Spiritual college

I know there are some schools on it such as magical practice (This topic is for people who believe in magic, psychokinesis and spiritual abilities
I am kind of wondering why they aren't out there. It does not have tone strictly magic itself. Psychokinetic abilities, such as telekinesis can be practiced here. There are many colleges but I often wondered why isn't there one dedicated to magical studies

I know people are already going to bring up Hogwarts xD

This is the real stuff here and anyone who has practiced magic knows what I'm talking about.

It can be open to many faiths or lack thereof. People practicing spirituality with plants, rocks, spirits, and gods and so forth. People who meditate, visualization, classes that can help one protect them selves against malicious magic users or entities and so on. Practicing mysticism, chronokinesis. Many different kind of magic, psionics or energy work

If I have funding, perhaps I could fund something like this. A large college filled with magic users of many kinds and many faiths, Wiccan, Druid, Christian, Kabbalist, Sufi, ect. What do you think?
https://www.religiousforums.com/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Foyaop.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F08%2FFully-Funded-Scholarships-in-the-UK-at-University-of-Oxford.png&hash=d32d0cb018246cf1d68c6e77578a157e

Ohh wouldn’t that be grand - a whole wing of just magic plants and how to grow them or even magic applicable ! You would find me there like a excited school boy eager to learn my self !
Runes- cards - faith and stars . Yea sign me up !
One of the many joys of the modern day Jeddist is the ability to pick and choose their own array of practices and values, KINNA like being a human ! ( joke intended) happy seeking friend ! And may the Force be with you !

A lot of those classes that teach you spirituality are really online schools, which help I guess but personal experience I believe is much more effective. It's much more effective having them show you personally than through a computer screen. Some pagans daoists, mystics, and others have personal trainers. Would it not be more beneficial to you if your teacher was in front of you rather than just sending
directions via chat or e-mail? Even when it's done through Skype it isn't the same as personal experience.

You know University of Oxford in England or any famous well known large college? Think of that mixed with schools that teach magic, mysticism, herbalism, energy work ect. Even martial arts (As you are well aware chi and the use of it is very effective) There hasn't been one yet there are hundreds of thousands that practice energy work, magic, mysticism ect.

There are some esoteric schools that are actual buildings but they are often small. Not nearly as big as some large colleges. Like this

https://blogs.umsl.edu/news/files/2015/05/honors_college_818_460.jpg

This would apply to Jedi, Druid, Christian alike and many other faiths too. I know some who wished to have a jedi temple would like meditation centers, martial arts ect. It would be like this except including other spiritual practices. I wonder, why AREN'T there schools that practice esoteric studies this big? It wouldn't be just magic, but practicing many forms of psionics as well. Telekinesis, pyro and cryokinesis ect.

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: Ohh wouldn’t that be grand - a whole wing of just magic plants and how to grow them or even magic applicable ! You would find me there like a excited school boy eager to learn my self !
Runes- cards - faith and stars . Yea sign me up !
One of the many joys of the modern day Jeddist is the ability to pick and choose their own array of practices and values, KINNA like being a human ! ( joke intended) happy seeking friend ! And may the Force be with you !

And may the force be with you as well. Many blessings

I figured that would be a great way to learn many new things for the mind, body and soul. One can learn from another no matter how different one is to another

There are a couple reasons places like these aren't big or numerous.
For one, you look at two sorcerors sufficiently far apart and they will agree on almost nothing, and since all of it is made up and unfalsifiable by design, the way to resolve such disagreements is to either fight them out or leave each other be, because rational discourse or rigorous testing will not yield results.
Then of course there is the problem that unless you can trick people into giving you money for nothing, you have to actually sell them something they think has a market value. Unfortunately, however, magic is not a very marketable skill. You can sell your teachings or your magic powers to the desperate, the gullible, and those who already believe, but those that don't think you have anything to offer them are at best only going to be swayed by a demonstration that would convince them that there is something on offer there. This is difficult, if all you're selling is baseless woo-woo, and it is ever more difficult if your competitors already tried and failed to convince them, because it weakens their readiness to waste their time on you.
Lastly, once a place becomes marginally noteworthy for making decent money selling nothing smoke and mirrors, this invites abuse and charlatans. If you were an opportunistic person, you'd be a fool not to take a chance at making money for nothing. These parasites are often times not strong believers themselves, and not very long-sighted either. If they can cheat a few customers out of superfluid cash now, they'll do it, and if that will tarnish the business in the long run, so be it. That's why so much of the public thinks that anyone who is trying to sell them magic is just a liar, in it for easy money. This is not so for everyone, but the vultures are the ones leaving the final, most recent impression.

I made it sound like I'm talking of some witch's tent, but this applies to places of learning all the same. Arguably people are less expecting immediate results there, but the principles and the problems with it remain: You are, whether you understand it or not, trying to get people to invest their resources, whether it be material ones or merely their time, into something that is complete nonsense, hoping that what they come to believe will be greatly similar to what you do. One way or another, this goes against their self-interest in the long run, and while I wish you no misfortune in your efforts directly, they will be better off noticing it sooner, rather than later.

Gisteron wrote: There are a couple reasons places like these aren't big or numerous.
For one, you look at two sorcerors sufficiently far apart and they will agree on almost nothing, and since all of it is made up and unfalsifiable by design, the way to resolve such disagreements is to either fight them out or leave each other be, because rational discourse or rigorous testing will not yield results.
Then of course there is the problem that unless you can trick people into giving you money for nothing, you have to actually sell them something they think has a market value. Unfortunately, however, magic is not a very marketable skill. You can sell your teachings or your magic powers to the desperate, the gullible, and those who already believe, but those that don't think you have anything to offer them are at best only going to be swayed by a demonstration that would convince them that there is something on offer there. This is difficult, if all you're selling is baseless woo-woo, and it is ever more difficult if your competitors already tried and failed to convince them, because it weakens their readiness to waste their time on you.
Lastly, once a place becomes marginally noteworthy for making decent money selling nothing smoke and mirrors, this invites abuse and charlatans. If you were an opportunistic person, you'd be a fool not to take a chance at making money for nothing. These parasites are often times not strong believers themselves, and not very long-sighted either. If they can cheat a few customers out of superfluid cash now, they'll do it, and if that will tarnish the business in the long run, so be it. That's why so much of the public thinks that anyone who is trying to sell them magic is just a liar, in it for easy money. This is not so for everyone, but the vultures are the ones leaving the final, most recent impression.

I made it sound like I'm talking of some witch's tent, but this applies to places of learning all the same. Arguably people are less expecting immediate results there, but the principles and the problems with it remain: You are, whether you understand it or not, trying to get people to invest their resources, whether it be material ones or merely their time, into something that is complete nonsense, hoping that what they come to believe will be greatly similar to what you do. One way or another, this goes against their self-interest in the long run, and while I wish you no misfortune in your efforts directly, they will be better off noticing it sooner, rather than later.

As stated before, it's isn't just magic. It's spiritual power in general. The problem is people who think of magic or any kind of spiritual power think that they must be referring to the stuff they see in movies. That's not how it works. Anyone who practices herbalism for magical uses, magic, mysticism, psionics ect. knows what I'm talking about. It's a lot more subtle than people think. Another problem is when they see fake physics or people who claim to use such powers, they immediately think that everyone who claims to use it is also fake when that is not the case. There are fake ones and real ones and I have dealt with real ones in the past.

The thing is there are already esoteric schools even physical ones but not one of this magnitude. I suppose if it was going to get any business it would be in Minnesota. There are surprisingly a lot of pagans and spiritual practitioners over there.

I wonder how does one get funding for this type of school, or rather college.

Yabuturtle wrote: As stated before, it's isn't just magic. It's spiritual power in general.

Name it what you will, it is what it is.

The problem is people who think of magic or any kind of spiritual power think that they must be referring to the stuff they see in movies.

No, the problem is that unlike in movies, out in reality none of it actually happens, and so people are stuck thinking of fiction when ever you refer to it, because that's what it is.

That's not how it works. Anyone who practices herbalism for magical uses, magic, mysticism, psionics ect. knows what I'm talking about.

Yea, and yet none of them are willing or able to explain to someone who doesn't know what you are talking about what you are talking about. This is no different from saying that if only you believe hard enough, you will see the Holy Spirit acting in your life. It's make-belief.

Another problem is when they see fake physics or people who claim to use such powers, they immediately think that everyone who claims to use it is also fake when that is not the case. There are fake ones and real ones and I have dealt with real ones in the past.

No. Again, you are responding to a post you barely even bothered reading. There is no such thing as a real psychic. That's not an assumption, but a conclusion made from other highly successful and incontroversial assumptions necessary to assess nature around us. No, instead there are only those who believe the nonsense they spew, victims just as their followers, and those that don't and are consciously lying to others. I am not assuming because of the latter that everyone who claims to be psychic is being insincere. There is no need to attribute to malice what can instead be adequately explained by appealing to ignorance or delusion. None of them are correct in what they say, but only some are dishonest.

Gisteron wrote:

Yabuturtle wrote: As stated before, it's isn't just magic. It's spiritual power in general.

Name it what you will, it is what it is.

The problem is people who think of magic or any kind of spiritual power think that they must be referring to the stuff they see in movies.

No, the problem is that unlike in movies, out in reality none of it actually happens, and so people are stuck thinking of fiction when ever you refer to it, because that's what it is.

That's not how it works. Anyone who practices herbalism for magical uses, magic, mysticism, psionics ect. knows what I'm talking about.

Yea, and yet none of them are willing or able to explain to someone who doesn't know what you are talking about what you are talking about. This is no different from saying that if only you believe hard enough, you will see the Holy Spirit acting in your life. It's make-belief.

Another problem is when they see fake physics or people who claim to use such powers, they immediately think that everyone who claims to use it is also fake when that is not the case. There are fake ones and real ones and I have dealt with real ones in the past.

No. Again, you are responding to a post you barely even bothered reading. There is no such thing as a real psychic. That's not an assumption, but a conclusion made from other highly successful and incontroversial assumptions necessary to assess nature around us. No, instead there are only those who believe the nonsense they spew, victims just as their followers, and those that don't and are consciously lying to others. I am not assuming because of the latter that everyone who claims to be psychic is being insincere. There is no need to attribute to malice what can instead be adequately explained by appealing to ignorance or delusion. None of them are correct in what they say, but only some are dishonest.

So because you have never had such experiences, mine are null and void?

It would be like saying that I was abducted by aliens and then you say "aliens don't exist" Am I really going to listen when I already know they exist? No. You would do the same thing either.

I am not sure point you were trying to make. This thread is for people who believe in such things. If you say "I don't believe it is exists because I say so" is that really going to change anything?

It would be like me going to a Christian thread and say "Jesus doesn't exist" why would anyone listen to me? Are you trying to convince me that such things are not real because you say so? I have already have had experiences and will continue to have more. No one's opinion is going to change that.

Anyone who has practiced, as I say, knows what I'm talking about. Magic isn't about casting fire or moving mountains. It's way more subtle than that. Take it from me, a person who did NOT believe in such things because I thought I knew better and was wrong. I practice it and I know people who practice it. This thread is for people who use such abilities. You haven't gained anything by trying to convince me otherwise since I already know it exists. This happens especially when people haven't had such experiences until they do and realize it is real. I'm not going to pretend and think that every single person who claims to use powers actually has it because there ARE fakers out there. There is magic, spiritual power, working with plants, animals, mysticism, shamanism, telekinesis ect.

I know you've done this before (and with other users) on my topics where you have said "It is fake because I say so" and I'm not really sure why you have a problem with me. But you had said I did not read enough, yet you did not read the part where I said this is for people who believe and practice this. The best thing for you do to is to experience it like I have. Because some things are not so material and easily proven. Nothing more is to be discussed with this. Feel free to believe or not believe.

Yabuturtle wrote: So because you have never had such experiences, mine are null and void?

No.

It would be like saying that I was abducted by aliens and then you say "aliens don't exist" Am I really going to listen when I already know they exist? No. You would do the same thing either.

No, I wouldn't. I would listen.

I am not sure point you were trying to make.

Feel free to read what I said, if you're curious. If I was being ambiguous or too brief in places, feel free to ask for clarification.

This thread is for people who believe in such things. If you say "I don't believe it is exists because I say so" is that really going to change anything?

This thread is for any registered users. No test of faith is performed on submitting replies. The college you propose, too, could allegedly be open to any number of any faiths, or lacks thereof. To answer your question, though, if I said something as vapid as that, it would indeed not be going to change anything. But I didn't.

It would be like me going to a Christian thread and say "Jesus doesn't exist" why would anyone listen to me?

I cannot speak on their behalf, or on yours. You'll have to ask them, if they do listen to you, why they do.

Are you trying to convince me that such things are not real because you say so?

No, I am not. I do not recall having made any indication of that either.

I have already have had experiences and will continue to have more. No one's opinion is going to change that.

Fair enough. My opinion still can change. Probably will, too.

Anyone who has practiced, as I say, knows what I'm talking about.

They do know, but they won't show, or even explain. They only know for themselves, and among a few of their peers.

Magic isn't about casting fire or moving mountains. It's way more subtle than that.

So?

Take it from me, a person who did NOT believe in such things because I thought I knew better and was wrong. I practice it and I know people who practice it. This thread is for people who use such abilities. You haven't gained anything by trying to convince me otherwise since I already know it exists. This happens especially when people haven't had such experiences until they do and realize it is real.

I needn't take anything from you. You say that I am trying or was trying to convince you of anything. I have made no indication of that motivation. If you cannot be honest about things on record, why would I take anything from you of which there is none?

I'm not going to pretend and think that every single person who claims to use powers actually has it because there ARE fakers out there. There is magic, spiritual power, working with plants, animals, mysticism, shamanism, telekinesis ect.

Maybe there is. But if there is, then nature is not predictable, and thus any and all efforts to study nature should be futile and fruitless.

I know you've done this before (and with other users) on my topics where you have said "It is fake because I say so" and I'm not really sure why you have a problem with me.

No, you don't know that, because it never happened. You are lying, again. I cannot explain to you why I have a problem with liars. It's a very instinctive thing for me...

But you had said I did not read enough, yet you did not read the part where I said this is for people who believe and practice this.

Oh, I did read that. That's why you don't find me misrepresenting what you said about that. I didn't let it much impress me, of course, because it is an open thread in the Open Discussions section, rather than in some faith-based SIG, and as such I am as welcome to chime in as I could be in the college you are proposing.

The best thing for you do to is to experience it like I have. Because some things are not so material and easily proven. Nothing more is to be discussed with this. Feel free to believe or not believe.

Well, I'd argue that material things are not easily proven either... or proven at all, for that matter (no pun intended). But thank you for your permission to think all alone about it. Here I was hoping to leave it at a simple comment as to why I believe your project is not likely to succeed much on the scale you hope, but instead getting a lecture about the importance of make-belief.

Yabaturtle,
Your opening post concerns why there are no spiritual colleges “out there”. Admittedly for me it is difficult to sink my teeth into which is why I haven’t replied before now.

Gistron has attempted to answer your question. I have kept up with the thread and here is what I see. Gistron brings forth the following:
1. There are too many differing practices in order to come under one school
2.There are not enough monetary resources available for the task because there are not sufficient numbers of your target population.
3.. If people misuse the practices for personal gain, you will lose more willing students because of charlatans.
4. You would be building a school/ college on the basis of faith and there is a very small market for that which will undoubtedly shrink depending on how the teachings are used and by whom.
No matter how you slice it and dice it, these are fundamental problems which answer your question “why aren’t spiritual colleges out there” and they need to be overcome in order to make this venture successful.

I don’t believe Gisteron is calling anything you experience into question, but rather underscoring that there is no widespread belief. Asking someone to take something on faith and part with their money is not impossible. Any church can show that to be true and many self help seminars/books are the same.

One has to be an apologist though and not disregard alternative views, but persuade the viewer to your point. Until one can do that, one may be talking to a small, scattered group.

I understand. I know there are others dedicated to it but I have never seen one that was as big as Oxford or other colleges. Most of them are online and the few physical schools that are out there are rather small. Not enough to where people can live in it, like you can with a college.

Sometimes geography has something to do with it. Minnesota was one of the few I had in mind, because there are a lot of unitarian and pagan groups ect. that are over there. Of course this doesn't apply to those. Really anyone of any faith such as Jedi, Sufi, Shintoist ect can be a part of it. Some may gloss over the small schools because it is small. But if it was larger, people may have taken interest in it. I can see the problem of people may not trusting it or think it's fake. That's why I'd want to focus on a concentrated group so if they follow others may follow out of interest.

I often wonder what the Jedi demographic was. I know some others probably already made a thread, but I often wondered if they were really scattered or there was a concentration of them somewhere.

We do have Wiccan , Magik/Magic, etc., items in our Pagan studies Area in the Special Interest Groups section. Anything you wish to add or help with for the library in this area would be fantastic... Kit from our Council is the new Pagan SIG Advisor, would imagine she would welcome teachings, etc...

There has been a movement within academia to examine esoteric studies, primarily in terms of its historical practices, movements, development, and influence on culture, with programs at several large and well-established universities (University of Amsterdam has the best, imo). While it is a scholarly discipline, there are often dedicated practitioners scattered within it. As for why there's not more out there, "Esotericism and the Academy: Rejected Knowledge in Western Culture" by Wouter J. Hanegraaff has a good historical analysis of how post-Enlightenment Western scholars distanced from touching the subject even as it remained a vital force in most cultures (as it still is, whether there is evidence of the practices leading to beneficial outcomes or not.)

Having spent a good chunk of my life as both practitioner and academic, though, I do agree that esotericism is too small of an interest group to support having any kind of substantial college on its own. I think having a dedicated training & teaching facility will always be a dream for many of us who see what could be done with the legacy, but I really don't see it ever becoming more than a dream which at best inspires local or small private organization. One of the primary reasons is that "magick" has had to redefine itself as more of a cognitive art (related to communication and change-making) as technology has become able to do all that was historically promised by esoteric arts more easily and efficiently through the manipulation of natural forces. (There's also been some great work done on this out of the Esoteric Studies academic field). Ancient magicians were motivated by the desire of being able to do miracles that we can now take for granted, leaving few areas where the human mind has an advantage over machines. So it's not really surprising that these arts have become more internally-focused now (and in my experience, that has still been a very useful thing), but a lot of people are attracted more by the myth and lose interest when it's not as "fun" as they'd imagined.

And based on what I saw in my time in the field, it's very rare to encounter the tiny fraction of people with the interest who actually have the intention and will (not to mention time and resources) to dedicate themselves to anything beyond just reading and writing papers. I've watched a small full-time/live-in training group die out over the last decade because there were not enough new students coming in to replace those who had to move out due to life changes (such as our great competitors, Marriage and Career, LOL). It takes a massive amount of effort and sacrifice to do it even on a very small scale. However, the development of the Esoteric Studies interdisciplinary field within the existing universities, and its growth as an area of legitimate scholarly investigation, has been a very worthwhile (and enjoyable) alternative, for me.

It could be argued this is where the medical field and industries came from..... as I guess its an economic question.

It's relationship to time is probably the weakest bit of it. Delayed gratification is outside the forces which people relate to 'progress', for people are too busy satisfying themselves and grasping at change for changes sake. And, I think progress take time to grow it. The difference between change and progress in this context would be that change is unsupported and temporary (its greater if its more different then where it came from), while progress has foundation to build upon (its greater if its functionally related to where it came from)... as a way to understand my point (rather then pretending to be some hard definition). And so mass production probably allows too many failures to enter this topic as process. But it wouldn't be impossible I don't think, just expensive and not very useful to society. Any concept of mass production would have to be less about increasing the process output and rather be trying to systematize the inputs and flow to create a better result. Obviously no-one will support something which is breaking people or not delivering results... in a rushed and rough process. But what is the 'worth' of the end product, to the individual, to society, and to their capacity to survive and function!??

Maybe along the lines of what some others have said, a spiritual path as a product, doesn't seem to quite offer enough to support its existence and growth within an economic system. It's not really a trade as such, for example.... it doesn't create a product, but rather it could be said to deliver a service capability - so the service provided needs to be assessed for its worth to the economic system in terms of its use to people spending time to develop skill in it. What does it offer, the ability to teach others? If all your students are becoming teachers, then you're going to end up with a lot of teachers fast, and all selling the same 'service'. You can see how the supply and demand balance would quickly become lopsided if the training was easy or short. Mental health is one area it could offer some useful role in society and therefore provide some way for ones time to remain in touch for the economy - but that has risks and difficulties because again, breaking things costs money, and breaking people costs more then money. Physical health in the same way, and the science of it is basically within the field of medical and pharmaceutical sciences already.

As learning something which does not pay your taxes, put a roof over your head or food on your plate needs to be able to be managed alongside survival and living. So if its easy and fast, you get too many teachers and if its long and hard you need to survive in the meantime or be worth it in the end to redress being slower then the economy while learning.

TLDR; It''s true time is money but I'd also suggest that timing is wealth, and since there is not much business from spirituality other then teaching it to others, the demand of any marketable product of it quickly exceeds demand for it if too many sellers enter the market... killing its usefulness for anything other then a personal path. Which is why sects emerge because each seller needs to create an appearance of having a unique product to have any capacity to create a stream of demand to themselves, and the more this happens the more superficial the whole lot becomes.

Add; But its not impossible, just really expensive and a bit of a money pit I'd imagine... you'd have plenty of passionate people but..... it takes more then that to compete at the level of well run businesses (be it profit or non-profit). So how do non-profit's do it... donations I suppose, and that probably means appealing to the ideology of benefactors. What do the rich want to donate to.... seems to be usually health research and improving education. But then zany pastors preaching good vibes on peoples stim sets sometimes seem to be able to get massively rich from donations, but they are more like cults and I'd never advocate that approach.

I definitely get where people are coming from. It would be no doubt expensive. Many beliefs and religions started of small. Many were cults in the beginning and then became world religions. Of course it isn't really pagan studies so much as it is esoteric which is a wider range and geography will something to do with it. It would do better in a place with a higher concentration of pagans as opposed to catholic or protestant areas like Rhode Island or Mississippi. Just as if one wishes to built a Jedi temple, it would be preferable to do it in England than Laos.

It may not seem as useful, but it cannot be considered useful to study if people don't even know it exists or it is capable. If one knew it was possible to do these things, they may flock towards it.

I honestly believe that these types of schools aren't promoted by design. I mean schools that study dealing with the non"material" inhabitants of other dimensions. Also, the study of psyscho-kinesiology, "laying of hands", and other forms of energy-work..

It's not something that they want to share, nor should they.. at least not irresponsibly.. as for us, and the fact that it's all unified in "The Force" anyway, we should study objectively and share with practicality.. when truly needed..

Edgar Cayce is a good example. The selfish intent of those he wanted to genuinely help began to affect his health. So there's that. Then, in a way, you could be robbing people of the trail they're needing to pass..or just become society's bandaid on a festering wound.. or the fame and notoriety could corrupt us.. So personally, I would be cautious on how we use the knowledge we would gain from study.. trying to prove it to the world is pointless to me.. It will eventually prove itself anyway..

Just something to put out there:

Cherry Hill Seminary is a Pagan College that also certifies in things like "Pastoral Counseling" (with the Pagan aim, rather than Christian).

For a long time Sacred Well Congregation also ran a sort of Apprenticeship which could get you ordained as a Gardnerian Wicca.

There ARE schools out there, you just have to know what you're looking for.

There are, just not the ones I am looking for. Most schools are online and the ones that aren't are small schools and even then a lot of the courses are online, which is not bad. In my first post, it shows a big college, and I never saw an esoteric school that big, one where you can actually live in it.

Mine would be more eclectic, not just pagan studies or divinity, but metal working, wand making, martial arts, meditative styles, shamanism, mysticism, alchemy, ect. one can be a Jedi, Sufi, Kabbalist ect.