How is rank about academics and not just a popularity contest?

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15 May 2019 21:08 #338496 by Ambert The Traveller
Hi. I apologize upfront for posting in this thread without having read the 100 entries that were added since I last caught up with it two weeks ago on page 5. I am sure it would very likely be a massive waste of time and I have so little of it these days.

Just wanted to share with you that there is a place where there is Peace, Knowledge, Serenity, Harmony and the Force. This place is everywhere, outside of us, around us, and inside us. We can find and experience it in us. It is always there.

It might not look very popular, though, this place. For the simple reason that many can't see it. As they are busy proofing they are academic. Or popular. Or both. Or whatever.

Spotting or celebrating such a place might even be academic. but it doesn't have to be. At least not in the way how many academics might see it.

Sometimes it makes sense to break the cycle, and to acknowledge that the solution might not be directly related to the problem. If it does not work, do something different. If it works, don't fix it.

So if you feel that you can't find such a place in this discussion, try and go outside. Get some fresh air. And think about how you could live your life, or about the IP, the code and doctrine, whatever. Or if there are any substantial and wise thoughts you are having, you could also write them your journal.

In case some find this post weird, out of context, unrelated, or just provocative, I'm sorry. It's just that I am trying to study here about the Force and can't stand the noise. And that might, somehow, even be a bit academic.

By the way if one really wants to get all academic about rank, one could also decide to spend a few hours on getting lost in another kind of reasoning: mathworld.wolfram.com/Rank.html

More of that stuff might even get you some popularity elsewhere as well. And there is a lifetime to spend on it, as one can see also: Bundle Rank, Graph Rank, Group Rank, Lie Algebra Rank, Matrix Rank, Ordinal Number, Quadratic Form Rank, Rank-Nullity Theorem, Rank Order Correlation Coefficient, Sequence Rank, Statistical Rank, Tensor Rank

But beware, it might be a trap. On the other hand, for some it might be a whole life. It will even give them some popularity in interested circles (here: of academic mathematicians). For others, it might well be a waste of time.

Excuse the poetry.

Ambert.
---
Currently travelling, meditating on the Creed. Might be back very soon.
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15 May 2019 22:14 - 15 May 2019 22:14 #338501 by Kyrin Wyldstar

Ambert The Traveller wrote: Hi. I apologize upfront for posting in this thread without having read the 100 entries that were added since I last caught up with it two weeks ago on page 5. I am sure it would very likely be a massive waste of time and I have so little of it these days.



Well by all means let me be the first to dis-invite you to post further in this thread that is such a waste of your precious and valuable time. I have no idea how you can give advice on a thread you have no time or inclination to even read so instead I suggest you travel to this place of infinite peace you speak of and let the rest of us have our conversations in as much peace.

This guns for hire, even if we're just dancing in the dark.
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Last edit: 15 May 2019 22:14 by Kyrin Wyldstar.
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15 May 2019 23:16 #338505 by Manu

Ambert The Traveller wrote: Hi. I apologize upfront for posting in this thread without having read the 100 entries that were added since I last caught up with it two weeks ago on page 5. I am sure it would very likely be a massive waste of time and I have so little of it these days.


What you probably meant: sorry if I missed something in this massive thread.
What it sounds like: I consider your arguments and opinions unimportant, so let me give MY advice.

Ambert The Traveller wrote: Just wanted to share with you that there is a place where there is Peace, Knowledge, Serenity, Harmony and the Force. This place is everywhere, outside of us, around us, and inside us. We can find and experience it in us. It is always there.

It might not look very popular, though, this place. For the simple reason that many can't see it. As they are busy proofing they are academic. Or popular. Or both. Or whatever.

Spotting or celebrating such a place might even be academic. but it doesn't have to be. At least not in the way how many academics might see it.

Sometimes it makes sense to break the cycle, and to acknowledge that the solution might not be directly related to the problem. If it does not work, do something different. If it works, don't fix it.

So if you feel that you can't find such a place in this discussion, try and go outside. Get some fresh air. And think about how you could live your life, or about the IP, the code and doctrine, whatever. Or if there are any substantial and wise thoughts you are having, you could also write them your journal.

In case some find this post weird, out of context, unrelated, or just provocative, I'm sorry. It's just that I am trying to study here about the Force and can't stand the noise. And that might, somehow, even be a bit academic.

By the way if one really wants to get all academic about rank, one could also decide to spend a few hours on getting lost in another kind of reasoning: mathworld.wolfram.com/Rank.html

More of that stuff might even get you some popularity elsewhere as well. And there is a lifetime to spend on it, as one can see also: Bundle Rank, Graph Rank, Group Rank, Lie Algebra Rank, Matrix Rank, Ordinal Number, Quadratic Form Rank, Rank-Nullity Theorem, Rank Order Correlation Coefficient, Sequence Rank, Statistical Rank, Tensor Rank

But beware, it might be a trap. On the other hand, for some it might be a whole life. It will even give them some popularity in interested circles (here: of academic mathematicians). For others, it might well be a waste of time.


What you probably meant: life is so full of wonder, if you get lost in mindless details you might miss out on it.
What it sounds like: stop talking about this useless stuff and go do something important!

Ambert The Traveller wrote: Excuse the poetry.


What you probably meant: Just my two cents.
What it sounds like: There. I just solved your problems with my wisdom. Not the thread you are looking for, move along.

“Remember, rewards come in action, not in discussion.” Tony Robbins
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15 May 2019 23:21 #338506 by Kyrin Wyldstar
LMAO... enjoying that popcorn Manu?

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15 May 2019 23:22 #338507 by Manu

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: LMAO... enjoying that popcorn Manu?


Always. :)

“Remember, rewards come in action, not in discussion.” Tony Robbins
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21 May 2019 07:34 #338643 by Adder
The main benefit of rank in a place with a system like this is to develop a platform for shaping shared growth rather then random shared interaction. Not to suggest one is better then then the other, but the former allows like minded folk to work some contextual depth rather then breadth.
Unfortunately like any attempts at building cooperative structures they are inherently vulnerable to abuse from both ends, being guru syndrome from above and trolling from below. Both are signs of self doubt IMO, because the former must pretend they are something they are not to have others counter their unwelcome truth (not being a guru) and the later feels out of the loop, dis-empowered and ignorant of things outside their control.
I think it's all just part of growing up ie learning to read the state of a process for what it is and not identifying oneself or others by participation in it. Anyway, that is why its about academics not not popularity... even though it can be seen like that for those in the later group, and in theory a platform for abuse from those in the former. So it's occurrence seems more about the individual doing it then the system that enables it IMO.

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21 May 2019 10:32 #338646 by Loudzoo
To take a step back here for a second (or one post at least) what this discussion seems to be about, at its core, is hierarchy.

Is hierarchy a good thing? On what metrics should people be moved, or move themselves, up (or down) the hierarchy?

To my mind, hierarchy is neither intrinsically good or bad. In our case it can be good if it allows those who dedicate time and study to develop competence in ‘living the doctrine’ to pass that on to others. That competence will take the form of some academic knowledge, some wisdom, but most of all - a demonstrated ability to live and embody the doctrine.

It’s just my hunch - but ‘popularity’ here - is closely correlated with an individual’s ability to embody the doctrine, and their dedication. This seems to apply irrespective of whether one’s rank is Guest or Grand Master.

Clearly hierarchy can be bad if it is based on anything other than competence with dedication. Time, effort alone, desire, power, nepotism, even just academics (the list is long) are poor metrics upon which to base a even a shallow hierarchy like the one we have here at TOTJO. They would ultimately lead to corruption.

All hierarchies are prone to corruption - and we, no doubt, have some here. There are different ways to address this. Through revolution, the hierarchy can be torn down from the ‘bottom’ up - but that almost never ends well. It often ends disastrously. Alternatively, competent, dedicated people can make their way up the hierarchy and collectively be the change they wish to see.

Another intractable issue is that even hierarchies that are beneficial for the collective are instrinsically unfair, on an individual basis. Competence and dedication are not equally distributed. Some will find it relatively easy to climb the hierarchy, others will find it nigh on impossible. There is no shying away from this.

One of the mercies of modern times is that there are a near infinite number of hierarchies available, appealing to the near infinite range of competencies that different individuals express.

We all have to ask ourselves:
why this hierarchy?
Are we suited to it?
Does that matter?
Can we change ourselves to match the competencies this hierarchy selects for?
Can we change the hierarchy, and the competencies it selects for?

The hierarchy will always be resistant to change - so, often, the question becomes - can we develop the competencies the hierarchy selects for? Do we want to?

Often people don’t want to change - so they go off and start their own groups with new hierarchies. Other, extremely competent people (as Kyrin pointed-out in the OP) don’t bother with the hierarchy at all.

The meltdowns, rage quitting, self-imposed demotions etc are the different ways that people remove themselves from the hierarchy - often when the hierarchy doesn’t match their expectations. Often, that happens because people are shocked by the flaws that all hierarchies suffer from.

The true Jedi here (whatever that means) are a diverse group spread across the hierarchy. Some content where they are, some moving in one direction or other, some removing themselves from it altogether.

It may be that in our hierarchy here - dedication to the Temple - counts for more than competence. That’s probably fairer than basing it on competence (I suspect we have more control over our dedication than our competence) but it will mean that competence is distributed across the ranks, and will be less likely to accumulate at the top. Whilst potentially fairer, it will make the top of the hierarchy susceptible, and potentially threatened by, competence residing lower down.

This strikes me as quite normal - and on my good days, nothing to get too upset about! One thing is for sure though - if one removes oneself from the hierarchy, one shouldn’t be surprised if the hierarchy stops listening!
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21 May 2019 12:05 #338649 by Gisteron

Loudzoo wrote: I suspect we have more control over our dedication than our competence

Maybe it can be argued that one can somehow somewhat manipulate how dedicated one gets to feel towards something. I don't recall ever getting to control that nor hearing of anyone who can, but much to learn do I still have, certainly. On the other hand, competence is a matter of skill. It is something I'd think one can learn, hoan, and train. Now this is not to say that a place claiming to be one of learning and training would actually help anyone get more competent at anything, though there were days where I'd have been happy to think of it as doing so. I take it, then, you suspect it isn't?


if one removes oneself from the hierarchy, one shouldn’t be surprised if the hierarchy stops listening!

And those who do not vote shouldn't expect their sovereigns to respect their concerns either, one might think. Well, maybe. Some might find this tyrannical, I don't feel too strongly about it. Since it is not like "the hierarchy" really ever started listening to begin with, I couldn't help but be surprised if it stopped, no matter my involvement.

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21 May 2019 12:34 #338650 by Kyrin Wyldstar

Adder wrote: . Anyway, that is why its about academics not not popularity...


Only those seen as worthy, regardless of academics, are chosen for Knight of the temple. But anyone can define their path as a Jedi and they can be a member of the temple though right? Wrong, There are Jedi here right now that are in good standing and yet being denied membership just because they are not well liked. Anytime personality and character are evaluated as a necessary component of inclusion that is a popularity contest that academics have nothing to do with.

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21 May 2019 21:38 #338667 by ZealotX

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Adder wrote: . Anyway, that is why its about academics not not popularity...


Only those seen as worthy, regardless of academics, are chosen for Knight of the temple. But anyone can define their path as a Jedi and they can be a member of the temple though right? Wrong, There are Jedi here right now that are in good standing and yet being denied membership just because they are not well liked. Anytime personality and character are evaluated as a necessary component of inclusion that is a popularity contest that academics have nothing to do with.


I understand were you're coming from and yet, if we're talking about leadership positions, then a person's character and likability are important (these things can be different from popularity though). Leaders represent the organization to the public. There are people on this site I would not feel comfortable with going on TV and saying they're Jedi Knights. It's just like how I wish society would screen people a little more before giving them badges and more so before making them police chiefs. And then there's always the chance that the wrong person gets into a position (if all positions are based on something they excel in) and brings in a bunch of their crony friends who may all excel in academics but are like mini Steve Bannons. A person can get in a position and divisive and brash and become a public relations nightmare.

It's one thing to know something. It's another thing to be that thing. Someone can know all there is to know about Jediism but does that automatically make them a Jedi? What if I study everything there is to know about Football. Does that qualify me to join the NFL? What if a person knows everything about singing and dancing. They've studied every move but have no rhythm. Are they qualified to be the next American Idol? What if there's a book work who has studied everything there is to know about every single religion but they have no experience actually dealing with people. Are they qualified to be a pastor? If a man has testicles does it qualify him to be a father or a husband? In virtually every sector it takes more than just having knowledge to lead. Every selection isn't going to be perfect and I'm sure part of any caution the council has learned to exercise is from choosing people who didn't fit and who may have misrepresented the substance and image of the organization. My point is that knowing a thing isn't the same as being the thing and even if the organization doesn't micro manage who can say "I'm a Jedi" they don't have to support each claim or give it a platform.

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