03 Jun 2019 19:46 - 03 Jun 2019 19:48 #339191 by Kyrin Wyldstar

ZealotX wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Not much time today so will have to reply more detail later but I leave these thoughts for the weekend. I have never said being an empire is a bad thing or an evil thing or a derogatory thing. I have no prejudice to the term. I have also stated that the reason I define the US as a republic is because that's the way it was defined when founded. I've said the US engaged in empiric activity at times as well, but still it's not an empire. The political turmoil in the country is proof enough of that. An empire would not tolerate such things. So in the end the US is many things, so I will concede that could be callex an empire if you will concede that it can also be called a republic.


I never said it couldn't be called a republic. I don't see these terms as either or so I think we can agree on that aspect of this discussion-which is good because its hard to debate HOW something is doing something (i.e striking back) if others cannot consider it to even be that thing that is doing something.

And just to reiterate... the Galactic Senate in Star Wars was also a republic, correct? Hence "Knight of the Old Republic".



and a bunch of other stuff....



Ok then I shall call it a republic and you can call it an empire. Yes the Star Wars universe was a republic that transformed into an empire. It was never both at the same time though. The rest of your post here seems to not be a critique of the United States as an empire but a rant of your dissatisfaction with President Trump. I don't care to go into all the particulars of what you have posted here. Needless to say I disagree with most of them. And no this does not make me an ill informed slacker that is licking the boot heel of my most charismatic master. I think you have slanted much of what you said in opinion and not fact. However if you care to break any of these points down and have a fact based conversation about them I would be more than glad to take you up on that.

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03 Jun 2019 21:41 #339201 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic The Empire Strikes Back

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

ZealotX wrote:
You persist in trying to be literal with everything but the dictionary disagrees
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/organism

organism noun
or·​gan·​ism | \ ˈȯr-gə-ˌni-zəm \
Definition of organism
1 : a complex structure of interdependent and subordinate elements whose relations and properties are largely determined by their function in the whole
the nation is not merely the sum of individual citizens at any given time, but it is a living organism, a mystical body … of which the individual is an ephemeral part
— Joseph Rossi
2 : an individual constituted to carry on the activities of life by means of parts or organs more or less separate in function but mutually dependent : a living being
a multicellular organism

p.s. - you don't need to disagree with everything I say to keep the debate going.



Sorry but Mirriam got it wrong

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organism


You're citing Wikipedia against Webster???

I don't know what to say about that one.
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04 Jun 2019 13:06 #339223 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic The Empire Strikes Back

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Ok then I shall call it a republic and you can call it an empire. Yes the Star Wars universe was a republic that transformed into an empire. It was never both at the same time though. The rest of your post here seems to not be a critique of the United States as an empire but a rant of your dissatisfaction with President Trump. I don't care to go into all the particulars of what you have posted here. Needless to say I disagree with most of them. And no this does not make me an ill informed slacker that is licking the boot heel of my most charismatic master. I think you have slanted much of what you said in opinion and not fact. However if you care to break any of these points down and have a fact based conversation about them I would be more than glad to take you up on that.


This is what I've been waiting for. It is the fairest critique of my position. Can it be an empire and a republic at the same time?

Okay, let's get into that.

So in SW it is fair to say that no one "called it an empire" before Palpatine made the declaration in the Senate. This happened only after he gathered enough power, as the duly elected chancellor. So it's not like some foreign power took over the Republic. It simply emerged from within. That means the potential was there the whole time. So this is point number 1 on this issue; the fact that the "empire", in name, only emerged once Palpatine had already solidified enough power LEGALLY and through influence, in order to make the conversion against the wishes of any dissenting views. And the majority went right along with it because their vote/representation had already been subverted. Do you see where I'm going?

Secondly, the army for Empire was already in the works in order to defeat the threat that was cooked up to push the Republic "more" (imo) into this imperialistic direction. The "false flag" threat was illegal but the reaction was given LEGAL approval. Therefore, when Order 66 happened it wasn't something that was created post declaration but was there before.

Thirdly, the plan for the empire was obviously a work in progress well before the declaration. It is your position, Kyrin, that the declaration marks the inception. It is my position that the declaration itself is merely a means to create an emperor, not a means to create an empire. The empire was already created. It just wasn't NAMED. Palpatine didn't build a galactic alliance. He simply took it over, choosing the seat which had the most power. The body of the giant was already in place. He simply needed to become the head. Without the head it was still representative of the entire Galaxy. Without this one person calling the shots it still would have at least the funding to pay for the pre-ordered troops. And it still had legislative control over all the worlds in the Galaxy that it represented. If it didn't then Palpatine wouldn't have had the same interest in converting it into an Empire and for him to do that simply by saying "Empire" means that all the real work for that to happen had already been done.

What say you? Agree or disagree?

So yes, I'm suggesting that the Galactic Republic was ALSO an "empire in denial" because of its size and power. That power attracted the Sith who only needed to rule the existing body, not build his own army with his own funds and conquer the galaxy planet by planet. It was essentially already conquered through military or diplomatic means.

It is the same with the US. It is the reason why the U.N. is in New York rather than Africa or Europe or China. Even if the U.S. doesn't hold the head seat in the U.N. it doesn't need to. It's influence is greater than the head of the U.N. You know this. I know this. The U.S. acts unilaterally whenever it wants to. And even Trump talks about how heavy handed the U.S. has been globally. So IF.... someone like Palpatine... not "Donald Trump".... but someone else... Let's say Snoke Jr. IF someone like that wanted a global empire what country would they be attracted to or what country would be the central focus of their plans? If not the US?

And if, and this is speculation, the "plans" are already in works, and different agendas already exist for how to use the US, and if the real power is business/financial as others may have suggested, and if there are people kind of "ruling from the shadows", then I ask you in all honesty.... if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck...

WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE WHAT YOU CALL IT??

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04 Jun 2019 13:13 #339224 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic The Empire Strikes Back

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Uzima Moto wrote:
Other than the 14th amendment, Congress doesn't have a say in the everyday actions of The People. The Constitution wasn't written with that intent in mind. It's not cherry picking, it's the law. The Constitution clearly defines the US as a Federal Republic. The States, party to the Union and its Constitution. Not the general population..



Actually that's exactly why the constitution was written. The United States Constitution which is the foundation of the federal government sets out the boundaries of federal law, which consists of acts of Congress, treaties ratified by the Senate, regulations promulgated by the executive branch, and case law originating from the federal judiciary. The United States Code is the official compilation and codification of general and permanent federal statutory law. Federal laws, so long as they are in accordance with the Constitution, preempt conflicting state and territorial laws in the 50 states and in the territories.


I would say you're both technically right. The Constitution was created to limit state's rights and provide for common security and laws, that effect states which in turn effect the people. However, depending on how you define "everyday actions" I would say no, that's much more so the jurisdiction of the states. We don't have federal police, federal firemen, etc.
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04 Jun 2019 17:00 - 04 Jun 2019 17:07 #339241 by Kyrin Wyldstar

ZealotX wrote:
Thirdly, the plan for the empire was obviously a work in progress well before the declaration. It is your position, Kyrin, that the declaration marks the inception. It is my position that the declaration itself is merely a means to create an emperor, not a means to create an empire. The empire was already created. It just wasn't NAMED. Palpatine didn't build a galactic alliance. He simply took it over, choosing the seat which had the most power. The body of the giant was already in place. He simply needed to become the head. Without the head it was still representative of the entire Galaxy. Without this one person calling the shots it still would have at least the funding to pay for the pre-ordered troops. And it still had legislative control over all the worlds in the Galaxy that it represented. If it didn't then Palpatine wouldn't have had the same interest in converting it into an Empire and for him to do that simply by saying "Empire" means that all the real work for that to happen had already been done.

What say you? Agree or disagree?



LOL I would disagree. If I didnt we would not have much to talk about! :P
No he did not build a galactic alliance, that was already built. The troops were not payed for by the alliance. In fact its never been said who actually paid for the clone army but several books suggest it was actually paid for by the Sith. So in that context that army was actually an invading army, just not an overtly invading army. This was the genus of the Sith plan. They instigated a civil war and then pitted the alliance separatists against the clone troops which destabilized the entire alliance. Once this was done the clone army was turned against the rest of the republic and brought them under control as well. In effect they were a trojan horse that waltzed right into the heart of the republic.

During this time the alliance govt was still in effect but the emergency powers granted the chancellor allowed him to bring this clone army in. Once that was done and he seized power by their force he declared himself an emperor and then proceeded to dismantle the alliance govt and get rid of the representatives and in their place installed regional governors all loyal to him. So no the functional govt under the alliance looked nothing like the final empire. All this work to convert it was done after the declaration and it was backed up by the secret covert building and invasion of the clone army. Palpatine did not legally seize power. He only legally gained emergency powers. But his invading army and declaration of an empire were illegal.

As for the UN it only makes sense that its headquartered in New York since the US started the organization at the end of WWII. It was designed to be a body in which all nations join and govern international peace and security so that no empire like the Nazis could ever be created again. And of course the US acts unilaterally at points in time as its prerogative but it is done through a legislative process, not the order of an emperor. The US also has its own military under the authority of that same legislative body and even though the command in chief is the president it is also not a body loyal to the president as the clone army was. Unlawful orders will not be followed by our military as is their standing basic tenet.

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