(14:31:52) Twigga: Are you ready to be peppered mercilessly with questions for the next hour?
(14:32:42) Alexandre_Orion: I don't know as I have the answers, but Yes
(14:33:42) Twigga: Could you kick off with a little background on what the Education Admin role is, what you actually do, what the responsibilities are, and then maybe what you ACTUALLY do?
(14:34:26) Alexandre_Orion: First of all, what I actually do is not at all what I thought I was supposed to do
(14:34:37) Alexandre_Orion: actually, truly, I do very little
(14:34:48) Alexandre_Orion: basically nothing
(14:34:57) Alexandre_Orion: I tried
(14:35:11) Alexandre_Orion: *when I took office, I asked several people to help
(14:35:51) Alexandre_Orion: we were going to stramline the educational endeavour of the TotJO to make all the levels interact
(14:36:15) Alexandre_Orion: make them flow more gracefully one into the others
(14:37:16) Alexandre_Orion: guided by the question : What are people actually learning here ?
(14:37:17) Twigga: (Chime in anyone with questions at any time) - my own to that is, what IS the educational endeavour of TotJO?
(14:37:41) Alexandre_Orion: the answer to that also seems to be, ironically : very little
(14:38:01) Alexandre_Orion: we come into the TotJO looking for something akin to self-empowerment
(14:38:46) Alexandre_Orion: to cultivate the openness toward wisdom
(14:39:00) Alexandre_Orion: to not feel that wisdom is a property one can possess
(14:39:15) Alexandre_Orion: no one "is" wise
(14:39:47) Alexandre_Orion: one may just be more or less predisposed to wisdom in certain contexts
(14:40:45) Twigga: So why is wisdom valuable then, if it's unattainable?
(14:41:07) Twigga: Why is it worth trying to teach it?
(14:42:16) Alexandre_Orion: one cannot really teach wisdom
(14:42:24) Alexandre_Orion: only how to be open to it
(14:43:19) Alexandre_Orion: that is by understanding what makes us closed to it
(14:44:11) Alexandre_Orion: the most certain blockage to any wisdom is thinking that one is already "wise"
(14:45:02) Twigga: An interesting trap to fall into! Coming back to your role here - I was surprised when it dawned on me that IP was part of a degree programme. Why is is that the A.Div is necessary for knighthood? Why aren't they just two separate things altogether?
(14:45:51) Alexandre_Orion: because the Apprenticeship to Knighthood does need a knowledge base ; it is one of our tenets –
(14:46:56) Alexandre_Orion: the degree aspect of Knighthood is to make sure that our Knights have enough theoretical foundation for taking perspective on the empirical
(14:47:19) Alexandre_Orion: theory and practice need to be close partenaires
(14:47:47) Twigga: And that sentence means... the one about perspectives on the empirical?
(14:48:26) Alexandre_Orion: we all tend to teach from experience
(14:48:32) Alexandre_Orion: that is the empirical
(14:48:37) Alexandre_Orion: and it is pretty sound
(14:48:39) Alexandre_Orion: but
(14:49:14) Alexandre_Orion: we can only teach from our own experience without a bit of study into the experiences, or the research, of others
(14:51:05) Twigga: Why is teaching, or the ability to teach, important?
(14:51:24) Alexandre_Orion: teaching is merely sharing
(14:51:34) Alexandre_Orion: sharing what one has learnt oneself
(14:51:45) Alexandre_Orion: (even the bits of it that is wrong)
(14:52:23) Alexandre_Orion: sharing the experience of re-learning with the learner (I really do not like the employ of the term 'student' in the TotJO)
(14:52:25) Rosalyn_J: True
(14:53:00) Alexandre_Orion: sharing the discovery that what we learnt wasn't right, or wasn't totally comprehensive
(14:53:30) Alexandre_Orion: reconciling what we think we know about the world to how the world really is
(14:54:25) Twigga: Is it possible to study for an A Div here without apprenticeship then?
(14:54:32) Alexandre_Orion: yes
(14:54:56) Twigga: How does that work?
(14:55:08) Alexandre_Orion: the degree is a pre-requisite for knighthood, but it can be pursued without the mentorship aspect of Apprenticeship
(14:55:19) Alexandre_Orion: one would just ask for lessons
(14:55:32) Alexandre_Orion: the curriculum is not set
(14:56:30) Twigga: Nice! I never knew that.
(14:56:32) Alexandre_Orion: it it were, it would be fixed for Apprentices too, which doesn't really work well with the instituition of apprenticeship : the learner getting the lesson s/he needs at the time
(14:56:47) Locksley: Why is that option available?
(14:57:21) Alexandre_Orion: as it were, for a learner who wanted only to pursue the degree, without becoming a knight later, just about any knight could offer a lesson
(14:57:48) Alexandre_Orion: 4the learner would just journal it as would an apprentice
(14:58:19) Twigga: But in the general forum, right?
(14:58:48) Alexandre_Orion: and then when 25 or so lessons had been done, we could evaluate the journal for awarding the degree (or not)
(14:59:05) Alexandre_Orion: yes, probably in the general forum
(14:59:20) Alexandre_Orion: although that could be done otherwise too
(14:59:50) Twigga: What happens after the ADiv?
(15:00:13) Alexandre_Orion: perhaps another forum added -- although there aren't too many who take the degree without apprenticeship
(15:00:24) Alexandre_Orion: after the ADiv is the BDiv
(15:00:39) Twigga: No apprenticeship there - how does it work?
(15:00:52) Alexandre_Orion: which consists in about the amount of study as two ADivs
(15:01:04) Alexandre_Orion: ...one moment please
(15:03:30) Twigga: ... *hopes it's nothing serious* ....
(15:03:33) Alexandre_Orion: ...back
(15:03:35) Alexandre_Orion: no
(15:04:06) Alexandre_Orion: not serious
(15:05:07) Alexandre_Orion: the BDiv is a continuation of the ADiv (for the moment - as I said, the curriculum is not set)
(15:05:29) Locksley: So, since the online medium is limited in a number of ways, what sort of things are looked for in journals (either for A.Div work of Apprentice-level work)? I mean, how can someone be judged , effectively, throughout their journal work as having reached a point of completion, especially when standardization of learning doesn't appear to be the focus here. What sort of rubrics exist (even ephemeral ones, lol)
(15:06:30) Locksley: An A.Div from an accredited institution would be at least two years of work, concentrating in a variety of subjects, for instance.
(15:08:03) Alexandre_Orion: good question, Locksley -- one thing that we would like to see happening is that in the beginning of a lesson entry one could describe why this lesson was taken, how the learner was to approach it and what happens as a result
(15:08:35) Alexandre_Orion: this makes judging the quality of a lesson a bit more apt, with more ample interpretations
(15:09:53) Alexandre_Orion: in that way, one may have a very successful lesson by discovering all they didn't know (and still do not) about the topic
(15:10:58) Alexandre_Orion: this is because in our postmodern, media-driven society, we tend to like to take on "lessons" that flatter what we want to think rather than those that challenge us
(15:11:46) Alexandre_Orion: the problem with standardisation of learning is that it assumes that everyone needs to learn the same things at the same time and in the same ways
(15:11:56) Alexandre_Orion: that is evidently untrue
(15:12:55) Twigga: And that would be something a knight/apprenticeship relationship would hope to tackle I suppose... How is that pressure to look into the "challenging" maintained with the BDiv?
(15:13:31) Alexandre_Orion: the challenging would be more intense in the BDiv
(15:14:03) Alexandre_Orion: ideally anyway
(15:14:08) Twigga: How does that work?
(15:15:04) Alexandre_Orion: not to say that the challenging should become a reductive string of questioning the questions to former questions ... ad absurdum ...
(15:15:46) Alexandre_Orion: but that many of the themes aborded in the ADiv could be revisited
(15:16:12) Alexandre_Orion: any convictions could be explored
(15:16:33) Twigga: Oh - like some knights choose to go through the IP a second time too?
(15:16:39) Alexandre_Orion: convictions are not necessarily good equiptment for people...
(15:16:49) Alexandre_Orion: the IP is a very good source
(15:17:40) Alexandre_Orion: the myth stuff -- it would be beneficial to go beyond Campbell with some of Campbell's sources and/or collaborators
(15:18:22) Twigga: So that's kinda where your "Flow-through vision" for education comes from then, from IP to B Div?
(15:19:29) Alexandre_Orion: Exactly -- much of the lesson work all the way through to the eventual MDiv could be as seen through the lense of the IP
(15:19:42) Alexandre_Orion: ...which we ought not get too far away from
(15:20:03) Alexandre_Orion: that is where we explore the Doctrine of the Temple too
(15:21:04) Twigga: Can you tell me some more about that? This is the first time the MDiv's been mentioned...
(15:22:14) Alexandre_Orion: We have always intended to offer degrees beyond the BDiv
(15:22:37) Alexandre_Orion: at one juncture, the MDiv was A&BDiv + Seminary
(15:22:49) Alexandre_Orion: yet, not everyone wants to become clergy
(15:23:19) Alexandre_Orion: as I see it, that isn't such a bad way to do it : one could study the Seminary without becoming a minister
(15:23:40) Alexandre_Orion: much in the same way that one could study the ADiv and not become a Knight
(15:24:03) Twigga: Right!
(15:24:13) Alexandre_Orion: indeed, one could take an Apprenticeship and decide against becoming a Knight
(15:24:31) Alexandre_Orion: But
(15:25:02) Alexandre_Orion: the thing to remember is not to be studying any of this stuff without having an idea about why one would like to learn it
(15:25:27) Alexandre_Orion: about accepting that some of the learning is going to seem counter-intuitive
(15:25:37) Alexandre_Orion: contradictory even
(15:26:26) Twigga: In what way?
(15:27:12) Alexandre_Orion: cultivating wisdom
(15:27:20) Alexandre_Orion: or humility
(15:27:23) Alexandre_Orion: or charity
(15:28:08) Alexandre_Orion: one cannot "claim" the characteristic that one is pursuing
(15:28:57) Alexandre_Orion: another may think that what I accomplish in a particular moment is wise -- yet, if I find my act wise myself, then it is foolish
(15:29:02) Alexandre_Orion: as am I
(15:29:41) Twigga: Any more questions anyone?
(15:29:55) Alexandre_Orion: or, in an encounter, I mwy be deemed humble, but if I myself am proud of my humility, then it is conceit
(15:30:06) Alexandre_Orion: et ainsi de suite
(15:30:07) Twigga:
(15:30:57) Twigga: Have you any advice for knights, who are now taking on the role of teachers, possibly for the first time?
(15:31:36) Alexandre_Orion: Yes -- talk with your learners sincerely and often
(15:31:47) Alexandre_Orion: be more of a mentor than a "teacher"'
(15:32:18) Alexandre_Orion: accept that it is a sharing experience, not a superior/subordinate one
(15:32:48) Alexandre_Orion: and that there is no pedagogical tool more effective than "care"
(15:33:02) Alexandre_Orion: love what you are sharing
(15:33:09) Alexandre_Orion: love who you are sharing it with
(15:33:19) Alexandre_Orion: the rest is merely detail...
(15:33:44) Twigga: Have you any advice for knights working out how to tackle their B.Div learning?
(15:33:44) Locksley: "and that there is no pedagogical tool more effective than 'care'" oooh, I love that. Gonna quote you on that.
(15:34:12) Alexandre_Orion: Thank you, Locksley
(15:34:55) Alexandre_Orion: and yes -- for Knights working out how to tackle the BDiv : ...continue "apprenticeship" but as a knight
(15:35:03) Alexandre_Orion: continue to work with a mentor
(15:35:56) Twigga: Have you any advice for Initiates helping each other through IP?
(15:36:04) Alexandre_Orion: but someone else who can suggest what lesson to take, why you need to take it and how to approach it
(15:37:29) Alexandre_Orion: yes, Initiates ought to be solidaire in their learning
(15:37:48) Alexandre_Orion: *they ought to rely on apprentices and knights for guidance
(15:38:08) Twigga: Nice.
(15:38:25) Alexandre_Orion: they ought to take it slow and not come to any conclusions
(15:38:41) Alexandre_Orion: there will be other conclusions in other circumstances
(15:39:10) Twigga: like?
(15:40:19) Alexandre_Orion: since myth is allegory for circumstances of life, it would be difficult to give a blanket "like"
(15:41:46) Alexandre_Orion: the dynamism of the subconscious will be adaptive to what the conscious mind is busy reconciling the absurdities of
(15:42:28) Twigga: With the academic standards of the temple meeting people from all walks of life, are there sometimes insurmountable impasses to progression?
(15:43:09) Alexandre_Orion: insurmountable, ... probably not
(15:44:17) Twigga: but?
(15:44:46) Alexandre_Orion: there are some for whom it will require a little more desperation before they are willing to drill through all the illusion of the hyper-real
(15:45:04) Alexandre_Orion: (I'll let Ros tell you what I mean by that)
(15:45:47) Twigga: Hopefully she will tell us about that in the thread after this transcript is posted.
(15:46:31) Twigga: I could carry on inventing questions, but I understand that it is evening - dinner time - where you are...?
(15:46:41) Alexandre_Orion: actually, she's going to kill me for putting her on the spot like that (she's one of my most earnest apprentices)
Then she'll tell you about it
(15:46:42) Alexandre_Orion:
(15:47:01) Alexandre_Orion: yes, it is nearly dinner time
(15:47:14) Alexandre_Orion: roasted chicken and ratatouille
(15:47:18) Alexandre_Orion:
(15:47:30) Locksley: Baudrillard!
(15:47:33) Locksley: This was great.
(15:47:37) Locksley: Thanks for taking the time.
(15:47:46) Twigga: If there are no more questions, I will thank you very much for your time, and everyone for coming!
*Note: Times are given in Newfoundland Standard Time. That's GMT - 2:30
Topic Author
