On Member Poaching
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6 years 3 months ago #310561
by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic On Member Poaching
It's always interesting to see the different views people have on TOTJO. I guess the first trick is not fully believing the narratives spun out by anyone (mine included), and instead seeing them as fragments of a broader truth - the question then becomes if and why your invested here, and how best to move forward in that regard. My view on the nature of this topic... is a bit TLDR.
Joining in 2011 (I think it was), I have never seen any rule about members not having their own related websites, nor not referencing that material content here. Just instead some rudimentary measures to minimize blatant poaching from other sites by flyinflyout members who'd join just to pop in and pitch their own now and then (it happens sometimes).
Talking about non-TOTJO learnings, theories, experiences, projects etc were all welcome. The focus of the rules seemed to be actually about promoting 'talking', not pitching. Talking being not only welcome, but desired!!
Actually the point seemed to be so much about getting members sharing and talking, that there even used to be a rule (or guideline) that even something like embedding a youtube video or linking to an offsite news article could not be posted without adding some of their own commentary to the post!!!! Which was really hard to enforce because it was violated so damn often
So how it seemed to work for my curious mind, and now as a continuously active member for about 6 years, and Mod for a few, is 'discussion' of broader Jedi community stuff was welcome and encouraged - but linking to offsite Jedi training content was not allowed without express Council permission. I think that still stands.
And as part of that, the 'only a Knight can teach' angle was to give some measure of safeguard in establishing some credential before using the Temple to support teaching.... so staff could focus on stuff like the new members and people needing help. And, perhaps along those lines, it is true for many years basically no links were allowed to any other Force Realist sites at all, because they mostly all had training probably. But recently, in the last 18 months or so, it has been allowed, if done discreetly and as part of a person enduring identity (like the sig or profile mentioned by Br John earlier).
But as always, Council permission could be sought, and was often given - especially for things like gatherings and other community related activities. Communication was encouraged, both ways, as required, to that effect to deliver the best outcomes for all parties, or the best compromise, using the rules or adjusting them if found wanting.
If people hadn't read the rules, and went against them, it was a red flag that it was deliberate as following the rules was a condition of membership AFAIK..... but to me rules serve as hard lines used when needed, and so all first breaches were treated as accidents. Moderation at that point was seen as a chance to welcome and educate about the rules, at first breach. Repeated breaches would of course make one wonder whether it was indeed deliberate action in spite of knowledge, or some nature of cognitive impairment by the poster. Either way communication was still paramount. Further breaches still would escalate the problem eventually to Council or relevant Councillor for possible suspensions, banning etc. During that process if the rules were found to be wanting then it would make sense to change them. But I've gone off on a tangent oops... so I was saying the focus was for members to discuss and share, and if wanting to teach to reach Knight before doing so.
Indeed, what 'was' actively supported and ideal for TOTJO was for all Jedi to become a Knight, and then have access to the free reign to teach what they wanted (within reason)!
It was never an 'only teach old TOTJO material' site... in my time here, and indeed up until recently Knights were encouraged to create their own lessons to go into the Degree system for awards at TOTJO! The possibilities of that system are quite diverse if one lets their imagination has some fun with it.
But of course you didn't have to do that to participate, rather just to teach.... so that senior members and Council had some idea of who you were, could focus on new member and people needing help instead, and the whole Temple could grow as a result to better serve all members.
So if anything, it was an open platform with a minimized set of regulations to allow the whole Jedi community to join in and participate. Or at least that potential was there, not to suggest it is the best way for everyone, but if people were open to putting in the work, sharing and building something - then the framework seemed setup to support it. There are not a lot of rules here compared to real world activity in my experience, but they are not perfect here either, by any stretch of the imagination.
It's a Temple, and Temples have rules of conduct AFAIK. Think of it as a Dojo, the staff know no-one is perfect including themselves, but change is the only thing that is guaranteed, and so I'd suggest that they watch to see how people react to problems - either helping or hindering in the ongoing change. Is it respectful, or using emotional contagion to stir up a mob mentality to bully change through, do they use official channels, or back channels, or stir up rumours and make threats... there are lots of examples to different ways people react to uncertainty. The best progress comes from the hardest struggles and in the conduct in the face of that represents ones true character.
I think it was all about supporting genuine member interaction - rather then just becoming another dumping place of adverts, links and promotions as members all rushed to meaningless ranks and awards while fighting over new arrivals. Dumping places like that don't need many rules, and a lot of the internet is like that.....but it was never what TOTJO seemed to be set up as while I've been a member.
Instead, basically a community of engaged people rather then a community of disengaged people.... sort of thing, with members perhaps considering how an online Jedi Temple would function best, and what would need to be done to make TOTJO that - a moving target for sure, but all good targets should be, and when done as a group activity, what sort of structure would facilitate experimentation and progress of that with respect to existing and future members. The internet is full of shallow potential, information dense, pools of goo. I guess its the goo in goolge or something!! lol, anywho, I don't think anyone would want a Temple like that, well I dunno, but not me.
But in regard to other sites specifically - sometimes other sites saw the rules here differently, as being about them, for TOTJO turned out to be most popular and as a result others would come here rather then us going there (which is good if for the right reasons). Smaller sites were happy to link out and assert 'community engagement' but at TOTJO I think the concept of community engagement was more about sharing and building rather then a url directory. At least the focus was on the former, and the later might need to be managed a bit so not to devolve into a marketplace - but not excluded necessarily. The site has gotten more and more 'community' orientated as time has gone on, and while the rules need a revamp the moderation has tried to change to better reflect the memberships expression (mostly by osmosis I think hehe).
So IMO the rules evolved from the idea to support all Jedi without allowing it to devolve into a marketplace of spin merchants. It's been a balancing act which has changed to try and meet the needs of members, and will continue to try and meet them. Procedure is in place to support errors by staff and members, because we make them all the time (hopefully not on purpose!!).
Now the structure here is not the best in the world, by a long shot, but its got a lot of potential if the right people want to work together to make it better!! It has its ups and downs, is run by volunteers which other responsibilities, sometimes goes forwards and sometimes goes backwards, and people often make mistakes but in theory communication and the Jedi focus should steer them to constructive conduct even in the absence of character, but the bigger problem is, it only takes a few holes in the hull to sink a cruise-liner, so that is when we get politics leak into the equation and things splinter into cells of trusted networks and the whole process repeats, if anyone is left standing. There might be a few bad eggs at all levels, who really knows for sure!! And things take a long time, which is a rare commodity, and maybe we all as individuals also could do better here, or elsewhere, or build it ourselves.... but this is just one site, if it means so much then work out the best way to help (if one can), and if it doesn't... then expect to run into some Mods now and then
But we can all learn from new good ideas or good ideas anew, so try to have fun!!!
If you made it this far, I hope I didn't get too dark or am out of line, I've been away for a bit lately... and I'll leave off the year by wishing everyone a safe and giddy Happy New Years!!!!
Joining in 2011 (I think it was), I have never seen any rule about members not having their own related websites, nor not referencing that material content here. Just instead some rudimentary measures to minimize blatant poaching from other sites by flyinflyout members who'd join just to pop in and pitch their own now and then (it happens sometimes).
Talking about non-TOTJO learnings, theories, experiences, projects etc were all welcome. The focus of the rules seemed to be actually about promoting 'talking', not pitching. Talking being not only welcome, but desired!!
Actually the point seemed to be so much about getting members sharing and talking, that there even used to be a rule (or guideline) that even something like embedding a youtube video or linking to an offsite news article could not be posted without adding some of their own commentary to the post!!!! Which was really hard to enforce because it was violated so damn often
So how it seemed to work for my curious mind, and now as a continuously active member for about 6 years, and Mod for a few, is 'discussion' of broader Jedi community stuff was welcome and encouraged - but linking to offsite Jedi training content was not allowed without express Council permission. I think that still stands.
And as part of that, the 'only a Knight can teach' angle was to give some measure of safeguard in establishing some credential before using the Temple to support teaching.... so staff could focus on stuff like the new members and people needing help. And, perhaps along those lines, it is true for many years basically no links were allowed to any other Force Realist sites at all, because they mostly all had training probably. But recently, in the last 18 months or so, it has been allowed, if done discreetly and as part of a person enduring identity (like the sig or profile mentioned by Br John earlier).
But as always, Council permission could be sought, and was often given - especially for things like gatherings and other community related activities. Communication was encouraged, both ways, as required, to that effect to deliver the best outcomes for all parties, or the best compromise, using the rules or adjusting them if found wanting.
If people hadn't read the rules, and went against them, it was a red flag that it was deliberate as following the rules was a condition of membership AFAIK..... but to me rules serve as hard lines used when needed, and so all first breaches were treated as accidents. Moderation at that point was seen as a chance to welcome and educate about the rules, at first breach. Repeated breaches would of course make one wonder whether it was indeed deliberate action in spite of knowledge, or some nature of cognitive impairment by the poster. Either way communication was still paramount. Further breaches still would escalate the problem eventually to Council or relevant Councillor for possible suspensions, banning etc. During that process if the rules were found to be wanting then it would make sense to change them. But I've gone off on a tangent oops... so I was saying the focus was for members to discuss and share, and if wanting to teach to reach Knight before doing so.
Indeed, what 'was' actively supported and ideal for TOTJO was for all Jedi to become a Knight, and then have access to the free reign to teach what they wanted (within reason)!
It was never an 'only teach old TOTJO material' site... in my time here, and indeed up until recently Knights were encouraged to create their own lessons to go into the Degree system for awards at TOTJO! The possibilities of that system are quite diverse if one lets their imagination has some fun with it.
But of course you didn't have to do that to participate, rather just to teach.... so that senior members and Council had some idea of who you were, could focus on new member and people needing help instead, and the whole Temple could grow as a result to better serve all members.
So if anything, it was an open platform with a minimized set of regulations to allow the whole Jedi community to join in and participate. Or at least that potential was there, not to suggest it is the best way for everyone, but if people were open to putting in the work, sharing and building something - then the framework seemed setup to support it. There are not a lot of rules here compared to real world activity in my experience, but they are not perfect here either, by any stretch of the imagination.
It's a Temple, and Temples have rules of conduct AFAIK. Think of it as a Dojo, the staff know no-one is perfect including themselves, but change is the only thing that is guaranteed, and so I'd suggest that they watch to see how people react to problems - either helping or hindering in the ongoing change. Is it respectful, or using emotional contagion to stir up a mob mentality to bully change through, do they use official channels, or back channels, or stir up rumours and make threats... there are lots of examples to different ways people react to uncertainty. The best progress comes from the hardest struggles and in the conduct in the face of that represents ones true character.
I think it was all about supporting genuine member interaction - rather then just becoming another dumping place of adverts, links and promotions as members all rushed to meaningless ranks and awards while fighting over new arrivals. Dumping places like that don't need many rules, and a lot of the internet is like that.....but it was never what TOTJO seemed to be set up as while I've been a member.
Instead, basically a community of engaged people rather then a community of disengaged people.... sort of thing, with members perhaps considering how an online Jedi Temple would function best, and what would need to be done to make TOTJO that - a moving target for sure, but all good targets should be, and when done as a group activity, what sort of structure would facilitate experimentation and progress of that with respect to existing and future members. The internet is full of shallow potential, information dense, pools of goo. I guess its the goo in goolge or something!! lol, anywho, I don't think anyone would want a Temple like that, well I dunno, but not me.
But in regard to other sites specifically - sometimes other sites saw the rules here differently, as being about them, for TOTJO turned out to be most popular and as a result others would come here rather then us going there (which is good if for the right reasons). Smaller sites were happy to link out and assert 'community engagement' but at TOTJO I think the concept of community engagement was more about sharing and building rather then a url directory. At least the focus was on the former, and the later might need to be managed a bit so not to devolve into a marketplace - but not excluded necessarily. The site has gotten more and more 'community' orientated as time has gone on, and while the rules need a revamp the moderation has tried to change to better reflect the memberships expression (mostly by osmosis I think hehe).
So IMO the rules evolved from the idea to support all Jedi without allowing it to devolve into a marketplace of spin merchants. It's been a balancing act which has changed to try and meet the needs of members, and will continue to try and meet them. Procedure is in place to support errors by staff and members, because we make them all the time (hopefully not on purpose!!).
Now the structure here is not the best in the world, by a long shot, but its got a lot of potential if the right people want to work together to make it better!! It has its ups and downs, is run by volunteers which other responsibilities, sometimes goes forwards and sometimes goes backwards, and people often make mistakes but in theory communication and the Jedi focus should steer them to constructive conduct even in the absence of character, but the bigger problem is, it only takes a few holes in the hull to sink a cruise-liner, so that is when we get politics leak into the equation and things splinter into cells of trusted networks and the whole process repeats, if anyone is left standing. There might be a few bad eggs at all levels, who really knows for sure!! And things take a long time, which is a rare commodity, and maybe we all as individuals also could do better here, or elsewhere, or build it ourselves.... but this is just one site, if it means so much then work out the best way to help (if one can), and if it doesn't... then expect to run into some Mods now and then
But we can all learn from new good ideas or good ideas anew, so try to have fun!!!
If you made it this far, I hope I didn't get too dark or am out of line, I've been away for a bit lately... and I'll leave off the year by wishing everyone a safe and giddy Happy New Years!!!!
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