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Consistancy

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12 Jun 2018 16:06 #322831 by
Replied by on topic Consistancy
I respectfully and politely ask you to open Obi's thread again , we are not done yet....

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12 Jun 2018 16:25 #322832 by
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Locking aside, lets not loose the plot of this thread - I like where this is going: councillor is asking us as membership for ideas on managing rule infractions.

Your suggestion seems sound Ros, but I agree with Tris here saying there is an issue with timing.

Another aspect is single-sided approaches - someone may get a warning here for saying "Council are terrible they lock all our threads" ... That'd be single sided. But the simultaneous open discussion started about when and how we, as a community, think that thread locking should be used would be fairer.

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12 Jun 2018 16:36 #322836 by Tellahane
Replied by Tellahane on topic Consistancy
Remember that one time when people were jedi...
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12 Jun 2018 16:41 #322837 by Brick
Replied by Brick on topic Consistancy

Tellahane wrote: Remember that one time when people were jedi...



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12 Jun 2018 16:50 #322838 by Carlos.Martinez3
Replied by Carlos.Martinez3 on topic Consistancy
Aww John Williams missed his cue...start over.
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12 Jun 2018 16:53 #322839 by OB1Shinobi
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Consistancy

Twigga wrote: Locking aside, lets not loose the plot of this thread


Its almost like youre suggesting people should be allowed to have the discussions which interest them without others interfering. Very interesting. Imagine if we applied that basic principle to the whole forum and not just this one topic.
People are complicated.
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12 Jun 2018 16:54 #322840 by RosalynJ
Replied by RosalynJ on topic Consistancy
No it was not because I didn't like the thread. It was because a member brought it forward to my attention that it was against the guidelines in behavior unbecoming.

This is the problem. Every. Single. Time.

I don't have a problem with the thread or the conversation. When the thread was brought up in Council I was the one to ask to let it run.

Now I take too long. Now I'm not listening. Now this. Now that. I gave the reason. If someone wants to unlock it fine. As I say, I don't have a problem.

Every time we make a decision its not fair. Sorry. Its not going to be perfect.
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12 Jun 2018 17:00 - 12 Jun 2018 17:08 #322841 by Nakis
Replied by Nakis on topic Consistancy
My biggest advice is when punishing someone is to have their name, reason for punishment, punishment, clearly defined start date and end date, additional information about what and can not be done in the punishment, and the proper method of appeals. This should be posted publicly so everyone is aware and probably in the same place. If it's an issue in regards to confidential information, that information would naturally be sealed. The important thing is ensuring people know who, what, when, where, and why. This prevents accusations of strong arming or retaliation by higher ups against others.

I'm going to post the Code of Conduct for Amtgard

Warning: Spoiler!


This allows the leaders of a group to say "Bob is suspended from 6/1/2018 to 9/1/2018 for violation of code 3" without going into too many details.

This is an example of a notice of action that is posted in a public location for Amtgard, the rules for how you appeal is usually sent via PM with the rest of the message:

Warning: Spoiler!
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Last edit: 12 Jun 2018 17:08 by Nakis.
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12 Jun 2018 19:20 #322847 by
Replied by on topic Consistancy
I like the idea of looking to other organisations for how they handle these issues Nakis, and I also think it solves many problems that can come from having to hunt down a mod to ask for details on what happened with one of your temple buddies. It prevents mods having to reply the same to 30 different enquirers. I approve; but I don't personally believe in retributive (punishment based) justice - I'm a restorative/rehabilitation girl...

Obi, I'm not sure I 100% understood your response; but there was an opportunity in the second paragraph of my response for someone to start this thread . Under the current decisions/guidelines for when we, as a community, can lock threads, your thread fell into that category. Maybe those guidelines aren't the ones we want to be using any more.

I liked your thread. I think lots of people can appreciate your thread. It brought up lots of different ideas about inconsistencies and how we interact in the temple. I think a lot of different threads could be started out of it to clear up inconsistencies, and they will be further reaching, as they won't just be about one incidence focusing on one individual.

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12 Jun 2018 19:37 - 12 Jun 2018 19:39 #322849 by Nakis
Replied by Nakis on topic Consistancy
I wrote specifically about punishment to address community concerns about awareness, time frames, transparency, and appeals. In the spoiler below is my stance on rehabilitation/punishment :laugh:

Warning: Spoiler!
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Last edit: 12 Jun 2018 19:39 by Nakis.
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12 Jun 2018 19:41 #322850 by
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After the six month ban it resets? So someone could play nice to be let back in and go back to their old ways and start at the bottom of the ladder?

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12 Jun 2018 19:42 #322851 by Nakis
Replied by Nakis on topic Consistancy

Arisaig wrote: After the six month ban it resets? So someone could play nice to be let back in and go back to their old ways and start at the bottom of the ladder?


Could you please clarify who and what this is directed to? :)
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12 Jun 2018 20:03 #322853 by
Replied by on topic Consistancy

Nakis wrote:

Arisaig wrote: After the six month ban it resets? So someone could play nice to be let back in and go back to their old ways and start at the bottom of the ladder?


Could you please clarify who and what this is directed to? :)


The original post.

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12 Jun 2018 20:07 #322854 by Nakis
Replied by Nakis on topic Consistancy
I personally would imagine anything beyond that is up for a serious sit down to figure out what to do about the situation.
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12 Jun 2018 20:14 #322855 by
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Nakis wrote: I personally would imagine anything beyond that is up for a serious sit down to figure out what to do about the situation.


Yet it states that it resets.

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12 Jun 2018 20:27 #322856 by Nakis
Replied by Nakis on topic Consistancy
Ah, I read the chunk of text, not the text under it. Apologies.
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12 Jun 2018 21:37 #322860 by thomaswfaulkner
Replied by thomaswfaulkner on topic Consistancy

Arisaig wrote:

Nakis wrote: I personally would imagine anything beyond that is up for a serious sit down to figure out what to do about the situation.


Yet it states that it resets.


The time it takes to work up to the 6-month ban comes with a lot of space for intervention and reflection. That includes the time to have those challenging conversations, the time you spend developing the action plans, the actual time the person is has been banned, and the times of peace after the ban has been lifted.

Maybe the reset is to provide warning and guidance while they acclimate to the transient Temple culture? I think a few slap on the hands are appropriate as the person readjusts, but if the problems continue to persist after all that provided space, then we seriously need to look at the individual's intent and weigh that against our duty to protect and serve our members and guests.
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12 Jun 2018 21:55 #322864 by
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thomaswfaulkner wrote:

Arisaig wrote:

Nakis wrote: I personally would imagine anything beyond that is up for a serious sit down to figure out what to do about the situation.


Yet it states that it resets.


The time it takes to work up to the 6-month ban comes with a lot of space for intervention and reflection. That includes the time to have those challenging conversations, the time you spend developing the action plans, the actual time the person is has been banned, and the times of peace after the ban has been lifted.

Maybe the reset is to provide warning and guidance while they acclimate to the transient Temple culture? I think a few slap on the hands are appropriate as the person readjusts, but if the problems continue to persist after all that provided space, then we seriously need to look at the individual's intent and weigh that against our duty to protect and serve our members and guests.


Perhaps that's the point, but it seems ripe for abusing. Faking until they make it reset, then reverting to the original problem.

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12 Jun 2018 21:57 #322867 by OB1Shinobi
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Consistancy

Rosalyn J wrote: No it was not because I didn't like the thread. It was because a member brought it forward to my attention that it was against the guidelines in behavior unbecoming.



A civil conversation with a high level of community interest vs some arbitrary guideline that was made in a vacuum of hypotheticals. Maybe update the guideline?

This is the problem. Every. Single. Time.



Unfortunately, yes. Every single time you use your authority to shut something down or silence someone or to take away someone elses options it is going to bother people. Even when its justified. This really wasnt justified so it bothers people more.

I don't have a problem with the thread or the conversation. When the thread was brought up in Council I was the one to ask to let it run.


Well, thank you for that. Yet, here we are.

Now I take too long. Now I'm not listening. Now this. Now that. I gave the reason. If someone wants to unlock it fine. As I say, I don't have a problem.



Except that 1) it was you who locked it and 2) now if someone else unlocks it it looks like theyre taking a side against you. I dont really care who unlocks it. The discussion wasnt finished.

Every time we make a decision its not fair. Sorry. Its not going to be perfect .




No one here is asking for perfection, only to be allowed to have a conversation. Is this the reply you gave to the people who wanted Kyrin banned? Did you tell them "TOTJO's not going to be perfect"?
People are complicated.
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12 Jun 2018 21:57 #322868 by OB1Shinobi
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Consistancy

Rosalyn J wrote: No it was not because I didn't like the thread. It was because a member brought it forward to my attention that it was against the guidelines in behavior unbecoming.



A civil conversation with a high level of community interest vs some arbitrary guideline that was made in a vacuum of hypotheticals. Maybe update the guideline?

This is the problem. Every. Single. Time.



Unfortunately, yes. Every single time you use your authority to shut something down or silence someone or to take away someone elses options it is going to bother people. Even when its justified. This really wasnt justified so it bothers people more.

I don't have a problem with the thread or the conversation. When the thread was brought up in Council I was the one to ask to let it run.


Well, thank you for that. Yet, here we are.

Now I take too long. Now I'm not listening. Now this. Now that. I gave the reason. If someone wants to unlock it fine. As I say, I don't have a problem.



Except that 1) it was you who locked it and 2) now if someone else unlocks it it looks like theyre taking a side against you. I dont really care who unlocks it. The discussion wasnt finished.

Every time we make a decision its not fair. Sorry. Its not going to be perfect .




No one here is asking for perfection, only to be allowed to have a conversation. Is this the reply you gave to the people who wanted Kyrin banned? Did you tell them "TOTJO's not going to be perfect"?
People are complicated.
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