The Empire Strikes Back

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30 May 2019 22:37 #339095 by Uzima Moto
Replied by Uzima Moto on topic The Empire Strikes Back

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: LMAO.. I have one thing to say about this idea of the "all powerful City State of DC".

Legalized Marijuana based on STATE authority, not federal....


... And DC still has the power to block it. It's called selective enforcement. It still assumes the federal has supreme jurisdiction. Though there is nothing constitutional about drug prohibition... So, yeah.. still an empire.. and us citizens are still subjects of it.. otherwise, it would be a non-issue..

Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem
By the sword we seek peace, but peace only under liberty.
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31 May 2019 18:08 #339112 by Kyrin Wyldstar

Uzima Moto wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: LMAO.. I have one thing to say about this idea of the "all powerful City State of DC".

Legalized Marijuana based on STATE authority, not federal....


... And DC still has the power to block it. It's called selective enforcement. It still assumes the federal has supreme jurisdiction. Though there is nothing constitutional about drug prohibition... So, yeah.. still an empire.. and us citizens are still subjects of it.. otherwise, it would be a non-issue..



I find it funny that you cite the Constitution in your reply to make your point about drug enforcement and then just assert that we are subjects of an empire when that very same document you used as proof of your point also states that the USA is not an empire but a democratic republic! Cherry picking.

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01 Jun 2019 02:39 #339119 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic The Empire Strikes Back

Uzima Moto wrote: Oh, this is a fun topic..

I will say that the US government, for all intents and purposes, operates unequivocally as an empire. A democratic one, but an empire in all but name.. in this empire, you get to choose your emperor.

These United States of America no longer function as they were created. The FEDERAL REPUBLIC as designed (a confederate union of equally independent states ceding certain sovereign powers to a higher authority without ceding their overall sovereignty) has been centralized into a despotic democratic empire ruled by a sovereign "city-state" in the District of Columbia. Not in just a few ways, but in all.

Legally, Americans are nationals of DC(federal government) instead of of their States. The States existing as nations themselves since the Declaration of Independence. Exacting complete and total control over the citizens as individuals. Owning their lives, labor, and property. Through this, and other manipulation of the Constitution, DC has centralized all legal authority unto itself..

Economically, Americans are controlled by their "system of credit" and the Central Banksters that control it. A system which, once again, is centralized in DC and is actually said to be independent of it. The shareholders of this system own those who are indebted to it. This system, and the Multinationals attached to it, use the centralized "legal" authority to solidify their power. Keep others from challenging said power. While using that same power to steer the masses in favorable directions.. Hence, we are constantly lead to war..

Militarily? I mean, come on. Over 800 bases around the world. Literal moving air/naval bases deployed halfway across the world securing the rackets of the Multinationals. A Surveillance State that spies foriegn and domestic citizens without cause or warrant and claiming the security of the "state(empire)" as probable cause. The secret wars, domestic experimentation, advanced projects, assassinations, and secret coups.. the centralized control of the militaries of the Several States and the "right of the people to keep and bear arms".. all of which are unconstitutional.. all hallmarks of Imperialism..

Politically, a Union of two parties controlled by one party states. Each vying for ultimate power in DC, to vanquish the other.. at least as the spectacle is presented to us... In reality, these parties are beholden to the same interests and shareholders.. they may change certain aspects, but the core remains intact.. these parties are so entrenched they have actually BECOME the political system.. they serve themselves first, the platform second, the Constitution third if at all..

I could go on about those 3 instances alone. Not to mention the other imperial/despotic institutions that have formed in the US. From unlawful protection of Corporate Personhood to unlawful intrusion of natural persons..

America is an Empire in Denial..


THIS.... is SOOOOO what I'm getting at in this thread. Thank you. Very keen observation and very well said.

And let me, if I may, add to your efficient and powerful points.

When we get defensive about what America is OR WHAT WE ARE; whether one person uses the term "empire" or someone uses the term "racist"... It makes people not want to see themselves as that negative term such to the extent that they don't realize they're not personally being wrapped up or included in that term. The facts are the facts but feelings are very subjective and when people say "its not an empire because it doesn't call itself that" that's very "in my feelings". That's like saying "in my heart of hearts I know that America isn't an empire", which for me is kinda like saying "America never owned slaves".

What does it do for us to deny the facts? Because we're so desperate not to feel bad because of what the truth says about "our" country? And I put our in quotes, not to say it isn't ours, but to say that we didn't individually and singlehandedly devise this scheme. And because we didn't personally devise it we try to cover our eyes (not all of us) and pretend it doesn't exist while people on the opposite end of the spectrum maybe so sensitive to this that they fall for conspiracy theories that have become an industry that preys on fear and distrust of the government.

The people who distrust the government don't hate America, do they? No. They (in their own ways) want to "save" America. But any "salvation" becomes unsuccessful because they cannot convince the mainstream that there is a problem, or a big enough problem, to act and cannot prove their conspiracies to be true. They end up with little or no credibility like what happened to Glenn Beck. There is a strong sense of something being wrong, but most people just think it's corruption.

My issue with America being an empire in denial is that, like the Galactic Senate in SW, the reigns can very easily be taken by an even more corrupt individual who will operate the democratic republic in ways we did not previously think were even possible. People on the right were criticizing Obama as if he were acting like a king. And then they elected Trump who acted like he was a king way before he was ever elected. Royalty are held in high regard, not just because of their extreme wealth and land ownership, but personality. The side in power may not feel it but the other side feels like we're slipping more towards some kind of monarchy where, yes absolutely, you get to "pick" your monarch.

But again, I use pick in quotes because the game has become so much about money that those who already have it have an unfair advantage. Bernie wasn't rich. Hillary came from a perceived royalty because of the Clinton name. Again.... painting with a broad brush. It's not simply about what the dictionary says. I'm talking about behavior and how we perceive these things that words simply represent. What's the difference between a wealthy American and a British royal? How did "royals" become such a thing in the first place? How did they get their crowns? How did they get that kind of reverence? How did it get to the point that they are now simply born with it?

America is like a huge machine. We are the gears and the wealthy, the ruling class, are the operators. And when the wealthy can use their money to buy the vote indirectly (and please let's not pretend campaigns are a fair system) it seems like a system designed by them for this purpose. Maybe it's not. Maybe it didn't start that way. But every system can be hacked and therefore you must constantly and with caution and vigilance, guard and protect the system against attempts to undermine it and coopt it. We failed to do that a long time ago and money has taken over in ways that clearly advantage the wealthy. The US is a system we love, but nonetheless it is a system that can be used for evil depending on who we give "emergency" powers to. And when Trump flirted with using "emergency powers" to enact his own will on the border.... by then I wasn't surprised. I was almost expecting it. This is the danger of being an empire in denial. All that power... corrupted by one or by a handful of corrupt people.
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01 Jun 2019 02:42 #339120 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic The Empire Strikes Back

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Uzima Moto wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: LMAO.. I have one thing to say about this idea of the "all powerful City State of DC".

Legalized Marijuana based on STATE authority, not federal....


... And DC still has the power to block it. It's called selective enforcement. It still assumes the federal has supreme jurisdiction. Though there is nothing constitutional about drug prohibition... So, yeah.. still an empire.. and us citizens are still subjects of it.. otherwise, it would be a non-issue..



I find it funny that you cite the Constitution in your reply to make your point about drug enforcement and then just assert that we are subjects of an empire when that very same document you used as proof of your point also states that the USA is not an empire but a democratic republic! Cherry picking.



organisms cannot be defined by their origins.

organisms evolve.

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01 Jun 2019 03:08 #339121 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic The Empire Strikes Back

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

ZealotX wrote: That is just one type of fighting. Using troops is very overt. Using economics and politics is more covert. But if the effect is the same then what difference does it make what you call it? It simply is what it is.



Ahh so you dismiss mine and others definitions of empire so you can now covertly insert your own made up definition to prove your point. Sneaky but ultimately a fallacy. If we can call behaviour whatever we want in order to prove our point then I call the United States a "Multidimensional Organized Cluster of Micro-Force Components" all working towards the greatest good possible. Its obvious that this is what the US actually is! I mean just look at its military policies and diplomacy history. Its becomes pretty obvious at that point!

self explanatory mike drop...


Lol... first its "mic drop". You can't do that. You can't fail in the act of dropping the mic. That's just wrong.

Secondly, I apologize for not answering sooner. I was in a tornado and have to be selective in my responses for the time being.

thirdly, I do not have to dismiss anyone's definition in order to have my own or share the same view as others. You seem to dismiss the fact that others are out there who share this opinion, including academics which I already posted a link to. When we have differing opinions you can't simply change my mind by stating your opinion. Should I consider you to be more credible than myself or your mind more credible than my own mind? What makes your opinion superior? You need to prove that through intellectual examination, not simply stating your beliefs. And yes, it is a belief. You can call it a fact but this is a "fact in question". You're claiming it is an absolute. I'm saying it's relative. If you can't see it as something relative but rather an absolute which can never change by virtue of some strict measuring stick you're not going to fully see and appreciate why I'm saying its relative. The dictionary is not an absolute measuring stick because it, itself, is relative to the common usage among English speakers. If enough people said an empire can include E, F, G then the dictionary will update to reflect that view. I know. I've been using the dictionary in debates for a long time.

So the thing your argument is missing (whether you accept this or not) are strong reasons why the original/current definition/use of "empire" cannot be changed, expanded, modified, or used in another context. There's a TV show I'm sure you've heard of called "Empire". Trump would definitely consider himself as the head of a Trump "Empire". So the question is, do you see any reason why we cannot be fluid in our use of words? Don't we create new words and change or add definitions all the time? Language itself is in flux. My kids wont let me forget that.

www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Yeet

Now you can think America does the greatest good possible, but I would ask "for who?" Because you can call it whatever you want, but I judge by works. I don't always agree with the bible but there are certain things I definitely agree with as universal truths. For example:

Matthew 7:16-20 King James Version (KJV)
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

and if you don't like the bible then I give you William Shakespeare who, in his play Romeo & Juliet, spoke of names.

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

So I implore you, in defending America, don't get so caught up in the role of protector that you never smell America's farts. And yes I just said that. I love America too. In fact, I felt patriotic pride when a stranger stopped to help me clean my property up after the tornado hit. He just wanted to help. That is America too. That's the good part. So all I'm saying to you is PROTECT THE GOOD PARTS of America. But please don't be blind to the bad parts, nor to the potential for corruption or the abuse of power. I believe that it is more America to protect America from both foreign AND DOMESTIC threats. And domestic threats aren't just terrorists but people who would exploit our country for their own greed. But in order to defend America against that kind of threat we HAVE to question and examine America to root out the causes of these things so that we can FIX problems. How can you fix a problem you never admit is there and never go to the doctor check out?
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01 Jun 2019 14:59 #339124 by Kyrin Wyldstar

ZealotX wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Uzima Moto wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: LMAO.. I have one thing to say about this idea of the "all powerful City State of DC".

Legalized Marijuana based on STATE authority, not federal....


... And DC still has the power to block it. It's called selective enforcement. It still assumes the federal has supreme jurisdiction. Though there is nothing constitutional about drug prohibition... So, yeah.. still an empire.. and us citizens are still subjects of it.. otherwise, it would be a non-issue..



I find it funny that you cite the Constitution in your reply to make your point about drug enforcement and then just assert that we are subjects of an empire when that very same document you used as proof of your point also states that the USA is not an empire but a democratic republic! Cherry picking.



organisms cannot be defined by their origins.

organisms evolve.


The United States is not an "organism".

This guns for hire, even if we're just dancing in the dark.
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01 Jun 2019 15:32 #339125 by Kyrin Wyldstar
Not much time today so will have to reply more detail later but I leave these thoughts for the weekend. I have never said being an empire is a bad thing or an evil thing or a derogatory thing. I have no prejudice to the term. I have also stated that the reason I define the US as a republic is because that's the way it was defined when founded. I've said the US engaged in empiric activity at times as well, but still it's not an empire. The political turmoil in the country is proof enough of that. An empire would not tolerate such things. So in the end the US is many things, so I will concede that could be callex an empire if you will concede that it can also be called a republic.

This guns for hire, even if we're just dancing in the dark.
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03 Jun 2019 12:33 - 03 Jun 2019 12:49 #339170 by Kobos
Replied by Kobos on topic The Empire Strikes Back

ZealotX wrote: My issue with America being an empire in denial is that, like the Galactic Senate in SW, the reigns can very easily be taken by an even more corrupt individual who will operate the democratic republic in ways we did not previously think were even possible. People on the right were criticizing Obama as if he were acting like a king. And then they elected Trump who acted like he was a king way before he was ever elected. Royalty are held in high regard, not just because of their extreme wealth and land ownership, but personality. The side in power may not feel it but the other side feels like we're slipping more towards some kind of monarchy where, yes absolutely, you get to "pick" your monarch.

But again, I use pick in quotes because the game has become so much about money that those who already have it have an unfair advantage. Bernie wasn't rich. Hillary came from a perceived royalty because of the Clinton name. Again.... painting with a broad brush. It's not simply about what the dictionary says. I'm talking about behavior and how we perceive these things that words simply represent. What's the difference between a wealthy American and a British royal? How did "royals" become such a thing in the first place? How did they get their crowns? How did they get that kind of reverence? How did it get to the point that they are now simply born with it?

America is like a huge machine. We are the gears and the wealthy, the ruling class, are the operators. And when the wealthy can use their money to buy the vote indirectly (and please let's not pretend campaigns are a fair system) it seems like a system designed by them for this purpose. Maybe it's not. Maybe it didn't start that way. But every system can be hacked and therefore you must constantly and with caution and vigilance, guard and protect the system against attempts to undermine it and coopt it. We failed to do that a long time ago and money has taken over in ways that clearly advantage the wealthy. The US is a system we love, but nonetheless it is a system that can be used for evil depending on who we give "emergency" powers to. And when Trump flirted with using "emergency powers" to enact his own will on the border.... by then I wasn't surprised. I was almost expecting it. This is the danger of being an empire in denial. All that power... corrupted by one or by a handful of corrupt people.


I just want to point out one thing a wise man once said about this argument. The fear of the American Empire as you explain it is real and I can sympathize with it because it is real. But, you are looking at the shadow. Dewey, (whom I am not a huge fan of philosophically but got some observations right.) stated the government is just the shadow cast upon society by business. This has proven true over and over again, regardless of political leaning. It was this way in the 1800's is still this way now.

Bernie was rich before hand just not as much. Look into his wife's handling of her presidency of the Jr. College she ran, left a soiled taste for them in my mouth.

I ask you to consider this deeply because it is not just one, but many view points that are needed to look for tyranny. Tyranny takes many forms, it is when an undivided citizenry recognizes tyranny that it can be eliminated. Tyranny has no political views, is not interested in laws, people, or ideology. It's only interest itself and it's future the rest are only tools by which it takes hold.

Just somethings to consider when we discuss political view points. There are often many sides of the same story, but seldom different endings.

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos

Fighting what you cannot see, will only lead you to lash out with violence towards everyone. Know your enemy, and you may find yourself a friend.

You can act real rude and totally removed
And I can act like an imbecile- Men without hats

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Last edit: 03 Jun 2019 12:49 by Kobos.

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03 Jun 2019 13:21 #339173 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic The Empire Strikes Back

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

ZealotX wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Uzima Moto wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: LMAO.. I have one thing to say about this idea of the "all powerful City State of DC".

Legalized Marijuana based on STATE authority, not federal....


... And DC still has the power to block it. It's called selective enforcement. It still assumes the federal has supreme jurisdiction. Though there is nothing constitutional about drug prohibition... So, yeah.. still an empire.. and us citizens are still subjects of it.. otherwise, it would be a non-issue..



I find it funny that you cite the Constitution in your reply to make your point about drug enforcement and then just assert that we are subjects of an empire when that very same document you used as proof of your point also states that the USA is not an empire but a democratic republic! Cherry picking.



organisms cannot be defined by their origins.

organisms evolve.


The United States is not an "organism".


You persist in trying to be literal with everything but the dictionary disagrees
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/organism

organism noun
or·​gan·​ism | \ ˈȯr-gə-ˌni-zəm \
Definition of organism
1 : a complex structure of interdependent and subordinate elements whose relations and properties are largely determined by their function in the whole
the nation is not merely the sum of individual citizens at any given time, but it is a living organism, a mystical body … of which the individual is an ephemeral part
— Joseph Rossi
2 : an individual constituted to carry on the activities of life by means of parts or organs more or less separate in function but mutually dependent : a living being
a multicellular organism

p.s. - you don't need to disagree with everything I say to keep the debate going.

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03 Jun 2019 14:31 #339175 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic The Empire Strikes Back

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Not much time today so will have to reply more detail later but I leave these thoughts for the weekend. I have never said being an empire is a bad thing or an evil thing or a derogatory thing. I have no prejudice to the term. I have also stated that the reason I define the US as a republic is because that's the way it was defined when founded. I've said the US engaged in empiric activity at times as well, but still it's not an empire. The political turmoil in the country is proof enough of that. An empire would not tolerate such things. So in the end the US is many things, so I will concede that could be callex an empire if you will concede that it can also be called a republic.


I never said it couldn't be called a republic. I don't see these terms as either or so I think we can agree on that aspect of this discussion-which is good because its hard to debate HOW something is doing something (i.e striking back) if others cannot consider it to even be that thing that is doing something.

And just to reiterate... the Galactic Senate in Star Wars was also a republic, correct? Hence "Knight of the Old Republic".

In Episodes I-III part of the story was practically a How To guide in manipulating a Republic to the point that you simply flip a switch and its an empire because you deceive people into giving you the power. I'm not saying Trump is an emperor. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Is he making full use of his power? Yes. Is it flirting with the whole "emergency powers" thing? Not to the extent that Palpatine did or to the extent that he would do away with elections. I'm simply saying there exists a slippery slope that isn't obvious to the naked eye. I will say this. The Constitution of the United States is a brilliant document. Absolutely. And when you go through a disaster like I just did it is easy to see how good many of the American people are. And it is for their sake that we should be concerned. If you love America and what it stands for that means we should be vigilant no matter which party is in power. Because parties can be infiltrated, seduced, and taken over as well. And we can also talk about this too but I believe this has happened to the Republican party.

The American system of government has really great safeguards against the very thing I'm suggesting COULD happen. Again, the checks and balances... brilliant. However, Trump, who used to be a Democrat not very long ago, who doesn't seem to display conservative values or policies, but who appeals to the fear of the Republican base which is large enough to make other politicians fall in line, this guy who is so beloved even though he's actively screwing over the same people he conned into loving him, and who will undoubtedly argue against even this, he's very close to having the influence and power to pull off something similar to what Palpatine did.

I was surprised, honestly, with how the Republicans in Congress got in line. Especially Lindsey Graham. Amazing. And I don't fully disagree with conservative principles and values. But it's like Trump is basically able to get all this power by not having any definite principles or positions, but instead is willing to do whatever "people" want as a populist. And so he starts trade wars and imposes tariffs that hurt Americans but that make him look strong to a lot of people who don't understand the effects of all these policies. They just see him doing these bold moves that other presidents didn't make.

But when Trump started attacking the FBI and the courts people were starting to change their views. Those views equate to "political capital". As long as people are informed this keeps politicians from voting against the people's interests so much that we all lose. However, people's information generally comes from the media which Trump also attacked. At the same time Trump was giving credibility to Alex Jones who has sway over a lot of republican voters through a shared acceptance of conspiracy theories aimed at the elite. At first Trump attacked the elite and said he was going to drain the swamp. But after he got elected he said in a rally that he was one of the elite and of course he hasn't drained the swamp at all. He just filled it with weak people who would do whatever he wanted. And therefore all these positions that are supposed to be somewhat independent and autonomous are just extensions of Trump who is an extension of people like Miller and Bannon and Kushner. When level headed people who, may still be corrupt but not over the top, like Rex Tillerson, when they try to keep some sanity in their positions they get pushed out.

Basically, by staffing the Executive with incompetents and yes men, power is effectively pulled further into the hands of a small cabal. And when you can threaten Congress (who shouldn't be intimidated by the Executive branch because they are co-equal) you now effectively own 2/3 of the government. The ONLY thing really saving us right now from a total Trumpocracy is the Judicial branch. And Robert Mueller has basically said, yes he's guilty but Congress has to prosecute it in the political sphere, but couldn't say guilty without being unfair to someone who isn't even charged yet. And Trump even tried to push him out, lying about his people being a bunch of angry democrats.

So it's like Trump is building a "Death Star" with the power of the US but he can't get past the Judicial branch at least without tweaking things and hiding the intent of the policy like he did with executive order 13769 which was the "Muslim Ban". The thing is that its not necessarily a "conservative" idea to discriminate against a religion or racial or ethnic groups. However, those views do exist within the party to the extent that they have ways of hiding a certain agenda and talking about it publicly only through dog whistles.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

Let me be clear. Palpatine did a great job hiding his intent. So the lesson there is, if you want power for your own use, you can't tell people your plans. Second lesson is you need to make people afraid of something even if you have to engineer the danger yourself. Third, you pump money into the military and get more people into "patriotism" as a base of support. These same patriots will protect you and possible go against any attempt to wrestle the government out of your hands. And if you need to start a war or even just flirt with one or two people see you as strong and as protecting them. And as long as they feel that danger they will continue to give you power until eventually no one can oppose you.
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